.20 , .28 or .410 for the youngins?

baddarryl · February 7, 2012, 12:45 PM

I have smallish 8 and 9 year olds that I am now teaching to shoot. Was thinking of a Pardner .410 single shot or something. I have heard a .28 is just as light recoil wise, but has near the knockdown of a .20. True? I don't think I would get a .20 right now unless is was auto for recoil reduction and I don't want them to handle an auto off the bat. I am thinking a single shot really helps hone that one shot, one kill talent! You guys have any good suggestions for what youth models either new or ones I might find cheap on the used rack that would still be good quality? Thank everyone.

natman · February 7, 2012, 01:07 PM

A single shot in 20 will kick too much for a child.
A 410 is too hard to hit with on the wing.

A 28 splits the difference nicely. The only drawback is the cost of ammo.

Doyle · February 7, 2012, 01:10 PM

Contrary to the thoughts of many old timers, a .410 is seldom a good choice for a kid if you ever hope they will actually enjoy shooting. There is so little shot in there it is really hard to hit anything with it. As a squirrel gun for a kid, yes it has its place. However, to hit anything flying with a .410 requires some expertise. Placing it in the hands of a kid is likely to result in frustration.

I've never owned a 28ga, but unless you reload you'll have to order your shells online. That can add up.

That leaves you with a 20ga. My first shots at a flying target were with a 20ga 1100 with a youth stock. I was probably about 12 at the time. The kid that owned it was 2 years younger than me and he handled it fine too. Recoil through the autoloader was quite manageable even for a skinny kid like me. Ammo for it will be available at any gun counter.

oneounceload · February 7, 2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

I've never owned a 28ga, but unless you reload you'll have to order your shells online. That can add up.

Or, you could go to your local Wally World and buy them off the shelf. They cost more than 12 or 20, but you can also sell the empties to a target shooter and recoup most of the difference.

One of the softest shooting guns ever is the Remington 1100 in 28 gauge. With its 20 gauge weight and lighter ammo, it is a great gun for old and young alike and just smokes targets.

Otherwise, the heaviest gun they can handle with the lightest loads that works the gun in a gun that FITS them, will give them the most success and fun - bore size doesn't matter then

Doyle · February 7, 2012, 02:49 PM

Oneounceload, I'm glad your local WallyWorld carries 28. The ones down here (at least some carry ammo) carry 12 and 20 and sometimes a few boxes of .410. I've never seen any of them carry 28 or even 16.

oneounceload · February 7, 2012, 03:11 PM

Every wally world, even when I lived out West, carried the Winchester AA 28 gauge target loads- which would the best choice for kids to shoot with anyway; odd that yours doesn't. It is also available at the big box stores like Gander, BASS, Dick's, etc.

Point is, though, it is available and should therefore not be a factor in the using the 28 - cost might be something different, but then a used MEC Jr. can cut those costs to about $3.00 per box - cheaper than 12 or 20

Dave McC · February 7, 2012, 03:13 PM

The 28 is a fine choice. If you reload or start to, it's not expensive.

Of course, if you reload, loading up 3/4 oz loads in 20 gauge extends things nicely. Then, they have a gun still suitable later on.

Like 1 oz said, the heaviest gun the lightest loads....

shortwave · February 7, 2012, 05:23 PM

Also agree with 1oz. Heaviest gun, lightest load.

We have the 28's here at our Wally World and occasionally I pick up some 16's but if those gauge shells are a problem in your area, the 20 can work just fine.

243winxb · February 7, 2012, 05:57 PM

20ga. auto, only way. Its a single shot if you only load 1 shell at a time. Parent holds the shells, hand to child, 1 at a time. Never a 410

WV_gunner · February 7, 2012, 06:01 PM

28 gauge but availability is going to be bad. I'd go with probably a 20 gauge and use light target loads. A double barrel would be nice or even a bolt action. They make 20 gauge side by sides with rabit ears again, can't remember who makes it. Or get a cheap Maverick pump. Can always get a single shot and if it's too much recoil use a recoil pad and put lead in the stock. But really, there's nothing wrong with a .410 but you gotta be more skilled if it's gonna be used for hunting. It's more than doable, I know people that even deer hunt with them. I good idea could be a Rossi with interchangeable barrels, you can 20 gauge barrel and if it's too much for them buy a .410 barrel.

