The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 7, 2019, 05:54 PM   #1
DirtyHarold
Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2015
Posts: 94
I'm so angry at S&W, are there firearm lemon laws?

Hello ladies and gents, I'll try and keep this short...

Back in February I bought a S&W 460 Mag 7.5" Performance Center revolver, and right off the bat I had to send it in to have the barrel replaced because the finish on it was uneven, there were tool marks and dents on it, was not at all up to par for an $1,800 gun. They replaced it and I was happy, for the time being.

I finally get a chance to take it out and shoot it and within 15 rds it had 3 failures to fire because the action would not rotate the cylinder, and also I had to pry out the spent casings with pliers (factory Hornady 460 mag ammo). Now I'm pretty angry, because how did this gun even make it past their quality check? So I send it back and wait another 8 weeks to get it back. They ended up replacing literally everything but the frame, including the barrel when they JUST put a new one on it.

Once I had a chance to shoot it again, and at least in 10 rounds of 460 it seemed to work (didn't have time to shoot a bunch), but then I go to clean it and realize that something is still off. First of all, when I pass a brass brush through the barrel it sounds like zipping a zipper. Also, its impossible to get all the fouling out of it. Upon closer inspection, there are these deep radial marks along the entire length of the barrel. See pic in post below.

I don't want to to send it in and wait another 8 weeks for them to "fix" it again and send it back. I would rather them send me a new one so I can just be over this, or do a buyback, if thats even a thing that they can do.

I am so incredibly angry that this is what I have to go through for buying this gun. This is the most expensive gun S&W offers and its their PC line which is supposed to be the cream of the crop. Can anyone give me advice of legal action I may be able to take or point me to where I can get legal advice?

Thanks for listening.
DirtyHarold is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 05:55 PM   #2
DirtyHarold
Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2015
Posts: 94


Pictures of the barrel. It’s like this down all 7.5 inches of rifling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DirtyHarold is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 06:01 PM   #3
jaguarxk120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,496
I thought the S&W barrels were rifled using a EDM process.
The inside should have a matt finish, but not what your picture shows.
Call them back, they will make it right.
jaguarxk120 is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 06:30 PM   #4
smee78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2008
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 2,567
I would send S&W an email and send them the picture you posted and let them fix the gun right. I also would express your dissatisfaction with their product and see what they can do for you. I do agree that the gun they sent back should of been perfect after your first problem you had.
__________________
We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are
smee78 is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 06:41 PM   #5
RAfiringline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2014
Location: western US
Posts: 274
I wouldn't want the gun fixed - I would want a new one of the expected quality, or a refund.
__________________
Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. You need to take your time, in a hurry. Wyatt Earp
RAfiringline is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 06:51 PM   #6
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,282
I don't know what to say except the Q.C. was absent the day that got rubber stamped.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 07:01 PM   #7
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 3,821
I had a boat replaced, but I did all my communicating with them FIRST. When I didn't get the proper response, I posted my letter to them on their Facebook page. My boat was replaced in two weeks. The Marketing folks always respond to complaints more aggressively than Customer Service.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 08:04 PM   #8
woody wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: minnesota
Posts: 270
Shoot it,if it groups good than so what. If it groups poor send it back. My 500 has around 1000 rounds- never guessed to look at the lands.shoots better than i can,and im a good shot!
__________________
nra member
proud father and patriot
woody wood is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 09:24 PM   #9
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,331
Tubbs' Final Finish ain't gonna fix that one (Wow )
I'd thought I'd seen everything . . . .
mehavey is online now  
Old July 7, 2019, 10:10 PM   #10
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,419
Wait. Can you explain how there are reamer marks on both the lands and the grooves, especially considering that smith has started using an electrochemical rifling process on most of their barrels, including those for revolvers?

Those grooves should never show drill or reamer marks. It's not possible. Even button rifling would iron it out some.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 7, 2019, 10:59 PM   #11
Carmady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Location: on the lam
Posts: 1,268
That bore looks like the inside of a silo.
__________________
John Wayne called a revolver a pistol so it's a pistol, pilgrim.
Carmady is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 09:40 AM   #12
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,304
"...the most expensive gun S&W offers..." Just proves that you don't always get what you pay for. "Performance Center" apparently has nothing to do with having QC.
It doesn't appear that Smith's Performance Center has any different warrantee than any other Smith product.
"...firearm lemon laws?..." That'd depend on your State.
"...groups good...groups poor..." With what ammo fired by whom?
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 11:20 AM   #13
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 2,745
Damn, that's messed up. I can't get over the barrel's innards. I have NEVER seen a barrel cut like that. It looks like someone tried to tap the barrel!

Contact S&W again, but this time via USPS. Spend $20 and express mail it. Include photos and a detailed description.
__________________
AI + Quantum Computing = Human Extinction Event
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 11:51 AM   #14
Brutus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Posts: 955
Smith is more concerned with making precision locks.
__________________
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out,
Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen,
Winston Churchill.
Brutus is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 12:36 PM   #15
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 7,890
I've never had those problems with Hi-Point or Heritage!
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 01:05 PM   #16
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 2,775
That bore looks ribbed for the bullet's pleasure.

