The Ferguson, MO Police Shooting

[Tom Servo]

What if the officer's story is true?

An acquittal will probably set off accusations of corruption and bias. It may cause more rioting.

In no possible future will he truly be exonerated. The news coverage and politics have already convicted him.

Oh wait, that's the 95% white Ferguson/St Louis County police getting set up to "serve and protect" the 85% black local community.

Absolutely nothing about that picture suggests that those guys are part of the community. Their very appearance and presentation implies that they expect violence and are ready to dish it out.

Pair that perception with a bunch of people feeling anger and desperation, and you've got a powder keg. The very authority the locals have been led to resent and distrust just pulled out its biggest guns, and it's there to keep the status quo with force.

[Mainah]

Yes, if they had body or dash cameras they could manipulate that footage. But from what we know now they didn't have either. They did have and release a security video from a local store that apparently shows the victim committing a strong arm robbery. Although we don't know if that video has been edited yet, and the local police later admitted that the officer who fired the fatal shots was not aware of that crime when he encountered and then engaged the victim.

So like the Martin case we have the selective use of surveillance cameras being used as a means of defining a shooting that was not captured with the same technology. And in both cases the images that were captured could have demonstrated a better picture of the victim that the one that was portrayed in the media. However in neither case do we actually see what led to a fatal shooting. or the shooting itself.

[motorhead0922]

Yes, if they had body or dash cameras they could manipulate that footage.

That would be tampering with evidence.

It is interesting though, that in this day of 24/7 surveillance, no video of the actual event is available.

[Mainah]

I find it interesting to see what is available, so far. So far it's either been still pictures of the victim looking like a cherub or a video of him looking like a complete criminal.

[WyMark]

Originally Posted by jrinne0430

As for the keeping arms, it would have little affect on the armored RVs in the pic.

Probably not. But think of a gun registry, and seeing that "RV" pulling up in front of your house to collect the firearms on the list.

Overall, I think that the extreme militarization of law enforcement is a very bad thing. When the "authoritah" have ever bigger and badder hammers, you start to look more and more like a nail.

[jrinne0430]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrinne0430
As for the keeping arms, it would have little affect on the armored RVs in the pic.

Probably not. But think of a gun registry, and seeing that "RV" pulling up in front of your house to collect the firearms on the list.

Overall, I think that the extreme militarization of law enforcement is a very bad thing. When the "authoritah" have ever bigger and badder hammers, you start to look more and more like a nail

.

Agree

[Technosavant]

It is interesting though, that in this day of 24/7 surveillance, no video of the actual event is available.

Apparently the Ferguson PD has some cameras (dunno if they were for the cars or body packs) but hadn't started using them yet. I bet they wish they had gotten on the stick now.

That particular neighborhood is extremely economically depressed so you wouldn't have other surveillance cameras that would have caught the incident.


As for the police response:
Things have been improving. While the cops have taken a less adversarial stance over the last several days, it hasn't fully stopped the problem of looting/rioting. Early in the evening it's a peaceful protest. Later in the night the criminal element comes out and gets going... the problem is about 9-10pm, when the criminals start mixing with the peaceful folks. There's even well documented instances of out of towners (not just people from other neighborhoods, but I'm talking people from other states) who come in for the express purpose of antagonizing the police with an eye toward forcing a response. When bricks, molotov cocktails, and rocks are being thrown and gunshots being fired, the police HAVE to come in heavy. Last night there were shots fired at police but the police held back... I notice the national media intent on the "overbearing police that murders minorities" narrative haven't mentioned that.

Thing is, there's times when the police DO need the riot gear. There's also times when it's counterproductive.

They've started getting closer to striking the right balance, the problem now is isolating the troublemakers from the protestors. Today the protesting groups were telling people to go home when the sun goes down... that will clear the field to allow the police to handle the troublemakers and maybe start to cool this thing down. The groups are realizing that they're being used as cover... and they're not real happy about it.

Edit to add:
Looks like the protestors are out in force again tonight, but no miscreants just yet.

[johnelmore]

One thing to note about all of these Police deadly force scenarios is the perpetrator always seems to resist the police from the start. If everyone would simply stand still and not say anything this would not have happened. This particular situation started with a mild assault and resistance against the officer. While we dont have all the facts yet to judge the officer's actions, I believe I can state with confidence that this incident was provoked by the actions of Michael Brown.

Ask yourself what would you do if Michael Brown, a very large man, disobeyed your commands and assaulted you even grabbing at your pistol to the point where it goes off. Its easy to state matter of factly what you would do in a message forum, but while its happening is a different matter.

Darren Wilson did not go out on patrol that day expecting or wishing for this to happen. However, Michael Brown had other intentions. He shoplifted from a store and than assaulted the shopkeeper. His next action was then to resist, disobey and assault a police officer.

[Aguila Blanca]

It has now apparently been confirmed that the officer involved suffered a fractured "orbital socket" (that's the bones around the eyeball) in the incident. It's difficult to conceive of any way that could have occurred if the alleged "victim" was standing 20 or 30 feet away with his hands up.

