Reloading .50AE without published data for components.. am i gonna die?

[swankaj]

Hey there,

This is going to be the first set of rounds that I have ever reloaded. I'm going to be using IMR4227, winchester LP/LPM primers, and Rainier 335gr HP plated bullets. Now, the problem I was facing was that I was being super cheap to reduce overall cost. Having done this, there is no published data for the specific weight of the bullets I purchased.

I have done the math to scale back the powder charge using published data for this powder and a 325gr bullet. Is this a good idea? I pulled data from handloads.com as well as hodgdon's manual for reloading with 4227. After scaling back the data it equates to 26.9gr of powder using the data from handloads, and 28.13gr instead of the original 29gr using data from hodgdon.

All of my reasoning assumes that the percentage increase in bullet weight should reflect an equal percentage decrease in powder charge.

Is this a safe plan? Alternatively, does anybody have data for this powder/bullet combination? I was going to load up the 28.13gr this weekend and give it a shot.

Thank you in advance for any and all input you may have for this novice reloader!

[chris in va]

I'm consulting my Lyman manual.

It shows a 325gr JHP at 29.5-31 of 4227. Now plated has to be loaded using bare lead data, but as the Desert Eagle can't use lead, you'll need to back off a bit when using jacketed data.

Another thing to keep in mind is the gas system of the DE. I'm sure it needs a certain gas volume/pressure to cycle the action properly, so it sounds like your plan is fairly sound...but others can comment further.

[JT-AR-MG42]

You actually do not mention the gun you are loading for.
The Freedom Arms revolvers are very strong and built for pressures far above the 50 AE's 36,000 SAAMI rating.
The Desert Eagle is a very powerful sidearm that comes with the price of recoil springs that wear relatively quickly in 50 AE or .440 Corbon.
I have no experience with the Automag V in 50 AE and so cannot not recommend any loads for it.

I load and shoot a lot of the 335s in a Desert Eagle and 4227 has always been my powder of choice.
Speer cases with W-W standard LP primers, 31 grs. IMR 4227, and the Rainier 335 gr. solids.

If there is any published load data (either by the bullet or powder manufacturers), I have never seen it.

I can refer you to my post - No. 11 in this thread - for my experiences with that combo.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551559

I'll add that I have had no problems with this load at all.
Always intended to set up the PACT chrono for my load, just need to get around to it.

JT

P.S. You show great sense in starting lower and working your way up.
In your favor.
You can not double charge 4227 in any pistol case!
Stay safe and let us hear back with range results.

[Pond, James Pond]

I've had to do this for .44Mag: a mish-mash of primers, bullets, powders and cases that are never listed together in any one place and in the cases of the bullets have never even had published data for them: not easy.

On the plus side I had the relative buffer of handloading for a Redhawk, so at least it would not explode in my face unless I was very careless.

The way I approached it was to look up as many comparable bullet types with my chosen powder and look for min and max charges to get any idea of the range of charges for that powder under that bullet weight. Same goes for OAL: looking for same weight, construction and profile bullets to see if there was a trend. In my case a cannelure on a few of the bullet types helped. From there I picked a lower-end-of-the-scale charge weight and built a 0.5gr incremental ladder up to what looked like a likely max.

Before loading anything, I ran my rationale passed people on here to make sure I had not overlooked anything. Pointers were given, recommendations were made. From there I loaded the cases and then went to the range to try them out. On one occasion I did check to see how the powder fill and cannelure depth compared and had to avoid the higher charge weights due to what looked like would be a compressed charge. I saw no reason to add that to the precarious equation.

6 cartridges at each increment, all of them over a chronograph to check if velocity increased in proportional increments, extraction was monitored (easier on a revolver) and cases inspected carefully before loading the next lot.

In the end I opted for 20.5gr of N110 under a 240gr FMJFN bullet with a standard LP primer. That develops about 1345fps in a 4" Redhawk. During testing I ditched 21gr and 21.5gr due to a couple of split cases and a bit of a velocity jump in the case of the latter.

Do some research, get members to assess your conclusions by peer review, don't reject any advice outright: consider it all first then decide. If your gut tells you something is not right or a bad idea: listen to it! Resist any urge to run out there this weekend without some feedback, just because you're chomping at the bit: there is wisdom in prudence and no shame in being ignorant (provided you are willing to learn).

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Swankaj,

Welcome to the forum.

Are you going to die? Well, yes, we all are someday. I just don't know when or how.

Originally Posted by swankaj

All of my reasoning assumes that the percentage increase in bullet weight should reflect an equal percentage decrease in powder charge.

Unfortunately, no. Powder and pressure relationships are exponential, not linear, so simple interpolation doesn't work well. To add to the problem, the exponent required varies with the powder and cartridge and bullet. It doesn't just depend on bullet weight, though that gets you close, but also on bullet construction. That is, the harder the bullet is to push into the rifling the higher the start pressure so the more quickly the powder reaches the peak and the higher the peak is. Your bullets are softer than the jacketed bullets you are comparing to, which lowers pressure a little. On the other hand, your bullets are 0.030" longer, so they use up more of the powder space in the case, and that raises pressure a little.

Bottom line: You will actually be able to use a bit more powder than you thought.

