Length of Pull

[PlatinumCore16]

So I did a little searching, not just here but elsewhere on the interwebz and I didn't find the answer I was looking for, so I thought I'd make an account and ask it:
The general consensus is that length of pull(LoP) is generally too long for most people on most firearms. Now, I'm slightly above average, apprx 6'2", and the only long gun I've owned personally is a Mosin. I grew up shooting a .22 Winchester that my grandfather traded for a car radio in the 1960's, so I never really thought about LoP on that. Also since it was my grandfathers I wasn't the only one to use it. Now after I put a replacement stock pad on my Mosin, that metal was a little too harsh, it does feel a little better. I haven't measured it, of course, but that's my only experience with LoP. Like I said, I've read that LoP is usually too long, but that's a generality based on averages. I know I'm slightly above average height, but am I really that much taller/longer armed that I'm not of the general LoP? Continue reading for my specific example/root problem:

I bought a Stevens 320 last week and took it to the range. After punching my nose with my thumb a couple times, I pulled my head back on the stock and I no longer felt like I was gonna get it in the face. However, I'm curious: the 320 is at a LoP of 13 3/4, according to the articles I've read, since Savage doesn't have that measurement on their website. Now the other day I took a ruler to my forearm and using the estimation method of trigger finger hooked to inside of bicep, my LoP is over 15 inches! Seeing as this is my HD CQB shotgun, do I lengthen the stock to be able to have a better grip/better sight picture/no fears of punching myself in the nose, or would that be messing with the CQB effectiveness? Do I just learn to shoot it shorter for better maneuverability or do I make it longer, lose some of that handling, to get better aimability/repeatability? Would lengthening it even lose me any handling? Is it just my form? I understand that a lot of these questions are tough when you aren't standing next to me looking at me holding the gun, nor am I at home to handle the gun to give you specifics on that either.

Sorry if the answer seems obvious, but I'm not sure which route to take here.
Thanks,
Platinum

[Nathan]

The method you used to measure is a bit of an old school method. Think old wives tale.

Look at the modern long gun technique. It uses a stance where facing the target, with feet shoulder width spart, you take a medium length step forward with your off hand foot. With shoulders still comfortably square to the target and your off hand arm straight out, grab the stock with your off hand such that your thumb points at the target.

Ill bet your length of pull feels too long. Adjust yout torso angle until the length of pull is comfortable. Now you are in the modern stance.

It improves line of sight as well as natural aiming. You should be able to hit to 15 yards without sights and get on the sights faster than ever before. Your torso should also be less wound up and ready to twist and find targets.

[44 AMP]

Welcome! Interesting question!

I don't know what you've been reading, but this is the first time I have ever heard of the length of pull being too LONG for MOST people.

Usually, its the opposite. Military rifles, around the world, for the last century plus have usually had stocks that were on the SHORT(er) end of the usual range for length of pull.

The reasoning is simple, a stock that is shorter than optimum for the shooter can still be used, rapidly and efficiently enough. while a stock that is too long is a greater drawback.

If you're bumping your nose, your face is too far forward, and your thumb is in the wrong spot. A stock that is too short magnifies the problem, but isn't the cause.

Put a slip on recoil pad on your gun, this will increase the LOP a couple inches, and comes right off if its not a benefit to you.

Can't comment on your form, without seeing it, but you're a tall guy, so about EVERY factory stock you'll find will be too short for you.

Hope this helps!

[FITASC]

Now the other day I took a ruler to my forearm and using the estimation method of trigger finger hooked to inside of bicep, my LoP is over 15 inches!

Do not measure your LOP this way.

I am almost 6'3, and my LOP depends on the gun AND the way I am shooting it. Target shotguns for me can range from 14.5 to 15.5" depending on stock configuration. For rifles (hunting, not military drills), run 14.25 to 14.75. The grip radius has a lot to do with it - big difference between a slight grip on a sporterized rifle versus the almost vertical one on an AR. The more vertical the grip, the shorter the LOP. A lot can also depend on where/how you use your offhand - close to the breech or extended almost all the way out?. There there is the stock - drop at heel, drop at comb, thickness of the comb pitch, toe, etc.

[PlatinumCore16]

Thanks for all of the replies. Nathan, I think you've got a huge point here. Thinking about it, I shoot in a very bladed stance. Probably because that's what I was taught a long time again and that's just how I've always shot. I'll definitely try a little more of an open stance and see how that goes.

.44 I agree with you that my head was too far forward, but that's where it felt comfortable dropping my head down onto the stock and when I moved it back I felt like I was acting like a turtle and scrunching up my neck. Perhaps attempting to open the stance, like Nathan offered, might help with that.

I'll let y'all know how my next range session goes, but I'm thinking that spacers might be in my future. Or perhaps just a slip on pad, though I would rather have something that is positively attached to the stock.

[44 AMP]

A slip on pad is for figuring out what you need, and to see if it works. Permanent comes after you figure it out.

DROP also makes a difference.

My Grandfather had a double Ithaca with the stock made to his order. It has more drop in the stock than is customary. Pull length is fine for me, but the first time I shot that gun as a teen, I split my lip open with my right thumb!

Two lessons learned, a stock with more drop makes the gun come "up" more in recoil, and DON"T wrap your thumb over the stock!

Lots of us are "stock crawlers" to some degree, works ok with light recoiling things, lots less so as recoil increases. Consider just laying your head "over" on to the stock, instead of forward and down, it may feel strange but it can make a difference, especially with certain guns.

The "nose against the charging handle" that I've had people tell me they got taught for the AR doesn't seem like a good idea to me when shooting a 12ga!