On the other hand, I have now read that Brown was 6'-4" tall and weighed 292 pounds. If someone that big punches you in the face, it's not unlikely to expect a broken bone or three at a minimum. It seems to me that the factual pendulum is swinging in support of the officer's version of the story, but that's obviously not going to affect the behavior of those whose agenda isn't really interested in the truth of the matter but just to create mayhem and racial unrest.

[btmj]

As I said earlier, I have close family who live in Ferguson. I have to suspect that the Ferguson PD has a bad habit of harassing black people, particularly young black men. The pent-up rage that black Ferguson residents have toward the police is astonishing. Just 5 miles away is the City of St Louis... North St Louis to be exact. North St Louis has a higher crime rate, a higher unemployment rate, and a lower household income than Ferguson. It is what you call "a bad area"... Ferguson is not exactly middle class, but it is certainly not a ghetto... I go to Ferguson all the time... I avoid North St Louis. In any given year there are numerous instances where police officers shoot young black men in North St Louis... But there are no riots, looting, week long protests... Why? I suspect that the St Louis Police are more even handed and fair in their dealings with city residents. St Louis city black residents are not seething with resentment against the police. Whereas in Ferguson, they are. There has to be a reason.

[Ruger480]

Jim March wrote an excellent paper that addresses some of the questions about race and authority. You should read it. He posted it in another thread here on TFL.

[JimDandy]

I really don't want to breathe that stuff in, and I haven't done anything...nuts to that--I'm throwing it back.

You just did something. Not wanting to breathe it doesn't mean you have to, or even GET to throw it back. All those people hit by ricochets and shrapnel in that New York shooting didn't get to start blasting away at police because they were hit while not doing anything.

I suspect that the truth will fall somewhere in the middle.

This sounds pretty much like the definition of the Gray Fallacy

[Madcap_Magician]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Yes they are, but the police are responding to the looters by punishing peaceful protesters and journalists. That's the first problem.

The second is the way they're responding. I have yet to see the faces of any of the responding officers. Everybody's in facemasks and ninja gear, waving around military equipment. That has an effect on perception, and it can be perceived as a threat.

I wonder if a few local cops known to the community might have been more reassuring, and if that wouldn't have been a much better course.

The first problem is only partly true. There have been incidents where protesters and journalists have been subject to unnecessary or unreasonable force. At the same time, if you are in the immediate vicinity of rioters, it's unreasonable to expect the police to walk out, determine all the people in the crowd who are legitimate protesters or journalists, and then gas everybody BUT them.

And that also tells you something about the second point. For one, I've seen plenty of pictures of police in Ferguson with their faces plainly showing, so just on its face, that's wrong. But when riot police use tear gas, there is an obvious reason why they may have masks covering their faces.

As to the last point, the antagonistic relationship between the community and the local PD is a major factor in the whole situation, so I am not seeing how the local community seeing the local cops they already hate would calm anyone down.

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

It depends on how we define rowdy.

An agitated and angry crowd is a fickle thing, and it's easily provoked. A visible show of force (potential or real) is going to do just that. A line of guys dressed like soldiers and pointing rifles at folks is going to be perceived as a challenge. Members of the crowd are going to perceive their presence as an escalation.

The police responded to a few bad actors with indiscriminate force against everybody. That doesn't make things calmer.

So how do you think police should respond to being pelted by rocks, bottles, Molotov cocktails, and gunfire by people in an angry mob? I think they've wavered between an initial overreaction, then to under-reacting, and back and forth without every quite coming up with the right response to the situation at the present time.

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

But I won't take that trade. Under no circumstances can we justify gassing or tazing people who aren't breaking the law.

I actually do respect that opinion, but at the same time I am reasonably sure the people who had their livelihoods feloniously burned to the ground while the police stood by because they didn't want to CS the crowd probably feel otherwise.

[Mainah]

This sounds pretty much like the definition of the Gray Fallacy

From your link:

Exception: When the two extremes are equally distanced from the “correct” value -- and there actually is a correct, or fair, value between the two proposed values.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Mainah

Although we don't know if that video has been edited yet, and the local police later admitted that the officer who fired the fatal shots was not aware of that crime when he encountered and then engaged the victim.

Although we know, days after the fact, that the officer did not know when he encountered Brown that Brown was suspected of robbing a nearby store, we can easily and probably fairly accurately surmise that Brown didn't know the officer didn't know. That makes this a case in which two negatives DO add up to a positive -- Brown reacted incredibly excessively if the whole incident revolved around the officer telling him not to walk in the middle of the street. However, if he had just robbed a store, his reaction when approached by a police officer would naturally have been to assume that he had been "made." He responded accordingly.

[Wyoredman]

I had a thought last night while watching the MO Governor demand a prosecution, then news clips of the protesters demanding it also.

What would happen if Officer Wilson appeared at the protests, walked into the street and with a blow horn turned himself in?

Would the mob overtake him and kill him?
Would the mob be so stunned they did nothing?

It seems dangerous, but it also seems that Officer Wilson, a single man, could end the rioting.

