COM vs. Abdomen Targeting

[threegun]

We all seem to agree that a head shot is the best. What we seem to disagree on is the degree of difficulty in making that shot.

The head is easily moved. This movement can turn an instant kill into a nasty gash or even a miss. The head is particularly susceptible to angles. A slight turn of the head can turn a fatal trajectory into a nasty gash or miss. The head is relatively small without factoring in the above, it is the hardest to hit because of this. As a nice bonus we get to increase the difficulty by adding the stress of a life and death struggle. An ingredient that simply cannot be duplicated for practice. So unless you have been there before you cannot predict how it will effect you.

Armed with this knowledge us pelvic girdle shooters are prepared should the head become impossible to hit.

[Tactical Alex]

I'd have to say that while a head shot might be best for ensuring the threat is removed my own experience has made me a firm believer in COM. There are too many "what ifs" to go over for specific issues, but even if hitting someone with a vest you put a few rounds into COM and the target at the very least will be on the ground giving you the precious seconds you need to get away, and unless you're in a combat zone that's pretty much the only thing you're trying to accomplish.

Not to mention that if you go COM and pull your shot high you have the chance of getting a head shot anyway, or pull low and you'll get that Abdomen. For practical shooting I'd stick with COM.

If you're talking about damage, I have a good friend that was a Field Combat Medic for many years, and his opinion is that (removing the head shot scenario) an array of shots throughout the upper torso in general has better results for ending a threat rather than a tight shot group in any one place. I'll see if I can find the article he wrote and post it here, but I've been having trouble tracking it down. My apologies for that.

[threegun]

There are too many "what ifs" to go over for specific issues, but even if hitting someone with a vest you put a few rounds into COM and the target at the very least will be on the ground giving you the precious seconds you need to get away, and unless you're in a combat zone that's pretty much the only thing you're trying to accomplish.

Watch the LA bank robbery video. Guys were hit multiple times without falling. Don't count on a 230 grain bullet to knockdown a 230 pound person. Plus if they are armed with a firearm you are still in danger even if they have fallen.

[Sarge]

Those videos are a reality check, Threegun and thanks for mentioning them. A hard lesson in the concept that one wrench won't fit every nut.

[threegun]

Those videos are a reality check, Threegun and thanks for mentioning them. A hard lesson in the concept that one wrench won't fit every nut.

Thanks. Good video but poo poos my pelvic girdle shooting LOL. These guys were head shot onlys.

[TylerD45ACP]

Absolutley. I head shot with a pistol or 12 gauge when 2 guys with AK's, 2 HKG3, shortened M16, each with a 92fs and 3,500 plus rounds of ammo on them. By the end the BG's had fired 1300 rounds over 44 Minutes. That is about a round every 2 seconds. That scenario must have been insanity. Police cars were turned to swiss cheese. I think they should of put the armored truck into action sooner using it as like a ram. Then shoot out the ports of the truck.

[AK103K]

What we seem to disagree on is the degree of difficulty in making that shot.

I suppose the level of difficulty may come from how you usually shoot and practice, as well as how much you do both.

If you normally shoot at a range where you shoot standing still, gun already in hand, facing targets that are also still (and not even "people" targets), and thats the only way you practice and use that to determine your skill level, then youre likely not to do as well when things become more active.

Making your practice a little more pro active, realistic, and energetic, just continues to pay dividends, and builds confidence like you wouldnt believe. You soon realize that things that are supposed to be so hard to do, really arent at all.

The number of people I know who actually shoot and practice "realistically", and who practice with what they carry, while wearing it as they carry it, and shoot from there, are a lot less than those who just stand at a bench and pop them off.

Moving and shooting seems to be a very foreign concept to many. The same people who shoot tiny groups at the bench and proudly show you, scoff at you when you ask how they do when they draw their gun form concealment as they move off line and shoot while moving past the target.

[threegun]

Ak103K, I practice the way Roger Phillips suggested using the FSR as often as possible given the need to use the private portion of the range out in Dade City Florida.

I'm making my assumptions based on my experience in competitive shooting. I saw my groups explode in size with just the pressure of a timer. I would sometimes forget how I had planned to most efficiently shoot a course of fire when the buzzer sounded. I always did well however my targets weren't moving or shooting back either.

I firmly believe that those of us who practice as we expect to fight will do much better than those who hit only the static range. I also believe that the head will be hard as heck to hit under that pressure.

[AK103K]

I think "everything" will be hard to hit under pressure, if you dont practice to do it, and have it down beforehand. If you dont practice the head shots, they probably will be a problem, just like the COM shots you didnt practice while moving, or drawing and firing from concealment, etc. The less you practice realistically, the more it will show, under any kind of pressure. Everything you can work out beforehand, allows your brain to work on the important stuff without having to worry about it too. Do you think about the presentation, or breaking the shot, or do you just think "guns" and do it?