SHR970 · February 7, 2012, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Doyle wrote: Contrary to the thoughts of many old timers, a .410 is seldom a good choice for a kid if you ever hope they will actually enjoy shooting. There is so little shot in there it is really hard to hit anything with it.

While I agree with the first sentance, I disagree with the second. The problem is not lack of shot, the problem is that most makers insist on Full Choke for their barrels. The 410 is a 25 -30 yard gun max.; it is not nor will it ever be a 50 yard bird gun. Full choke results in a dense core with poor distribution on the outter part of the pattern. Couple that with many ammo makers insistance on soft shot and you have a recipe for poor patterning. That makes wing shooting a challenge for even skilled people.
For those who doubt this; try teaching a noob to shoot skeet with a 12 gauge and full choke. I'll bet you that they walk away frustrated as hell. Try doing it yourself and see how good your scores are.

Use the heaviest gun they can handle, the lightest charges available and cyl. or I.C. choke to give them a good chance to hit.

410 11/16oz load shell 1135 fps.
28 ga. 3/4oz load 1230 - 1295 fps. depending on load
20 ga. 3/4oz. load 1210 - 1425 fps. depending on load
Source: Federal ammunition.

A 28 ga. and a 20 ga. in guns of the same weight and configuration will kick just as much.

If you look at the Mossberg Bantaam 20 gauge, they come with a dowl in them that limits the magazine to ZERO rounds. They tell you how long to cut the dowl down to later when the kids are ready for hunting. This makes it a hunting legal 2+1 configuration. I'm not sure of Rem. but I would imagine they do the same thing. You also get the benifit of screw in chokes. Just something to consider for future growth.

baddarryl · February 7, 2012, 07:24 PM

I looked at a Mossberg 510 .410 today that seemed cheap and like a toy. Next to a youth 870 it was. That is good info to know about the mag plug though. So is it general consensus that light loads in a heavier .20 might be ok? Found a beautiful Stevens O/U .410 that I wanted! A little pricey at $600 for me though.

. They both shot a single shot .410 this summer at a Sheriff youth event (thanks guys) and complained of the kick, but it was their first time shooting.

zippy13 · February 7, 2012, 07:57 PM

They both shot a single shot .410 this summer at a Sheriff youth event (thanks guys) and complained of the kick

That should tell you something.

Doyle · February 7, 2012, 08:32 PM

I've shot single-shot .410s where the felt recoil was easily as bad as a 20ga autoloader. That gas-operated auto will absorb a lot of felt recoil.

Scubasimmons · February 7, 2012, 10:50 PM

I was a skinny 10 year old and had no problems with a 20 ga 870 or SxS. Get them shooting at a moving target and it will keep their mind off the recoil.

SHR970 · February 7, 2012, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Doyle wrote: I've shot single-shot .410s where the felt recoil was easily as bad as a 20ga autoloader. That gas-operated auto will absorb a lot of felt recoil.

And that would be with standard 7/8 oz. field loads in the 20 gauge no doubt.

Let's assume you use a standard 410 3" 11/16 oz. loading @ 1135 fps. and compare it to a 20 Ga. 2 3/4" 3/4 oz. 1200 fps. loading. Using Hodgdon data we can also see that both loads are able to be made with a charge of ~14 grains of powder. I am ignoring the wad weight.*

Let's assume you use a Rossi single shot 410 w/ 28" plain barrel and a Mossy Bantaam 20 pump with a 22" vent rib barrel.

According to Rossi, their 410 single shot weighs 4 lbs. According to Mossberg, their Bantaam pump weighs 6.5 lbs.

Using the formula found in Lymans Manuals (can also be found on line) the free recoil energy for the 410 works out to 13.16 ft. lbs. and the 20Ga. comes out to 10.35 ft. lb.s This is comparing two guns that deliver full recoil to the shooter. The felt recoil will be further reduced by a semi auto.

As you can see, with similar shot charges and velocities, the 20 gauge can deliver noticeably less free recoil energy than a 410 single shot.

* wad weight will change these numbers a little, but not enough to significantly alter the final result.

olddrum1 · February 8, 2012, 12:47 AM

8&9 years old with a small frame, I would start them out with a 22 until they put on a little size. Keep it fun for them.

baddarryl · February 8, 2012, 09:27 AM

Olddrum you might be right. I just saw the look on my sons face when he was pulling clay birds for me for the first time on Sun! Maybe a little soon for that. Trying to wrench my dad's old Sears lever action .22 from him! My son did quite well with my Marlin bolt action and a scope though! Still want them to learn with iron sights! Thanks for your input everyone.

jimbob86 · February 8, 2012, 09:39 AM

20 guage, for economic reasons alone.

