Can anyone ID this rifle?

RebBacchus · January 10, 2016, 02:44 AM

My nephew received it upon the death of his grandfather. It might be a war trophy, he fought in both WWII & Korea. I think it's s Chinese copy of a Russian

I have other photo but I can't seem to get them loaded

RebBacchus · January 10, 2016, 02:49 AM

Trial

RebBacchus · January 10, 2016, 02:51 AM

I hope this helps, the photos keep changing

RebBacchus · January 10, 2016, 02:53 AM

I do have several others but I need to reduce them first

Jimro · January 10, 2016, 04:30 AM

Looks to me like a Type 99 Arisaka rifle with a scrubbed Mum.

WWII Japanese era.

Jimro

gyvel · January 10, 2016, 04:56 AM

Jimro is correct. Type 99 WWII Japanese Arisaka rifle, cal. 7.7. Norma used to load it, but I don't think anyone is loading it now with the possible exception of Prvi Partisan.

**44 AMP** · January 10, 2016, 09:46 AM

WW II Japanese Arisaka, Type 99 cal 7.7mm Jap. Bolt handle is typical of late war production.

The ground spot on the receiver was to remove (or deface) the Imperial Chrysanthemum, indicating the rifle was most likely surrendered, and not a battlefield pick up.

Ballistic performance of the round is approximately equal to the .303 British, and uses the same bullets (.312" bore).

Functional cases can be formed from .30-06 brass. Commercial brass was available from Graf & Sons at one time, but I do not know if they currently are.

Armed_Chicagoan · January 10, 2016, 04:27 PM

I've seen 7.7 Japanese at Cabela's recently. I'd just buy a hundred rounds of loaded ammo and then reload the brass. Or less, it's hideously expensive.

eta: I think it was Norma not PPU

RebBacchus · January 11, 2016, 02:52 PM

THANKS!!! I've sent the info to my nephew

Blindstitch · January 11, 2016, 02:58 PM

I believe Norma and Hornady load for it. And PPU produces cases.

kilimanjaro · January 11, 2016, 04:04 PM

You can find loaded ammo in gunshops that have been around for a while, they stocked a case back in 1982 and still have some laying around.

Just buy some ammo or brass and reload your own, it's not that tough.

At war's end, every serviceman in the Pacific got one of these. My Dad's carrier came in to dock at Tientsin in 1945, there was a literal mountain of Arisaka rifles and other trophies on the dock. Everyone on the ship got to select a rifle. The Mum was ground off at a work station while the trophy paper was filled out with the man's name and rank. For a dollar and a smile with the swabbies tasked with the grinding work, you could bypass the Mum grinding, depending on how much the officer in charge cared about not disgracing the Emperor.

Officers got to select from a pile of pistols and swords, higher ranks could get one of each. Unground rifle Mums were more common with rank, too.

On the voyage home in 1946, a rifle was $2, pistols were $10, and swords were $50 in equivalent in the shipboard gambling sessions, according to my Dad.

johnwilliamson062 · January 11, 2016, 10:59 PM

Quote:

For a dollar and a smile with the swabbies tasked with the grinding work, you could bypass the Mum grinding, depending on how much the officer in charge cared about not disgracing the Emperor.

I wasn't there, but my understanding is the mums were ground off by the Japanese before they were surrendered.

Gunplummer · January 12, 2016, 05:12 AM

Nobody knows for sure. It has been a topic for debate since the end of WWII.

F. Guffey · January 12, 2016, 08:54 AM

Quote:

I've seen 7.7 Japanese at Cabela's recently. I'd just buy a hundred rounds of loaded ammo and then reload the brass. Or less, it's hideously expensive.

It can be expensive, it does not have to be. I form 7.7mm Japanese cases from 30/06 cases with two methods, one I use a 7.7 Japanese forming die; the other way is to use a 308 W forming die.

The advantage to forming 7.7 cases from 30/06 cases is the extra length of the 30/06 case. A case forming reloader can off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case.

F. Guffey

kilimanjaro · January 12, 2016, 12:51 PM

Maybe somewhere the Mums were ground off by the Japanese, but Dad told me there was a line of Americans with grinders doing the work on the dock his carrier was berthed at. It was the same throughout the harbor.

