Martial arts tailored to modern carry?

irish52084 · July 10, 2011, 12:08 AM

Do any of you know of a book/dvd/trainer who has taken the time to adapt some martial arts training to address the specific needs of the concealed weapon carrier? I'm thinking less disarming your attacker and more like grappling/fighting with someone while trying to get to a weapon. Maybe the use of a knife in conjunction with a firearm and even body positioning etc...
Maybe even modifying clinch grips and body position or using trips/takedowns that minimize an opponents ability to reach for your weapon.

I've been laid off quite a bit recently, so I have had lots of free time to think of things like this. As a person who has trained in some form of martial art for most of my life, I can't think of too many things I learned that specifically involved a firearm.

Feel free to throw your own ideas out there if you are so inclined.

I wonder how long this wills stay on track, if it even gets started?

9-ball · July 10, 2011, 06:48 AM

Look for Systema Spetsnaz, they have some pretty good firearm techniques too. I don't have experience with Krav Maga, but I know they focus on the same principles. Beware of trying to learn martial arts from a DVD. In my experience, real martial artists don't sell DVD's. Imposters do (I'm thinking about Lynn C. Thompson for example). Try to get some real training.

**Bud Helms** · July 10, 2011, 07:08 AM

Off to T&T ...

smince · July 10, 2011, 07:11 AM

Look to Tom Sotis/AMOK!

Mark Denny/Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Suarez International 0-5Ft Gunfighting and H2H4CCW

These are the one's I have personal experience with.

irish52084 · July 10, 2011, 10:00 AM

I'm not planning on attempting to master some new martial art via dvd or book, I was more curious to see if anyone had done what I was thinking of.

I'll check out the stuff listed so far and see if I like it.

pax · July 10, 2011, 10:32 AM

Some more names:

Rob Pincus

Rory Miller (www.chirontraining.com)

SouthNarc

pax

MLeake · July 10, 2011, 12:06 PM

irish,

It seems to me that any training that focuses on weapon retention would apply.

For instance, in aikido, we often train to take away bokken, jo staff, tanto, etc. But sometimes we also practice retaining and employing the weapon against the person who is trying to take it.

In fact, some takedowns and locks, such as nikkyo, derive directly from stopping a disarm attempt.

I think one of the best basic skills to learn is to NOT try to match strength for strength or grab for grab, but instead to move - with diagonal and/or rotary motion. If somebody tries to grab my sheathed or holstered weapon, I don't want to grab his wrist and wrestle. I might grab his wrist and then pivot on one foot, and use 200lbs of whole-body torque against his wrist while I rotate the weapon to his weak side.

And, of course, at the same time attack him. He's focused on the weapon, not on protecting his eyes and throat; he's focused on the hand on his wrist, not on the heel driving into the side or back of his knee.

smince · July 10, 2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

I'm not planning on attempting to master some new martial art via dvd or book,

You won't become a "master" from taking one (or all) of the 2-3 day courses posted by pax and myself either.

But both those and the DVD material can be helpful. As with taking a long-term structured MA class, you need to find a like-minded training partner to put the material to practice.

KenpoTex · July 10, 2011, 07:06 PM

SouthNarc is the man when it comes to this stuff, his DVDs "Fighting Handgun" and "Practical Unarmed Combat" give a good look at the material. His class "Extreme Close Quarters Concepts" should be, IMO, high on the list for anyone who wants to be truly prepared.

Marc Denny's "Die Less Often" series is also excellent, I'd love to take some training from him someday.

cosmicdingo · July 10, 2011, 10:25 PM

Krav Maga.Optimized for handgun/rifle use and disarms.

DRBoyle · July 11, 2011, 04:39 AM

Remember reading something about the Marine Corps and their LINE technique for the close quarters. From memory their martial arts incorporates everything including armed and unarmed combat with an emphasis on practical
applications. No personal experience with it, but hopefully that helps you research and find what you wanted out of a technique.

It wouldn't unreasonable to expect a few dvd's out there. Sure there's a video from a former SEAL out there for you to look at as well.

9-ball · July 11, 2011, 05:00 AM

DRBoyle,

I'm sorry to announce you that MCMAP is a pile of ****

I've practised martial arts since I was 6 years old, leaving me with some sense of what works and what doesn't (so I hope). When I watched some documentaries about MCMAP, I showed respect for their harder training aspects (like the boxing etc) but the individual techniques that they learned were a combination of what seemed to be very basic Judo (I'm talking about the first week you practice Judo) and WWE (no comment). In all, my opinion, and those of my training partners, MCMAP is more taught to give marines a secure feeling than actually be effective.