You could handload .410's cheaper than 20's, maybe .......

But the thing with kids is to keep them shooting. Shooting takes money.

Recoil issues can be solved with an autoloader, lite loads and reactive targets.

28 guage? Those are not exactly ubiquitous ......

I learned to wingshoot with a single shot .410. It was frustrating, but I was a determined kid, and it was a GUN!, so I kept at it. I killed a few doves, quail and pheasants with it..... but when I moved up to a 16, it seemed I could not miss......

JASmith · February 8, 2012, 09:44 AM

If yoiu are a reloader, go with the 12 gauge in the single or pump.

Load 28ga-equivalent or lighter shells in the 12 ga. The shotgun then becomes one that the youngster can grow into as he or she gets bigger and matures.

mo84 · February 8, 2012, 09:46 AM

My wife is 4' 11" and 100 lbs. With a recoil pad I bought her for $30 that is put on over your sholder; she has no issues with the recoil from her 20 gage(youth mossberg). That might an option to think about if you decide on a shot gun.

BigJimP · February 8, 2012, 03:18 PM

Recoil is different for every kid ....some kids have the upper body stregth at 10 yrs old ...and some don't .../ but its more about upper body strength than anything in my opinion ( can they hold the gun up ..to keep it on target...and follow the flight of the bird with the gun ...or are they leaning backwards at the waist at 30 degrees because the gun is too heavy ...or its too long ...or both )...

Desire in kids to do everything ...and do it well..is very high in all kids ...but if they aren't strong enough ...you just have to wait.

I like a 28ga a lot for a new shooter...in an O/U ...so you can see when they break the gun -its empty. But a good pump gun ...like a Browning BPS is made in a 28ga in the Hunter model for around $ 600 ..and its a good long term gun ( but Rem 870 Wingmasters are also made in 28ga as well ) ...or go to a gas operated 28ga ...maybe a Remington 11-87 or something...

I think, for the most part ...these single shot guns ...in 28ga or .410 are a waste of money. Get a good used pump gun or semi-auto or an O/U that they can handle and you'll be way ahead.

But like others said ...if you reload ...you can load a 20ga down to 3/4 oz like a 28ga and slow it down to 1150 fps ...to keep it real light.

28ga Estate ..or Rio's ...in my area are selling for around $10 for a box of 25 -- and they're decent shells for a new shooter to practice with. When they start wanting to shoot 8 boxes a week ...its probably time to buy a good loader anyway ...

zippy13 · February 8, 2012, 04:28 PM

My friend olddrum1 hit it perfectly: "Keep it fun for them."

If a kid is being hurt by recoil, or is fearful of the recoil, he's not going to be having fun. I recall an incident when a father was forcing his two young sons to shoot a round of Skeet. After Station 1, the younger one (quite small) had had enough. At Station 2, he was crying and having tantrum, and the older one wasn't a happy camper, either; but, the father made them continue shooting. I suspect neither youngster will ever want to shoot again.

WV_gunner · February 8, 2012, 05:53 PM

When I was a kid, I never really got to go to the range. I think the first time I went I was 10. The only time I ever went to the range was right before deer season and that was just to make sure the guns were still sighted in. we might be there for 10 minutes. I hated that. I wanted to spend hours there. Now that I'm older, I do just that. When I was a kid, I'd of loved it if Dad had took me to the range just to shoot. I try to do it as much as I can now and it's a great stress reliever.

meatgrinder42 · February 8, 2012, 06:19 PM

I wouldn't overlook the .22. They're great to get children to learn their bearings and the auto-loaders hardly recoil at all. Cheap to shoot and even through adulthood they're a blast.

February 7, 2012, 12:45 PM	#1
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	.20 , .28 or .410 for the youngins? I have smallish 8 and 9 year olds that I am now teaching to shoot. Was thinking of a Pardner .410 single shot or something. I have heard a .28 is just as light recoil wise, but has near the knockdown of a .20. True? I don't think I would get a .20 right now unless is was auto for recoil reduction and I don't want them to handle an auto off the bat. I am thinking a single shot really helps hone that one shot, one kill talent! You guys have any good suggestions for what youth models either new or ones I might find cheap on the used rack that would still be good quality? Thank everyone.