James K · January 12, 2016, 01:31 PM

There are many stories about those ground "mums", even claims that the Japanese troops carried files so they could remove the crest before surrendering!!

The only story that seems sensible, and one I have seen quoted from both American and Japanese sources is that when the Americans seized Japanese depots, mainly in Japan itself, Japanese workers ground off the crest. That was because it would be dishonorable to turn a rifle with an intact crest over to foreigners. Was it ever done by Americans? Maybe, but if the rifle was in American hands already, there would have been no point.

It was widely known at the time, that a ground crest meant a rifle taken from a depot, so many Americans had to figure out a story that would explain how the rifles they captured in hand-to-hand combat with Tojo himself had ground crests.

The best one I heard from a vet was that he captured the rifle after fierce jungle combat but after he brought it home, the FBI came and took it and when they returned it the crest had been ground! According to the vet, Harry Truman kept a personal record of all those captured guns and who had them so that he could have them ground to keep his secret deal with Hirohito!! (Of course, the vet had never been west of San Diego, but what did that have to do with a war story?)

Jim

**44 AMP** · January 12, 2016, 09:24 PM

While it is most likely done as James K suggests there apparently are some cases where mums were ground (or filed defaced) by US troops, no doubt at the order of some brass hat who felt showing "respect" would be good for US/Japanese relations.

I can also see guys detailed to that task skipping a rifle for a buck, or a beer or some smokes, when the brass wasn't looking over their shoulders...

I'm afraid only the people who were there are the time can say with certainty, and very, very few of them are around to ask these days, and soon, none will be.

F. Guffey · January 12, 2016, 11:52 PM

The story about the mums could start with “Once upon a time”. It could start with; once upon a time there was a General named Douglas MacArthur that arranged to have the mums ground off as one of the conditions of surrender.

F. Guffey

James K · January 13, 2016, 12:26 AM

MacArthur deserves a bit of understanding, if not sympathy. He was going to take over a country whose leaders had surrendered under extreme duress (two A-Bombs). But the Japanese people still considered the emperor to be god, and were fiercely loyal to him. One word from him, and the U.S. military would have faced a revolution and had to slaughter millions of civilians or be overrun and killed. So, yes, Mac made deals with the Emperor's faction, the major one being to allow Hirohito to remain in power, though he had to renounce any claim of godhood. I have no idea where the removal of the imperial crest (actually the family "mon" of the emperor) came from, but I suspect it was of Japanese origin, part of the process of "saving face".

As others have said, there is probably no definitive answer to the many questions. But if American troops were ordered to grind off "mums", there would have to have been a written order to do so, and thousands of copies made; I know of no such order. Further, the loss of face occurred when an enemy infidel touched the imperial symbol; once it was in American hands, the dishonorable deed was done; it would have been too late to prevent it.

Regardless, it is pretty safe to say that Harry Truman was too busy to keep track of all those Arisakas and have the FBI grind off the crests. That vet just might have been fibbing a little.

Jim

F. Guffey · January 13, 2016, 09:33 AM

I like the part about ‘once upon a time’. it was during this time politically correct was first used. Seems it was explained there was no way to pick up ’poopoo’ from the end that did not smell; or there were those that thought it could be done.

F. Guffey

gyvel · January 13, 2016, 03:32 PM

"Legend" has it that an unground mum was supposedly a battlefield pickup, while the ground mum was a weapon that was confiscated from the government.

As was pointed out, the only ones who can say for sure are dying off rapidly.

wogpotter · January 13, 2016, 05:31 PM

Quote:

I have no idea where the removal of the imperial crest (actually the family "mon" of the emperor) came from, but I suspect it was of Japanese origin, part of the process of "saving face".