Krav Maga and Systema is the way to go if you want to incorporate gun techniques.

DRBoyle · July 11, 2011, 06:15 AM

Quote:

DRBoyle,

I'm sorry to announce you that MCMAP is a pile of ****

9-ball absolutely no need to say sorrow or apologies in anyway.
Admittedly I don't know much about it but heard it mentioned favourably. Figured suggesting it as an option might help the OP in his search. A bonus is if someone with experience comes forward with a knowledgeable opinion. That's what you did here so actually thank you very much for coming forward. Appreciated the share of information.

Skans · July 11, 2011, 08:31 AM

I have trained with a guy that is excellent at incorporating defensive firearms training with martial arts/fighting techniques. He's a pretty private guy and is not offering any courses at this time, so I really can't give his name out. He's a personal friend, used to instruct me in boxing /kickboxing and other fighting techniques for years. I've trained several times with him, where he incorporates fighting techniques with defensive handgun training. If you've never done this, it's really not what you might think - not a lot of punching - kicking going on and anyone can benefit from this (my opinion). It really makes you think about when, how to and when not to use a concealed weapon. It also teaches you the limitations with always relying on your handgun as opposed to using other physical techniques when faced with various attack scenarios.

Great stuff - I highly recommend this type of training!!!!

Rob Pincus · August 5, 2011, 05:30 PM

Thanks for the mention, Pax.

FWIW, After this months Black Belt Magazine cover, we are now offering 5 day programs to Martial Artists interested in integrating firearms into their existing self-defense programs. Expect to see more large scale integration if the program is successful. The first course is almost full (Sept) and we got great response/interest at the Martial Arts Industry Association trade show a couple of weeks ago.

Martial Artists' Firearms Training Course, Phase I

Martial Artists' Firearms Training Course, Phase II

BeachHead · August 5, 2011, 06:00 PM

Former Spetznaz operative Sonny Puzikas is a badass. Don't know if you can find the DVD even though the video says it was scheduled for release in Spring 2011.

http://www.youtube.com/user/gospelof...16/e_zS5Q1dDNU

irish52084 · August 5, 2011, 11:01 PM

Nice to see a combination class coming up. I've tailored some of my own knowledge to hopefully work in what I see as common situations of weapons retention or getting myself into a position to employ a weapon. It will be nice to see other peoples thoughts and methods.

JerryM · August 6, 2011, 09:05 AM

I intend no offense, but have to wonder when so many spend so much money and time to take course after course to prepare for something that has about as much liklihood of happening as being struck by lightning.

I am of the opinion that much of it is simply a sport. Am I correct? Nothing wrong with that.

Jerry

irish52084 · August 6, 2011, 12:09 PM

Jerry, are you talking about martial arts or firearms courses?

JerryM · August 6, 2011, 02:02 PM

Hi irish52084,

Both. I recognize that there is pleasure in the shooting sports, and shooting in general. Also that some enjoy the martial arts.
My wonder comes from the SD aspect of combining both shooting and martial arts. I get the impression some are preparing for a high probability threat that would require them to fight and shoot.

I don't have an argument with anyone who desires to use a big part of their time and money to do the available training, but I wonder if they really expect to have to use the skills learned in the real world or if it is just mostly for fun?

I am under the impression that there are those whose lives center around the gun and SD. Most of their decisions are based upon those two factors.

My own observations and experience indicates that if one stays away from bars and other potentially trouble spots he has a better chance of getting struck by lightning than being attacked. I do not personally know anyone who has been in a situation that was a life and death situation other than in the military or LEO.

Thanks for the reply, and I do not mean to demean those who place their guns and SD at or near the top of their life priorities. I just do not understand why they think there is so much danger all around them. I don't consider that a shooting somewhere puts me at risk if I pay attention to where I go, and what I do.

Regards,
Jerry

irish52084 · August 6, 2011, 02:37 PM

Jerry, your points are well said and valid. It's very unlikely that non military or LEO will need to use their weapon. It's a 1% kind of thing, but it's the 1% you can't get wrong.

I know for me it's both a learning/enjoyment aspect as well as good training. I've been training in some form of martial arts, sport etc... for so long that it's foreign to me to not train. I'm not interested in creating some sort of fighting style that incorporates a pistol, more of a how do I quickly and forcefully create the space and time for me to engage a weapon.