February 7, 2012, 01:07 PM	#2
natman Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2008 Posts: 2,608	A single shot in 20 will kick too much for a child. A 410 is too hard to hit with on the wing. A 28 splits the difference nicely. The only drawback is the cost of ammo.

February 7, 2012, 01:10 PM	#3
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Contrary to the thoughts of many old timers, a .410 is seldom a good choice for a kid if you ever hope they will actually enjoy shooting. There is so little shot in there it is really hard to hit anything with it. As a squirrel gun for a kid, yes it has its place. However, to hit anything flying with a .410 requires some expertise. Placing it in the hands of a kid is likely to result in frustration. I've never owned a 28ga, but unless you reload you'll have to order your shells online. That can add up. That leaves you with a 20ga. My first shots at a flying target were with a 20ga 1100 with a youth stock. I was probably about 12 at the time. The kid that owned it was 2 years younger than me and he handled it fine too. Recoil through the autoloader was quite manageable even for a skinny kid like me. Ammo for it will be available at any gun counter.

February 7, 2012, 02:49 PM	#5
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Oneounceload, I'm glad your local WallyWorld carries 28. The ones down here (at least some carry ammo) carry 12 and 20 and sometimes a few boxes of .410. I've never seen any of them carry 28 or even 16.

February 7, 2012, 03:11 PM	#6
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Every wally world, even when I lived out West, carried the Winchester AA 28 gauge target loads- which would the best choice for kids to shoot with anyway; odd that yours doesn't. It is also available at the big box stores like Gander, BASS, Dick's, etc. Point is, though, it is available and should therefore not be a factor in the using the 28 - cost might be something different, but then a used MEC Jr. can cut those costs to about $3.00 per box - cheaper than 12 or 20

February 7, 2012, 03:13 PM	#7
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	The 28 is a fine choice. If you reload or start to, it's not expensive. Of course, if you reload, loading up 3/4 oz loads in 20 gauge extends things nicely. Then, they have a gun still suitable later on. Like 1 oz said, the heaviest gun the lightest loads....

February 7, 2012, 05:23 PM	#8
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Also agree with 1oz. Heaviest gun, lightest load. We have the 28's here at our Wally World and occasionally I pick up some 16's but if those gauge shells are a problem in your area, the 20 can work just fine.

February 7, 2012, 05:57 PM	#9
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	20ga. auto, only way. Its a single shot if you only load 1 shell at a time. Parent holds the shells, hand to child, 1 at a time. Never a 410

February 7, 2012, 06:01 PM	#10
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	28 gauge but availability is going to be bad. I'd go with probably a 20 gauge and use light target loads. A double barrel would be nice or even a bolt action. They make 20 gauge side by sides with rabit ears again, can't remember who makes it. Or get a cheap Maverick pump. Can always get a single shot and if it's too much recoil use a recoil pad and put lead in the stock. But really, there's nothing wrong with a .410 but you gotta be more skilled if it's gonna be used for hunting. It's more than doable, I know people that even deer hunt with them. I good idea could be a Rossi with interchangeable barrels, you can 20 gauge barrel and if it's too much for them buy a .410 barrel.

February 7, 2012, 07:24 PM	#12
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	I looked at a Mossberg 510 .410 today that seemed cheap and like a toy. Next to a youth 870 it was. That is good info to know about the mag plug though. So is it general consensus that light loads in a heavier .20 might be ok? Found a beautiful Stevens O/U .410 that I wanted! A little pricey at $600 for me though. . They both shot a single shot .410 this summer at a Sheriff youth event (thanks guys) and complained of the kick, but it was their first time shooting.

February 7, 2012, 07:57 PM	#13
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	They both shot a single shot .410 this summer at a Sheriff youth event (thanks guys) and complained of the kick That should tell you something.

February 7, 2012, 08:32 PM	#14
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	I've shot single-shot .410s where the felt recoil was easily as bad as a 20ga autoloader. That gas-operated auto will absorb a lot of felt recoil.

February 7, 2012, 10:50 PM	#15
Scubasimmons Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Sammamish, WA Posts: 119	I was a skinny 10 year old and had no problems with a 20 ga 870 or SxS. Get them shooting at a moving target and it will keep their mind off the recoil.