According to an older Japanese gentleman I know it was considered an emblem of surrender, much like the Gauls Vercingetorix handing the shield to Caesar after the Battle of Alesia. By defacing it (removing the Mum), they were only surrendering the physical object, not it's "power".
By removing it they had surrendered with "ON", that mysterious system of "tit for tat (plus a bonus)", that pervades so much of Japanese culture & history.

tahunua001 · January 31, 2016, 01:31 AM

ammoseek is currently showing PRVI, precision cartridge, Grafs and Hornady Available in various places around the interwebs. as far as I know PC is reman ammo, hornady uses PRVI brass and grafs is just store brand ammo made by hornady for Graf and sons. the hornady stuff is good, my 6.5 japanese will hit a 12 inch gong at 550 yards with it, the 7.7 needs sight adjustment but I think could do similar after that. $1.50 a round is not outrageously expensive considering it's all either spire point, Amax, or SST ammo. a buck fifty per round for competition and hunting ammo, is pretty standard regardless of caliber.

Riceone · March 15, 2016, 10:09 AM

I have a 35th series taken from the arsenal at Hiroshima after the bomb was dropped. According to the serial number it was made in the last week before the bomb and it has the intact mum and to this day looks brand new. A lot of fabrication in all these stories. riceone

**44 AMP** · March 16, 2016, 02:00 AM

Quote:

a 35th series taken from the arsenal at Hiroshima after the bomb was dropped.

Ever have it checked for radioactivity??
or proof anyone ever has?
this is a serious question.

Not serious as in "you are at risk" but serious as in it was there when the bomb went off, there might be detectable (not dangerous) radioactivity.

I think it would be an interesting science project, if there was anything detectable above normal background after 70 years.

Just a thought...

January 10, 2016, 04:30 AM	#5
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Looks to me like a Type 99 Arisaka rifle with a scrubbed Mum. WWII Japanese era. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

January 10, 2016, 04:56 AM	#6
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Jimro is correct. Type 99 WWII Japanese Arisaka rifle, cal. 7.7. Norma used to load it, but I don't think anyone is loading it now with the possible exception of Prvi Partisan. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

January 10, 2016, 09:46 AM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,859	WW II Japanese Arisaka, Type 99 cal 7.7mm Jap. Bolt handle is typical of late war production. The ground spot on the receiver was to remove (or deface) the Imperial Chrysanthemum, indicating the rifle was most likely surrendered, and not a battlefield pick up. Ballistic performance of the round is approximately equal to the .303 British, and uses the same bullets (.312" bore). Functional cases can be formed from .30-06 brass. Commercial brass was available from Graf & Sons at one time, but I do not know if they currently are. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 12, 2016, 09:24 PM	#17
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,859	While it is most likely done as James K suggests there apparently are some cases where mums were ground (or filed defaced) by US troops, no doubt at the order of some brass hat who felt showing "respect" would be good for US/Japanese relations. I can also see guys detailed to that task skipping a rifle for a buck, or a beer or some smokes, when the brass wasn't looking over their shoulders... I'm afraid only the people who were there are the time can say with certainty, and very, very few of them are around to ask these days, and soon, none will be. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 13, 2016, 03:32 PM	#21
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	"Legend" has it that an unground mum was supposedly a battlefield pickup, while the ground mum was a weapon that was confiscated from the government. As was pointed out, the only ones who can say for sure are dying off rapidly. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

January 10, 2016, 04:27 PM	#8
Armed_Chicagoan Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2013 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 776	I've seen 7.7 Japanese at Cabela's recently. I'd just buy a hundred rounds of loaded ammo and then reload the brass. Or less, it's hideously expensive. eta: I think it was Norma not PPU

January 11, 2016, 02:52 PM	#9
RebBacchus Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 16	THANKS!!! I've sent the info to my nephew

January 11, 2016, 02:58 PM	#10
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	I believe Norma and Hornady load for it. And PPU produces cases.

January 11, 2016, 04:04 PM	#11
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	You can find loaded ammo in gunshops that have been around for a while, they stocked a case back in 1982 and still have some laying around. Just buy some ammo or brass and reload your own, it's not that tough. At war's end, every serviceman in the Pacific got one of these. My Dad's carrier came in to dock at Tientsin in 1945, there was a literal mountain of Arisaka rifles and other trophies on the dock. Everyone on the ship got to select a rifle. The Mum was ground off at a work station while the trophy paper was filled out with the man's name and rank. For a dollar and a smile with the swabbies tasked with the grinding work, you could bypass the Mum grinding, depending on how much the officer in charge cared about not disgracing the Emperor. Officers got to select from a pile of pistols and swords, higher ranks could get one of each. Unground rifle Mums were more common with rank, too. On the voyage home in 1946, a rifle was $2, pistols were $10, and swords were $50 in equivalent in the shipboard gambling sessions, according to my Dad.