If I'm put in a bad spot, can I survive long enough to get to my weapon while grappling with an attacker? Can I get to secondary gear like a knife, oc spray etc... while in a physical confrontation? Can I win a fight quickly and decisively without my gun if I can't or don't want to use it? Am I prepared mentally for physical confrontation? These are all the kinds of questions I ask myself when I evaluate how I'm training.

I don't have the time, talent or resources to be the best in the world with a defensive pistol or any sort of martial art, but neither do criminals. They are usually criminals, because they aren't very motivated and even a small bit of training is a huge edge when dealing with an untrained attacker. Just knowing how it feels to move a resisting opponent, sense balance and weight shifts and use them to your advantage is a huge deal. Knowing that it takes up to 8 seconds to pass out from a blood choke and how to defend chokes and how restrain people is a big deal. I'm no bad ass master of fighting, but I know how to handle myself better than 99.9% of people and that's the best I can do.

Plus, it's FUN to train!

smince · August 6, 2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

I get the impression some are preparing for a high probability threat that would require them to fight and shoot.

If and when an attack happens, it (most probably) won't be at 7 yds with a stationary target like on the shooting range. It will likely be at bad-breath distance and require some type of hands-on contact.

Quote:

My own observations and experience indicates that if one stays away from bars and other potentially trouble spots he has a better chance of getting struck by lightning than being attacked.

Quote:

I just do not understand why they think there is so much danger all around them. I don't consider that a shooting somewhere puts me at risk if I pay attention to where I go, and what I do.

Looking at the headlines, people get attacked in 'safe' areas constantly. Just because you don't go to trouble spots doesn't negate that they often times come to where you are.

Malls, schools, churches, office buildings, etc are not usual 'trouble spots'. Neither are most homes, but bad things happen at these places too.

Again, look at the world around us. Sure, I live in a relatively low crime area. But when violence comes, it can happen anywhere and with little warning. There is a thread in this forum about an attack on a bus if you haven't read it yet.

So, yes, I spend extra and take all the training classes I can afford as extra insurance for myself and family. I also take precautionary steps to avoid lighting strikes, to use your example.

Some people don't really 'get it' until after a terrible event happens to them or a family member. Sadly some still don't get it even after such an incident.

Read my signature line. then read it again.

I truly hope you will open you eyes to the very real possibility.

JerryM · August 6, 2011, 05:02 PM

Thanks, irish52084,
I cannot argue with your view, and I do know that many enjoy the martial arts just for the skill developed, and the physical development. My son started the martial arts when he was about 6 years old, and continued until recently when he was in his late 40s. Body building was and is an important part of him for both conditioning and stress relief.

There is no question that there are scenarios that would require those skills and maybe along with a SD handgun or knife.

Smince, although attacks do occur in Malls, schools, churches, office buildings, etc which are not usual 'trouble spots, if one considers the numbers of people and the hours spent in them the odds are truly miniscule, and unless there is a history of attacks there I don’t give the danger much thought. If I lived in a city where gangs of teens or young gang bangers gathered in malls, etc then I would make sure I was armed if I needed to go there.
But otherwise there is not a 1 in many thousands chance you will get attacked. I do not know a single person who has ever needed to fight off an attacker any place. Most people I know, including retired military and LEOs do not see the need to carry, and they are senior citizens who have lived a long time without needing either martial arts or firearms.

If you just want to train and prepare for a one in many thousands probability then that is fine, and I won’t argue with it. However, I am convinced that the fears of attack are greatly exaggerated, and not worth spending much time being concerned.
Since I just like guns, and nice holsters and belts, I do have several carry guns, and do carry most of the time. I never practice “bull’s eye” shooting but always shoot after drawing from the holster. I have no thought I will need a fast draw, but just enjoy such shooting.

Anyway, mostly I was just curious, and I do appreciate the replies. I agree if one never needs to act in SD he will not have lost anything, but will have enjoyed the time spent. Of course if one is injured in the martial arts he may suffer some pain in later years.

Regards,
Jerry

MikeNice81 · August 7, 2011, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Both. I recognize that there is pleasure in the shooting sports, and shooting in general. Also that some enjoy the martial arts.
My wonder comes from the SD aspect of combining both shooting and martial arts. I get the impression some are preparing for a high probability threat that would require them to fight and shoot.

I have been in the position where the only thing that gave me time to draw was having a shopping cart. With out the cart I would have been hands on with a guy using a knife. I would have had to disarm the guy or create space. Either way I would have been going for my gun after the initial physical altercation. With space he can close in. If he is disarmed and concious he can keep trying or rearm.