You had the case issue months ago where they were all scratched, now they're sending you a "fixed" gun with a bore looking like that... I wouldn't even bother giving them another chance to not fix it right. Tell them you don't believe they can fix it and want a refund.

Write a letter to the company executives, when on the phone demand that you speak with them.
__________________
Any good revolver > Any good semi auto

"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
TruthTellers is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 01:31 PM   #17
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 2,745
Quote:
I've never had those problems with Hi-Point or Heritage!
That's just mean. Having a bunch of Hi-Points, I will have to agree with you, though.
__________________
AI + Quantum Computing = Human Extinction Event
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 01:33 PM   #18
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 1,977
Gonna tell you I'm normally the guy who goes "OMG you guys are whiny and cannot expect perfection" when I see these types of posts. That being said those photos show a situation that merits some type of explanation and truth be told even as you articulated it it took the pictures to really grab my attention.

I think others are right. Time to send the pictures in or use some medium that allows you to convey them. What you have there is shameful. I'm also a believer in "give them a chance to make it right" (despite the fact you did) and if I was looking at that would be totally on board with "whatever it took" to make it right with the customer. That is frankly unacceptable that it left that way.
__________________
A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace
though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation)
Lohman446 is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 01:39 PM   #19
HighValleyRanch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2005
Posts: 3,386
THREE times to get it right and failed??
I would expect Smith and Wesson to bend over backwards to compensate the customer for the agony.
In other words, not just fix the problem, but extend a further gesture of compensation!
__________________
From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"
HighValleyRanch is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 05:21 PM   #20
DirtyHarold
Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2015
Posts: 94
I'm so angry at S&W, are there firearm lemon laws?

My big thing is I don’t want to wait another 8 weeks. They probably won’t even expedite, I asked them to last time and nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by DirtyHarold; July 8, 2019 at 05:47 PM.
DirtyHarold is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 06:18 PM   #21
Road_Clam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,332
So I had a look at my S&W 460 XVR PC and I have the same process markings in my bore as the OP is observing. It does not appear that I have the said marks in my rifling though. My rifling looks smooth. Not worried about this as my 12" 460 shoots outstanding out to 200 meters. I tried taking some borescope photos but they didnt come out so well. I would have to say that my bore marks are slightly less than what I see in the op's pic. I have about 400 rounds through my 460 so it's possible that there is a period of time where fired rounds "lap" the barrels' machined surfaces.





__________________
"To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"
Road_Clam is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 06:42 PM   #22
Waspinator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2013
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 516
I've been a machinist for a long time.. heck, been at my custom job shop since 96', I did my apprenticeship in tool rooms and work now with CNCs and lasers. Looking at the OP's picture... I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how those tooling marks were put in.

It almost looks as if a rifling broach was chattering while going through. But other posters have said they use EDM now. Using EDM can leave manufacturing marks... but not like that in my experience. Also, looking at the right side raised land, it looks as if those marks are cut all the way through. See how they almost look like a bunch of beads or wire ends placed side-by-side? That is cut through.

I wouldn't continue to fire that gun no matter how many people tell you to " just shoot it and don't worry"... Because, that my friend , is worrying.

**Edit: I see that is actually ECM, not EDM, that they are using. I'm not familar with that techniuqe.. so perhaps that is why I am so confused looking at it. That said, I just did a search for ECM rifling and did not see any image look like that OP's picture. I still say don't shoot that thing.

Last edited by Waspinator; July 8, 2019 at 06:48 PM.
Waspinator is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 07:40 PM   #23
Road_Clam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,332
Instead of everyone sending the OP into a panic, how about we put this to bed in a educated manner and initiate a phone call to S&W for the facts ?
__________________
"To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"
Road_Clam is offline  
Old July 8, 2019, 09:03 PM   #24
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,008
Rather than a phone call, I have had much better luck with emailing S&W, and you can include the pictures in the email.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old July 9, 2019, 05:49 AM   #25
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
I've been a machinist for a long time.. heck, been at my custom job shop since 96', I did my apprenticeship in tool rooms and work now with CNCs and lasers. Looking at the OP's picture... I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how those tooling marks were put in.
Not being a machinist, but being fairly intelligent and knowing how things work, I've been scratching my head too, and waiting for someone with a valid explanation. The marks seem to continue from the lands to the grooves with marks on the side of the lands too? Almost like it was polished with a wire brush harder than the barrel material. Almost like it could it be lead fouling and those are the marks from the brass brush? Again, I'm baffled.

I too would send pics to S&W. Their customer service is better than that. I too would wait for conformation from them as to whether the gun is safe to shoot. I would think that grooves like that perpendicular to bullet travel would quickly contribute to severe fouling, whether lead or copper and not pnly degrade accuracy and performance, but increase the already high pressure even more.
buck460XVR is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10588 seconds with 9 queries