I just dont see wasting rounds on the pelvis, if thats not going to stop the fight, which I dont believe it will if your opponent is the least bit determined, why waste the ammo? Would you stop shooting if you were hit in the pelvis and went down? To me, that part is the clincher. Both targets are about the same size, both may be moving, and one will likely stop the fight, where the other just has a higher chance of prolonging it, even allowing your opponent the opportunity for just a lucky (for him) shot. He may be down, but theres a high probability, hes not going to be out.


As far as "pressure" goes, it is what you make of it. The whole purpose of working things out ahead of time is to short circuit or redirect that response and allow your brain to work on the problem at hand with less distractions. A gun fight is no different than any other kind of fight (or stressful problem). You go into it with what you have and deal with it as best as you can with what you know. Other than certain "thresholds" crossed, there really is no "plan", as there really cant be. You act/react as it unfolds.

Experience and knowledge tends to reduce pressure and enhance confidence, making things go a little easier. Time is basically irrelevant, as it takes what it takes, and if youre worried about beating the clock, youre likely to beat yourself worrying about the clock. Concentrate on doing what needs done, and do it right the first time. Rushing and screwing up, is worse than being slow and sure.

[mavracer]

I just dont see wasting rounds on the pelvis, if thats not going to stop the fight, which I dont believe it will if your opponent is the least bit determined, why waste the ammo? Would you stop shooting if you were hit in the pelvis and went down? To me, that part is the clincher.

You keep preaching shooting on the move. but wouldn't prefer your opponant to be stationary.

You act/react as it unfolds.

Absolutly. Focus and you do what you can.
Heck the hands and feet are probably the last place I want to hit but they're on the list.

[ClydeFrog]

I disagree with a recent member post.
I, for 1, do not aim first for a subject's head or think the head is the "best" or first target location in a critical event(lethal force).
Many gunners or license holders may think the human head is ideal to cause a quick or immediate response but let's think about that topic;

The human head is a smaller target. It's also not as thick or dense as a human torso. Excessive penetration or a serious risk to a bystander or person not a threat in the event are valid concerns too.
A gun press article written many years ago about civil/court cases that involved head shots made a few related points: If a subject wounded by a gunshot to the head or face lives, they sometimes become a pathetic or sad sight for a court judge & jury to see.
Lawyers and legal support teams(para-legals, PIs, etc) may unfairly paint the armed citizen or sworn LE officer as poorly trained or blood-thristy or cruel because they aimed or shot at a subject's head.

As I posted before, for general protection or duty uses, I aim center mass on human size training targets. Lower torso or head shots may be required in some lethal force incidents but that would be based on the conditions(range, heavy clothing, body armor, etc).
The 1997 Bank of America/LAPD incident is a good example. One of the violent, armed bank robbers was wearing class IV body armor. He was shot in the feet & lower legs by LAPD officers on the crime scene.

[MikeNice81]

Clyde, I know a cop that ended a OIS with a shot to the victims head. When the state asked why he shot for the head he simply articulated the situation. There was no magic attempt to turn him in to a villian. If you can reasonably articulate why a head shot was needed chances are it won't be an issue.

A good shoot is a good shoot. I wouldn't make it my first shot. If I get up to number three or four it is an option though.

Why did you shoot him in the head?

Multiple attempts to stop him with shots to the torso proved ineffective. He continued to advance and pose a threat. I took his determination to mean that he would not stop untill he caused serious bodily injury, or killed, someone in my home.

[AK103K]

You keep preaching shooting on the move. but wouldn't prefer your opponant to be stationary.

Sure Id like them still, but Im not counting on it, and Im not going to be if I can help it. If they want to stand there and shoot where I was, that does make it easier, and would be great.

The whole point of moving is to be less of a target yourself, and give yourself as much of an edge as you can. Its also a natural thing, in any kind of fight, so why fight it? Shooting while moving is actually a lot easier than it sounds, especially with a little practice. Then again, if you dont, or have never practiced it, it may seem intimidating.

I, for 1, do not aim first for a subject's head or think the head is the "best" or first target location in a critical event

Its not the "first" target, but the next response to the COM shots failing to give the desired result.

The human head is a smaller target. It's also not as thick or dense as a human torso. Excessive penetration or a serious risk to a bystander or person not a threat in the event are valid concerns too.
A gun press article written many years ago about civil/court cases that involved head shots made a few related points: If a subject wounded by a gunshot to the head or face lives, they sometimes become a pathetic or sad sight for a court judge & jury to see.
Lawyers and legal support teams(para-legals, PIs, etc) may unfairly paint the armed citizen or sworn LE officer as poorly trained or blood-thristy or cruel because they aimed or shot at a subject's head. .

Ill take winning the first fight and having to deal with court afterwords, than losing the first fight, because I was so worried about what "might" happen in the aftermath that I hesitated doing what was needed to win.

I understand its something that needs to be understood, and considered, but it has no place in in your mind during the fight. The only thing there should be the focus on winning the fight.