It isn't probable that it will happen to a person. It isn't probable that a person will ever need a gun for defense. However, somebody has to fall on the wrong side of the bell curve. I've been there a couple of times. I like to be ready incase it happens again.

Quote:

I don't consider that a shooting somewhere puts me at risk if I pay attention to where I go, and what I do.

A guy with a knife tried to rob me leaving a bix box store in the middle of the afternoon with a parking lot full of cars. Where should I be any safer? There was traffice less than 60 feet away and I was in the middle of a traffic lane. It wasn't a "bad neighborhood" or the "wrong time" of day. It was a matter of a criminal that was desperate and creative trying to take my money and probably my life.

The shopping cart gave me time to get to my weapon. It didn't stop him. When he saw I wasn't going to give him the money he tried to advance with the knife. Staring down the barrel of a 3" .38spl changed his mind.

Self defense isn't the center of my life. My family is the center of my life. That is why sd is a close second. It is my duty to provide materially, mentally, and emotionally for my family. To do that I have to be able to keep myself alive if something happens.

It is also my duty to protect my wife and child. So, I train in the use of self defense and work to stay in decent shape. I also have to be mentally prepared and understand that criminals don't play by our rules. They don't live up to our expectations. If they think they can strike they will. They are predatory animals that will strike when they believe they have the chance at success.

You can take all the precautions you want. They will lower the chances of something happening. Nothing eliminates the chance though. So, I decide to stay prepared.

smince · August 7, 2011, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Most people I know, including retired military and LEOs do not see the need to carry, and they are senior citizens who have lived a long time without needing either martial arts or firearms.

I know many current LE who don't feel the need to carry off-duty. And they should know better.

Looking at what the PD or .Mil does off duty or retired is a lot like looking at the political views of movie and rock stars: it is just their opinion and does not necessarily reflect what is good for myself, family or the general population.

Carry on in your blissful state and I truly hope you never need those skills that you see no need for.

July 10, 2011, 12:08 AM	#1
irish52084 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one. Posts: 514	Martial arts tailored to modern carry? Do any of you know of a book/dvd/trainer who has taken the time to adapt some martial arts training to address the specific needs of the concealed weapon carrier? I'm thinking less disarming your attacker and more like grappling/fighting with someone while trying to get to a weapon. Maybe the use of a knife in conjunction with a firearm and even body positioning etc... Maybe even modifying clinch grips and body position or using trips/takedowns that minimize an opponents ability to reach for your weapon. I've been laid off quite a bit recently, so I have had lots of free time to think of things like this. As a person who has trained in some form of martial art for most of my life, I can't think of too many things I learned that specifically involved a firearm. Feel free to throw your own ideas out there if you are so inclined. I wonder how long this wills stay on track, if it even gets started?

July 10, 2011, 10:32 AM	#6
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Some more names: Rob Pincus Rory Miller (www.chirontraining.com) SouthNarc pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

July 10, 2011, 07:06 PM	#9
KenpoTex Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2009 Location: SW Missouri Posts: 215	SouthNarc is the man when it comes to this stuff, his DVDs "Fighting Handgun" and "Practical Unarmed Combat" give a good look at the material. His class "Extreme Close Quarters Concepts" should be, IMO, high on the list for anyone who wants to be truly prepared. Marc Denny's "Die Less Often" series is also excellent, I'd love to take some training from him someday. __________________ "Either you are the weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is the weapon and you are a tool." Matt K.

July 11, 2011, 05:00 AM	#12
9-ball Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2011 Location: Belgium Posts: 340	DRBoyle, I'm sorry to announce you that MCMAP is a pile of **** I've practised martial arts since I was 6 years old, leaving me with some sense of what works and what doesn't (so I hope). When I watched some documentaries about MCMAP, I showed respect for their harder training aspects (like the boxing etc) but the individual techniques that they learned were a combination of what seemed to be very basic Judo (I'm talking about the first week you practice Judo) and WWE (no comment). In all, my opinion, and those of my training partners, MCMAP is more taught to give marines a secure feeling than actually be effective. Krav Maga and Systema is the way to go if you want to incorporate gun techniques. __________________ Quality of life is measured by number of rounds fired, quantity of life by number of rounds left to fire.