January 12, 2016, 05:12 AM	#13
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Nobody knows for sure. It has been a topic for debate since the end of WWII.

January 12, 2016, 12:51 PM	#15
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Maybe somewhere the Mums were ground off by the Japanese, but Dad told me there was a line of Americans with grinders doing the work on the dock his carrier was berthed at. It was the same throughout the harbor.

January 12, 2016, 01:31 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There are many stories about those ground "mums", even claims that the Japanese troops carried files so they could remove the crest before surrendering!! The only story that seems sensible, and one I have seen quoted from both American and Japanese sources is that when the Americans seized Japanese depots, mainly in Japan itself, Japanese workers ground off the crest. That was because it would be dishonorable to turn a rifle with an intact crest over to foreigners. Was it ever done by Americans? Maybe, but if the rifle was in American hands already, there would have been no point. It was widely known at the time, that a ground crest meant a rifle taken from a depot, so many Americans had to figure out a story that would explain how the rifles they captured in hand-to-hand combat with Tojo himself had ground crests. The best one I heard from a vet was that he captured the rifle after fierce jungle combat but after he brought it home, the FBI came and took it and when they returned it the crest had been ground! According to the vet, Harry Truman kept a personal record of all those captured guns and who had them so that he could have them ground to keep his secret deal with Hirohito!! (Of course, the vet had never been west of San Diego, but what did that have to do with a war story?) Jim

January 12, 2016, 11:52 PM	#18
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	The story about the mums could start with “Once upon a time”. It could start with; once upon a time there was a General named Douglas MacArthur that arranged to have the mums ground off as one of the conditions of surrender. F. Guffey

January 13, 2016, 12:26 AM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	MacArthur deserves a bit of understanding, if not sympathy. He was going to take over a country whose leaders had surrendered under extreme duress (two A-Bombs). But the Japanese people still considered the emperor to be god, and were fiercely loyal to him. One word from him, and the U.S. military would have faced a revolution and had to slaughter millions of civilians or be overrun and killed. So, yes, Mac made deals with the Emperor's faction, the major one being to allow Hirohito to remain in power, though he had to renounce any claim of godhood. I have no idea where the removal of the imperial crest (actually the family "mon" of the emperor) came from, but I suspect it was of Japanese origin, part of the process of "saving face". As others have said, there is probably no definitive answer to the many questions. But if American troops were ordered to grind off "mums", there would have to have been a written order to do so, and thousands of copies made; I know of no such order. Further, the loss of face occurred when an enemy infidel touched the imperial symbol; once it was in American hands, the dishonorable deed was done; it would have been too late to prevent it. Regardless, it is pretty safe to say that Harry Truman was too busy to keep track of all those Arisakas and have the FBI grind off the crests. That vet just might have been fibbing a little. Jim

January 13, 2016, 09:33 AM	#20
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I like the part about ‘once upon a time’. it was during this time politically correct was first used. Seems it was explained there was no way to pick up ’poopoo’ from the end that did not smell; or there were those that thought it could be done. F. Guffey

January 31, 2016, 01:31 AM	#23
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	ammoseek is currently showing PRVI, precision cartridge, Grafs and Hornady Available in various places around the interwebs. as far as I know PC is reman ammo, hornady uses PRVI brass and grafs is just store brand ammo made by hornady for Graf and sons. the hornady stuff is good, my 6.5 japanese will hit a 12 inch gong at 550 yards with it, the 7.7 needs sight adjustment but I think could do similar after that. $1.50 a round is not outrageously expensive considering it's all either spire point, Amax, or SST ammo. a buck fifty per round for competition and hunting ammo, is pretty standard regardless of caliber. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 15, 2016, 10:09 AM	#24
Riceone Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Mississippi Posts: 1	Mum Grinding? I have a 35th series taken from the arsenal at Hiroshima after the bomb was dropped. According to the serial number it was made in the last week before the bomb and it has the intact mum and to this day looks brand new. A lot of fabrication in all these stories. riceone