I put the Hodgdon 29 grain load in QuickLOAD with the Speer bullet and COL used by Hodgdon and adjusted case capacity until I had a matching velocity. I noted the pressure and put the Ranier bullet in and tweaked the load back until I had a match to that pressure. I did the same for their 30.8 grain load. For the Hodgdon load range the correction factor is not exactly the same at the high and low end, but the errors are only on the order of a couple hundredths of a grain; too small not to fall well inside normal shot-to-shot variation from primer variation, powder position, etc. The Hodgdon loads are 29.0 grains and 30.8 grains. QuickLOAD put the equivalents with your bullet at 28.09 and 29.81 grains under the Ranier bullet, with pressures at 26,610 psi and 32,490 psi, respectively.

Those loads have only a 6% spread from start to finish, which is unusually small. Load data usually gives 10% from start load to maximum load. Also, there is no pressure result listed, so these were not fired in a SAAMI test barrel on a universal receiver, but rather were fired in a Desert Eagle (based on the barrel length). For that reason, I expect the starting charge was based on cycling reliably. Your heavier bullet will be going a little bit slower, giving more time for gas pressure to act on cycling, so you can probably work your load up from a little further down than the load conversion would indicate. Moreover, you are using Winchester primers instead of the CCI350's used by Hodgdon, and that can affect pressure in either direction, though usually not by a lot. You may be using a different brand of case with different internal capacity, and that can affect the pressure, though, again, usually not by a lot.

Bottom line: With no guarantees, in your shoes I would start with 26.8 grains and work up toward 29.8 grains, watching for pressure signs. If you have a chronograph, you can watch for velocities similar to Hodgdon's. If you get very different readings, though, your chronograph may not be matching theirs. Search for posts on checking calibration. Have the unit out at 15 feet from gun muzzle to midpoint between screens, like Hodgdon does.

Chris in va suggested lead data has to be used with plated bullets. That true for some plated bullets—mainly ones with thin plating—and not others. In Ranier's case, it is not true. From Ranier's site:

Originally Posted by Ranier

"Rainier recommends using commercially published jacketed bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using jacketed bullet load data."

That is why I used the Hodgdon jacketed data as a base for matching pressures.

[skizzums]

Fantastic post unlcenick

[swankaj]

Wow! I did not expect to receive so much detailed information! I suppose this thread speaks volumes about the insight and helpfulness of the community in this forum. Thank you all very much, especially JT-AR-MG42 and Unclenick! I'm sorry I failed to mention what I planned on shooting these rounds out of. You all were correct in assuming a 6" Desert Eagle. I guess if I was going into this situation blind I wouldn't have been terribly off starting at 28.13gr, considering QuickLoad had me start at 28.09gr. Four hundredths of a grain ain't a bad margin of error! Having read the entirety of this thread and the thread JT-AR-MG42 linked to, it seems that people have had a lot of success using max loads with this powder, and even compressed loads from the sound of it. That being said, what is the reasoning behind starting at 26.8gr? To cover the 10% spread you mention was absent? That would mean 26 grains probably wouldn't cycle the slide right? Would it be an awful idea to start at 28gr for simplicity's sake? That way I would be spending less time with the inertia puller in my basement disassembling under/overloaded shells once I have my results. It wouldn't be a big deal, but still please advise. I wouldn't have a problem with starting at 26.8.

Also, when I'm trying out a new load how should I test the spread? Load 5 rounds at each half grain interval of powder and take them out and shoot them in ascending order?

[swankaj]

+I also forgot to ask;

When I'm setting the COAL with the seating die would it be okay to use a factory round (hornady custom 325gr HP) as a template and just copy it with the rainiers? It has been mentioned that the rainier projectiles are a hair longer but it doesn't seem to matter that much right? Also, to crimp or not to crimp?

[JT-AR-MG42]

I always load 10 of each load that I'm trying.
5 for 25yd. group, the other five for back-up for a pulled shot and/or just plinking and getting more trigger time.

I've never seen a round of factory 50 AE, much less shot any. Two bucks apiece is too steep for me.

Away from my notes, but IIRC, seating to 1.590.
This set-up feeds fine for me, although I had to fill the grooved magazine followers with epoxy to match the later flat followers.
I use RCBS dies and bought a spare taper crimp die.

I don't know if the Hornady or C-H dies come with a taper crimp/seating die or not.
The 50 AE in the DE headspaces on the case mouth, so no roll crimping.

JT

[Jeff2131]

I recently ran into a.similar issue....50 beowulf. I had imr4227 and 335gr rainer FPs. I could not find the load data for this combo and both hodgdon, rainer, and alexander arms could not and would not give me any info. I decided that it was safest to wait until i found the.one and only powder listed for this combo....lil gun. Finally found a 4lber and im good to go. After seeing the post on here inwhich someone blew there gun and hand apart, i WILL not EXPERIMENT or stray from published data.

On a side note, i mistakenly left a bit of powder in my hopper for about two weeks, went to reload some 308's and couldnt remember what powder was in there...ugh. first time in five years ive done that. Rather then guess or roll the dice i decided to just add it to my garden and chaulk it up as a loss. Again,thanx to that post awhile back.

[mboylan]

Assuming that powders have linear pressure curves and that you can do the math you did will eventually get you hurt. Pressure curves are just that, curves. They are not linear. Your math does not work. The load you are suggesting just happens to be safe.

QuickLoad is a good investment if you want to experiment. It's just not 100% all the time.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by chris in va:
Now plated has to be loaded using bare lead data, but as the Desert Eagle can't use lead, you'll need to back off a bit when using jacketed data.

As posted before from Rainier's website......

Rainier recommends using commercially published jacketed bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using jacketed bullet load data.

Most all bullet manufacturers have a FAQ on their websites or a "contact us" link. I've found they are generally quick and concise in replying to questions about their products. This is why I will generally go there first when I have questions. One of those straight from the horse's mouth things.