August 5, 2011, 05:30 PM	#15
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Thanks for the mention, Pax. FWIW, After this months Black Belt Magazine cover, we are now offering 5 day programs to Martial Artists interested in integrating firearms into their existing self-defense programs. Expect to see more large scale integration if the program is successful. The first course is almost full (Sept) and we got great response/interest at the Martial Arts Industry Association trade show a couple of weeks ago. Martial Artists' Firearms Training Course, Phase I Martial Artists' Firearms Training Course, Phase II __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

July 10, 2011, 06:48 AM	#2
9-ball Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2011 Location: Belgium Posts: 340	Look for Systema Spetsnaz, they have some pretty good firearm techniques too. I don't have experience with Krav Maga, but I know they focus on the same principles. Beware of trying to learn martial arts from a DVD. In my experience, real martial artists don't sell DVD's. Imposters do (I'm thinking about Lynn C. Thompson for example). Try to get some real training.

July 10, 2011, 07:08 AM	#3
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Off to T&T ...

July 10, 2011, 07:11 AM	#4
smince Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Northeast Alabama Posts: 2,580	Look to Tom Sotis/AMOK! Mark Denny/Dog Brothers Martial Arts Suarez International 0-5Ft Gunfighting and H2H4CCW These are the one's I have personal experience with.

July 10, 2011, 10:00 AM	#5
irish52084 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one. Posts: 514	I'm not planning on attempting to master some new martial art via dvd or book, I was more curious to see if anyone had done what I was thinking of. I'll check out the stuff listed so far and see if I like it.

July 10, 2011, 12:06 PM	#7
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	irish, It seems to me that any training that focuses on weapon retention would apply. For instance, in aikido, we often train to take away bokken, jo staff, tanto, etc. But sometimes we also practice retaining and employing the weapon against the person who is trying to take it. In fact, some takedowns and locks, such as nikkyo, derive directly from stopping a disarm attempt. I think one of the best basic skills to learn is to NOT try to match strength for strength or grab for grab, but instead to move - with diagonal and/or rotary motion. If somebody tries to grab my sheathed or holstered weapon, I don't want to grab his wrist and wrestle. I might grab his wrist and then pivot on one foot, and use 200lbs of whole-body torque against his wrist while I rotate the weapon to his weak side. And, of course, at the same time attack him. He's focused on the weapon, not on protecting his eyes and throat; he's focused on the hand on his wrist, not on the heel driving into the side or back of his knee.

July 10, 2011, 10:25 PM	#10
cosmicdingo Member Join Date: December 12, 2010 Posts: 64	Krav Maga.Optimized for handgun/rifle use and disarms.

July 11, 2011, 04:39 AM	#11
DRBoyle Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2010 Posts: 124	Remember reading something about the Marine Corps and their LINE technique for the close quarters. From memory their martial arts incorporates everything including armed and unarmed combat with an emphasis on practical applications. No personal experience with it, but hopefully that helps you research and find what you wanted out of a technique. It wouldn't unreasonable to expect a few dvd's out there. Sure there's a video from a former SEAL out there for you to look at as well.

July 11, 2011, 08:31 AM	#14
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I have trained with a guy that is excellent at incorporating defensive firearms training with martial arts/fighting techniques. He's a pretty private guy and is not offering any courses at this time, so I really can't give his name out. He's a personal friend, used to instruct me in boxing /kickboxing and other fighting techniques for years. I've trained several times with him, where he incorporates fighting techniques with defensive handgun training. If you've never done this, it's really not what you might think - not a lot of punching - kicking going on and anyone can benefit from this (my opinion). It really makes you think about when, how to and when not to use a concealed weapon. It also teaches you the limitations with always relying on your handgun as opposed to using other physical techniques when faced with various attack scenarios. Great stuff - I highly recommend this type of training!!!!

August 5, 2011, 06:00 PM	#16
BeachHead Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2005 Location: Castro Valley, CA Posts: 132	Former Spetznaz operative Sonny Puzikas is a badass. Don't know if you can find the DVD even though the video says it was scheduled for release in Spring 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/gospelof...16/e_zS5Q1dDNU

August 5, 2011, 11:01 PM	#17
irish52084 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one. Posts: 514	Nice to see a combination class coming up. I've tailored some of my own knowledge to hopefully work in what I see as common situations of weapons retention or getting myself into a position to employ a weapon. It will be nice to see other peoples thoughts and methods.