I don't know, just a thought.

Carry on.

[spacemanspiff]

Not all rioting stems from frustration. Joyous celebration can also lead to rioting. The officer turning himself in to the mob, would not have a good outcome either way. In my opinion anyways.

[JimDandy]

What would happen if Officer Wilson appeared at the protests, walked into the street and with a blow horn turned himself in?

Turned himself in for what? As far as I know there's no warrant, no summons, no indictment yet. I would assume he's got a security detail of some kind at the point who could easily arrest him the moment there were. He may not be in jail, but if what I imagine what is his current situation is correct, I'd be hard pressed to differentiate it from in custody.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Although we know, days after the fact, that the officer did not know when he encountered Brown that Brown was suspected of robbing a nearby store, we can easily and probably fairly accurately surmise that Brown didn't know the officer didn't know. That makes this a case in which two negatives DO add up to a positive -- Brown reacted incredibly excessively if the whole incident revolved around the officer telling him not to walk in the middle of the street. However, if he had just robbed a store, his reaction when approached by a police officer would naturally have been to assume that he had been "made." He responded accordingly.

Actually, the last I heard was that the officer did not INITIALLY know about the robbery when he told them to get out of the street but he was still in his car at that point. The call then (very shortly after he initiated contact) came over the radio about the robbery, at which point the officer attempted to exit his vehicle and was attacked by Brown.

As everything else about this case, I don't know how we'd know if that's correct or not at this point.

[johnwilliamson062]

It has now apparently been confirmed that the officer involved suffered a fractured "orbital socket" (that's the bones around the eyeball) in the incident.

That indicates a fairly severe head injury. Severe concussions can cause paranoia and significant sensory impairment among many other things. If I was on a jury that would limit the "reasonable person" standard I applied to the officers actions after the injury if conduct preceding the injury was reasonable.

[Wyoredman]

Maybe "turned himself in" was the wrong term.

More like "presented himself to the protesters".

Would they lynch him? Would it stop the riots if Officer Wilson showed up and said "Here I am, I stand by the fact that I was defending myself. Now what?"

Would they lynch him, or would it diffuse the situation?

Thinking through my keyboard. If that action diffused the situation, wouldn't Officer Wilson be the hero!

Hmm.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Who in their right mind would show up at a protest where they were shouting "What do we want?" "Officer Wilson dead!" "When do we want it?" "Now!"

[Buzzcook]

I hate to sound like I’m racially stereotyping or something, but CNN showed several arrestees being loaded into transport vans. The vast majority were actually white and as I said earlier had the look of the professional anarchist WTO rioter type – whatever that is.

Let's introduce our selves to one of those white arrestees.

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/me...arrested-brown
http://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-su...america-265703

Hedy Epstein turned 90 on August 15, and she spent much of last week celebrating. Friends and family traveled to her home in St. Louis, Missouri,
Snip
A human rights activist and Holocaust survivor, Epstein had been following the unrest in nearby Ferguson, where an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, was shot and killed by police on August 9.
Snip
“I really didn’t think about being arrested or doing anything like that,” Epstein told Newsweek. “I was just going to be somebody in the crowd. I guess maybe I was impulsive: Someone said, ‘Who is willing to be arrested if that happens?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’m willing.’”

A police officer informed the crowd that Nixon and his staff were not in the building, Epstein says, and urged them to leave. When she and eight other protesters refused, they were arrested for failure to disperse. Police handcuffed Epstein behind her back and took her to a nearby police substation. She was booked, given a court date of October 21, and then told she could leave.

“I’m deeply, deeply troubled by what’s going on in Ferguson,” says Epstein. “It’s a matter of racism and injustice, and it’s not only in Ferguson…. Racism is alive and well in the United States. The power structure looks at anyone who’s different as the other, as less worthy, and so you treat the other as someone who is less human and who needs to be controlled and who is not trusted.”

I'd like to suggest that some white people might just feel solidarity with the residents of Ferguson.

There is a tendency to paint all protesters as rioters and every protester as a looter. Do we really need to start calling white protesters anarchists?

[BarryLee]

Do we really need to start calling white protesters anarchists?

No, I never suggested that all white protesters were anarchist, but to suggest they weren’t there when reporters on the ground said they were ignores reality. My primary reason for mentioning their presence was to illustrate that the majority of the protesters were peaceful and it was only a small minority, many outsiders, causing trouble. This seems to be supported by the media and various leaders on the ground.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5689963.html

[gc70]

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

Actually, the last I heard was that the officer did not INITIALLY know about the robbery when he told them to get out of the street but he was still in his car at that point. The call then (very shortly after he initiated contact) came over the radio about the robbery, at which point the officer attempted to exit his vehicle and was attacked by Brown.

The Ferguson PD incident report on the robbery also contained action logs.
Officer Wilson was cleared from his prior call at 12:00:00 (page 11).
The robbery call descriptions were noted between 11:52:53 and 11:58:04 (page 12).
The unit assigned to the robbery call was cleared at 12:00:51 (page 13).
The shooting was apparently reported at 12:01:50 (page 14).