[BlueTrain]

Without arguing against the suggestion that practice should be more realistic, here replying to AK103K especially, the simple fact of the matter is, for most of us there's no place to do that. All ranges I've used wouldn't allow you to do anything but stand in one place and shoot and one wouldn't even allow rapid fire (although .50 caliber rifles were OK). Outside of having your own private range or backcountry strip mine, where I used to do all my shooting before moving to the city, the only place I can think of is a police or military range. I never used any army range where you could realistically move around either, come to think of it.

It might be worth mentioning here that there's a difference between military situations and personal self-defense situtations and even those can be varied, depending on where you are, inside or outside. So you may never see a person presenting themselves as a full target, unless perhaps they're very close. But that's one of the big differences between military combat and personal self-defense. In any case, the head will always be exposed as a target, the rest of the body may or may not be.

I believe I read somewhere that often fire is directed towards the weapon.

[MLeake]

BlueTrain, from what I understand, it isn't that fire is "directed" toward the weapon so much as it's a matter of people fixating on that enormous-looking muzzle pointed their way... Anybody who skis, skates, or rides motorcycles knows what tends to happen when you fixate on and stare at something - your whole body tends to orient to that point.

[Rifleman1776]

Most of us are not highly trained or disiplined for shooting at another human. If the need arises, I want to hit the bad guy somewhere.
For me, that is a COM hold. Higher percentage of chance there will be a hit. If my mind and gun are still functioning, follow-up shots may be able to be placed more precisely.

[threegun]

Experience and knowledge tends to reduce pressure and enhance confidence, making things go a little easier. Time is basically irrelevant, as it takes what it takes, and if youre worried about beating the clock, youre likely to beat yourself worrying about the clock. Concentrate on doing what needs done, and do it right the first time. Rushing and screwing up, is worse than being slow and sure.

AK103K,
In your shootout how did you handle the pressure of potentially dying? Time may be irrelevant but when someone is about to kill you it seems a difficult task to control the feeling that it is running out.

[BlueTrain]

No offense but some of are already at the point where time is running out.

[warrior poet]

Most of us are not highly trained or disiplined for shooting at another human. If the need arises, I want to hit the bad guy somewhere.
For me, that is a COM hold. Higher percentage of chance there will be a hit. If my mind and gun are still functioning, follow-up shots may be able to be placed more precisely.

+1.

Thank you Rifleman1776.

[AK103K]

AK103K,
In your shootout how did you handle the pressure of potentially dying? Time may be irrelevant but when someone is about to kill you it seems a difficult task to control the feeling that it is running out.

How do you handle the pressure in any situation where your life might be on the line? Panic? Freeze? Keep your head and work through it? I suppose you never know until you get to address it for real a couple of times. I will say, I have yet to see anything in a match or games arena that even came close to introducing "stress", like the real thing of any sort that started you on that path.

The times Ive come close, I cant ever remember "time" ever getting a thought (and in a couple of those cases, time could have been considered very relevant). I was to busy dealing with the problems at hand and working on solving them. So far, all problems solved in my favor, and only a few scars and recurring aches and pains to remind me of the adventures at hand.

One thing I have noticed over the years is, as you go through things and learn to deal with, and accept things like stress, pressure, your emotions, you tend to deal with subsequent things with more poise, focus, and less anxiety. For some reason, you also dont seem to be as easily surprised (by or about a lot of things) as you were before either.


Im really not much on poetry, but as a kid, I was given Cooke's "How did you die?" to read by my father, and it had a pretty big effect on me. For that matter, to this day, it still does, and at this point, I know it by heart. Im sure you can Google up a copy if you dont know it, but I think youll find it sums a lot of things up nicely.

[threegun]

Good poem thanks.

I hope to fight well. I plan on fighting till I'm no longer capable. If I die I won't know it so why worry about it.

That said when I pull up to the range on competition morning my stomach starts aching and I usually have to visit the head. This despite all efforts to relax and stay calm.

I am able to function well enough to be very competitive however the nerves take a toll. I can't imagine gunfight pressure being easier.

I hope that the suddenness of most fights won't give me time to get the nerves going.

[TylerD45ACP]

I have already set my mind to if I am in a SD shoot I am probably going to get hit. I might get hit bad, maybe not so bad. My school of thought is 'Im so ****** off this THUG will make my family loose me so I WONT die. I will fight until physically no longer capable. I decided upon that mindset a long time ago. I want to take em with me if Im going too.

[threegun]

My thinking as well. Nice post.

Hope it works on judgment day.

[TylerD45ACP]

Me too, same to you brother. I hope that day never comes for either of us.

[jon_in_wv]

I used to occasionally teach a women's self defense course. I used to ask them how they would fight a larger man if he attacked them. They would usually say they couldn't. Then I would ask what they would do if they were walking with one of their children and the man attacked their child. Then they would say they would fight to their last breath. Why? Because they love their child. But don't your children love YOU?? Wouldn't your loved ones want you to fight just as hard for their Dad? of Mom? You are JUST as important to them. You aren't fighting for YOU, you are fighting so your child won't be an orphan or grow up without a dad or mom. If you don't have children, you still ARE someone's child. No parent wants to outlive their child.