August 6, 2011, 09:05 AM	#18
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	I intend no offense, but have to wonder when so many spend so much money and time to take course after course to prepare for something that has about as much liklihood of happening as being struck by lightning. I am of the opinion that much of it is simply a sport. Am I correct? Nothing wrong with that. Jerry __________________ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

August 6, 2011, 12:09 PM	#19
irish52084 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one. Posts: 514	Jerry, are you talking about martial arts or firearms courses?

August 6, 2011, 02:02 PM	#20
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	Hi irish52084, Both. I recognize that there is pleasure in the shooting sports, and shooting in general. Also that some enjoy the martial arts. My wonder comes from the SD aspect of combining both shooting and martial arts. I get the impression some are preparing for a high probability threat that would require them to fight and shoot. I don't have an argument with anyone who desires to use a big part of their time and money to do the available training, but I wonder if they really expect to have to use the skills learned in the real world or if it is just mostly for fun? I am under the impression that there are those whose lives center around the gun and SD. Most of their decisions are based upon those two factors. My own observations and experience indicates that if one stays away from bars and other potentially trouble spots he has a better chance of getting struck by lightning than being attacked. I do not personally know anyone who has been in a situation that was a life and death situation other than in the military or LEO. Thanks for the reply, and I do not mean to demean those who place their guns and SD at or near the top of their life priorities. I just do not understand why they think there is so much danger all around them. I don't consider that a shooting somewhere puts me at risk if I pay attention to where I go, and what I do. Regards, Jerry __________________ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

August 6, 2011, 02:37 PM	#21
irish52084 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one. Posts: 514	Jerry, your points are well said and valid. It's very unlikely that non military or LEO will need to use their weapon. It's a 1% kind of thing, but it's the 1% you can't get wrong. I know for me it's both a learning/enjoyment aspect as well as good training. I've been training in some form of martial arts, sport etc... for so long that it's foreign to me to not train. I'm not interested in creating some sort of fighting style that incorporates a pistol, more of a how do I quickly and forcefully create the space and time for me to engage a weapon. If I'm put in a bad spot, can I survive long enough to get to my weapon while grappling with an attacker? Can I get to secondary gear like a knife, oc spray etc... while in a physical confrontation? Can I win a fight quickly and decisively without my gun if I can't or don't want to use it? Am I prepared mentally for physical confrontation? These are all the kinds of questions I ask myself when I evaluate how I'm training. I don't have the time, talent or resources to be the best in the world with a defensive pistol or any sort of martial art, but neither do criminals. They are usually criminals, because they aren't very motivated and even a small bit of training is a huge edge when dealing with an untrained attacker. Just knowing how it feels to move a resisting opponent, sense balance and weight shifts and use them to your advantage is a huge deal. Knowing that it takes up to 8 seconds to pass out from a blood choke and how to defend chokes and how restrain people is a big deal. I'm no bad ass master of fighting, but I know how to handle myself better than 99.9% of people and that's the best I can do. Plus, it's FUN to train!

August 6, 2011, 05:02 PM	#23
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	Thanks, irish52084, I cannot argue with your view, and I do know that many enjoy the martial arts just for the skill developed, and the physical development. My son started the martial arts when he was about 6 years old, and continued until recently when he was in his late 40s. Body building was and is an important part of him for both conditioning and stress relief. There is no question that there are scenarios that would require those skills and maybe along with a SD handgun or knife. Smince, although attacks do occur in Malls, schools, churches, office buildings, etc which are not usual 'trouble spots, if one considers the numbers of people and the hours spent in them the odds are truly miniscule, and unless there is a history of attacks there I don’t give the danger much thought. If I lived in a city where gangs of teens or young gang bangers gathered in malls, etc then I would make sure I was armed if I needed to go there. But otherwise there is not a 1 in many thousands chance you will get attacked. I do not know a single person who has ever needed to fight off an attacker any place. Most people I know, including retired military and LEOs do not see the need to carry, and they are senior citizens who have lived a long time without needing either martial arts or firearms. If you just want to train and prepare for a one in many thousands probability then that is fine, and I won’t argue with it. However, I am convinced that the fears of attack are greatly exaggerated, and not worth spending much time being concerned. Since I just like guns, and nice holsters and belts, I do have several carry guns, and do carry most of the time. I never practice “bull’s eye” shooting but always shoot after drawing from the holster. I have no thought I will need a fast draw, but just enjoy such shooting. Anyway, mostly I was just curious, and I do appreciate the replies. I agree if one never needs to act in SD he will not have lost anything, but will have enjoyed the time spent. Of course if one is injured in the martial arts he may suffer some pain in later years. Regards, Jerry __________________ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.