[FrankenMauser]

Most factory rifles have a length of pull that can work for most people.
As mentioned, it's usually on the shorter side of 'average'.

Having the LOP that feels comfortable to you is always better than dealing with the mass-market "one size fits most" LOP.



Personally...
I have long arms. Even though I'm under 6 feet, I have a wingspan of 6' 2" and prefer a length of pull between about 14" and 15".
There's a range in there, because different long guns have different grip angles, different stock geometry, and different sighting options.

With a straight-grip pump or lever action rifle or shotgun, for example, I prefer a LOP of as long as 15". But for a pistol-grip rifle or shotgun, my preferred LOP is usually closer to 14-1/4" or 14-1/2". Most of the difference in those (rough) examples is simply in the angle at which my wrist must be bent to grip the rifle.

The "nose against the charging handle" that I've had people tell me they got taught for the AR doesn't seem like a good idea to me when shooting a 12ga!

Yep. Bad advice ... even for AR-15s, in my opinion.
One of my uncles learned that lesson the hard way, when he went 'nose against the charging handle' with my .458 SOCOM.
Bloody boogers should never need to be cleaned off an AR...

[FITASC]

Most of the difference in those (rough) examples is simply in the angle at which my wrist must be bent to grip

And also one of the reasons you see 5'8" English gents shooting straight stocked SxS guns with LOPs in the 15"+ range - that straight grip allows for that longer LOP.

[osbornk]

I think your gun is pretty typical. My last new rifle has a 13.65"and my new Mossberg 500 has 13.875". The longest on the Mossberg site I saw was was 14.25". I think they have them relatively short to fit the majority of people and they know people can lengthen it with different recoil pads. I'm relatively short with relatively short arms so I am generally pretty pleased.

[PlatinumCore16]

Thought I'd post an update: ended up grabbing a slip on pad from WalMart. Initially I had tried the new stance someone had suggested earlier (Nathan, thank you!) and it certainly did help and definitely gave me a different feel for shooting, but it still wasn't quite comfortable. A $20 pad from wally world and holy cow, what a world of difference. Aside from the nice lessening in recoil due to the super soft gel, the LoP was really nice. I returned the slip-on pad merely because after 2 shots, the pad would become cockeyed and would necessitate me readjusting it. I'll definitely be getting some spacers and a softer pad in the near future. About an inch should do it.

Thank you again everyone for the input.

[Hanshi]

Most rifles have an LOP much too long for me; often I can't even get a good view through the scope. Being only 5'4" I can still make do with some of what comes out of the factories. My Win 30/30 is perfect. I have a few custom flintlock longrifles with LOPs ranging from 13" to 12-1/2"; the 12.5" is wonderful. Remember, when one hunts heavier clothing is normally worn causing the LOP to lengthen.

[zeke]

Open sights can be more forgiving of lop. Am 5'8", and scoped rifle lop preferred is 12.5 inchs. Can easily adjust up to 13.5-14 in on open sights.

While positioning the rifle in crook of arm and seeing where your trigger finger bends over to trigger pull is imprecise, it certainly gets you into the ball park. And quickly as in being in store looking at rifles.

[PlatinumCore16]

Slight update/request for further info:

Ordered a light/mount for my 320 to finish it off. Also got a shell caddy because I really didn't like the elastic stock shell caddy. It moves everywhere and precludes the use of a sling. Not that I have one on it for HD duty, but if I was to use it in competition, I'd like the sling stud to be usable. Which I will hopefully be doing sometime in the future, but that's a ways out.

Request for further info was on stock spacer/butt pad: any ideas what would fit without going with a trim to fit? ATI makes a stock for it that's reasonably priced, but I kind of like the "field grade" stock. After my slip-on pad testing I do know that I'd like at LEAST a 1" increase to LoP. Anyone have any experience with lengthening the 320?

[FrankenMauser]

Ordered a light/mount for my 320 to finish it off. Also got a shell caddy because I really didn't like the elastic stock shell caddy. It moves everywhere and precludes the use of a sling. Not that I have one on it for HD duty, but if I was to use it in competition, I'd like the sling stud to be usable. Which I will hopefully be doing sometime in the future, but that's a ways out.

Simple (double) cheesy fix:
Cut a hole for the sling swivel stud.
Keeps the cheap carrier in place, and allows use of the sling.


The only butt-cuff style ammunition carrier that I own lives on my .444 Marlin H&R Handi-Rifle. It fit poorly, slipped all over, and blocked the sling swivel stud. About three seconds with a razor blade fixed everything.

[Danoobie]

Curve your index finger like it's contacting a trigger.
Measure the inside of that finger to your inside crook of
your elbow. compare that with the measurement from the
rifle trigger to the end of the stock. These two should be
very close to the same for a rifle to shoot well for you.

I have to agree with the guys who were pointing out most
rifles have too short of a LOP.

[PlatinumCore16]

Franken, I did think of that, but usually when you cut elastic it then tends to fray. Besides, I have practiced reloading from the butt cuff and I wasn't a huge fan. I "practiced" reloading from a "side saddle" and it felt quite a bit more natural. I'm sure with more practice it wouldn't matter, but if the side saddle works better, might as well just use it.

Danoobie, I already know how much length I would like to add. I am just looking for anyone who has experience with the 320 specifically and what size pads/spacers might work with the stock. Last my research told me it was close to a 1300, but usually aftermarket parts needed a bit of "help" to fit.

[FITASC]

Take the measurements of the pad on there now, paying close attention to the measurements for the screw holes. For an additional 1", you most likely will need a spacer to go with the pad. Look online at the various makers - Kick-Eez, Pachmayr, etc. and see how close you can get. A gunsmith can grind to fit for less than $30 typically for his time.