February 8, 2012, 12:47 AM	#17
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	8&9 years old with a small frame, I would start them out with a 22 until they put on a little size. Keep it fun for them.

February 8, 2012, 09:27 AM	#18
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	Olddrum you might be right. I just saw the look on my sons face when he was pulling clay birds for me for the first time on Sun! Maybe a little soon for that. Trying to wrench my dad's old Sears lever action .22 from him! My son did quite well with my Marlin bolt action and a scope though! Still want them to learn with iron sights! Thanks for your input everyone.

February 8, 2012, 09:39 AM	#19
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	20 guage, for economic reasons alone. You could handload .410's cheaper than 20's, maybe ....... But the thing with kids is to keep them shooting. Shooting takes money. Recoil issues can be solved with an autoloader, lite loads and reactive targets. 28 guage? Those are not exactly ubiquitous ...... I learned to wingshoot with a single shot .410. It was frustrating, but I was a determined kid, and it was a GUN!, so I kept at it. I killed a few doves, quail and pheasants with it..... but when I moved up to a 16, it seemed I could not miss......

February 8, 2012, 09:44 AM	#20
JASmith Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2009 Posts: 157	If yoiu are a reloader, go with the 12 gauge in the single or pump. Load 28ga-equivalent or lighter shells in the 12 ga. The shotgun then becomes one that the youngster can grow into as he or she gets bigger and matures.

February 8, 2012, 09:46 AM	#21
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	My wife is 4' 11" and 100 lbs. With a recoil pad I bought her for $30 that is put on over your sholder; she has no issues with the recoil from her 20 gage(youth mossberg). That might an option to think about if you decide on a shot gun.

February 8, 2012, 03:18 PM	#22
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Recoil is different for every kid ....some kids have the upper body stregth at 10 yrs old ...and some don't .../ but its more about upper body strength than anything in my opinion ( can they hold the gun up ..to keep it on target...and follow the flight of the bird with the gun ...or are they leaning backwards at the waist at 30 degrees because the gun is too heavy ...or its too long ...or both )... Desire in kids to do everything ...and do it well..is very high in all kids ...but if they aren't strong enough ...you just have to wait. I like a 28ga a lot for a new shooter...in an O/U ...so you can see when they break the gun -its empty. But a good pump gun ...like a Browning BPS is made in a 28ga in the Hunter model for around $ 600 ..and its a good long term gun ( but Rem 870 Wingmasters are also made in 28ga as well ) ...or go to a gas operated 28ga ...maybe a Remington 11-87 or something... I think, for the most part ...these single shot guns ...in 28ga or .410 are a waste of money. Get a good used pump gun or semi-auto or an O/U that they can handle and you'll be way ahead. But like others said ...if you reload ...you can load a 20ga down to 3/4 oz like a 28ga and slow it down to 1150 fps ...to keep it real light. 28ga Estate ..or Rio's ...in my area are selling for around $10 for a box of 25 -- and they're decent shells for a new shooter to practice with. When they start wanting to shoot 8 boxes a week ...its probably time to buy a good loader anyway ...

February 8, 2012, 04:28 PM	#23
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	My friend olddrum1 hit it perfectly: "Keep it fun for them." If a kid is being hurt by recoil, or is fearful of the recoil, he's not going to be having fun. I recall an incident when a father was forcing his two young sons to shoot a round of Skeet. After Station 1, the younger one (quite small) had had enough. At Station 2, he was crying and having tantrum, and the older one wasn't a happy camper, either; but, the father made them continue shooting. I suspect neither youngster will ever want to shoot again.

February 8, 2012, 05:53 PM	#24
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	When I was a kid, I never really got to go to the range. I think the first time I went I was 10. The only time I ever went to the range was right before deer season and that was just to make sure the guns were still sighted in. we might be there for 10 minutes. I hated that. I wanted to spend hours there. Now that I'm older, I do just that. When I was a kid, I'd of loved it if Dad had took me to the range just to shoot. I try to do it as much as I can now and it's a great stress reliever.

February 8, 2012, 06:19 PM	#25
meatgrinder42 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Good Ol' Wisconsin Posts: 327	I wouldn't overlook the .22. They're great to get children to learn their bearings and the auto-loaders hardly recoil at all. Cheap to shoot and even through adulthood they're a blast.