Speed and Precision (By Rob Pincus) - Page 2

Finger · October 16, 2007, 03:23 PM

Rob Pincus · October 16, 2007, 04:12 PM

Hard ball,

That was the point of the analogy.... these are "possible" extremes. I find it very hard to believe that our industry has preached the 21 foot "rule" for so long in the face of observable data to the contrary an that it is still refenced as a source for training standards.

Erik,

I agree with your observations.

Finger,

"slow is smooth, smooth can become fast" is a great way to get the fundamentals down, but I find that you have to push that envelop to failure to really see what your students are capable of (and for them to learn their limits) otherwise, you end up training the gifted ones to a lower standard.

Finger · October 16, 2007, 04:26 PM

True Rob,

But, many trainers push too soon I think. Once the fundelmentals are mastered, then should the games begin. Man on man steel and realistic simunitions/airsoft force on force senairios are some of my favorite along with Pact timer drills.

S/F
Finger

Rob Pincus · October 16, 2007, 05:20 PM

I'm probably one of them

.

We take novices into the 360 degree live fire/reactive target/ carzy lighting ranges after 1 magazine.

I teach my instructor students with this as the premise:

What would you teach a loved one if you only had 30 seconds to prepare them to use a loaded gun and then the bad guy was bursting through the door??
(save all the "hide/runaway" fantasies... it's my hypothetical situation, so the point is obvisouly shootin skills)

The Combat Focus Shooting answer is Extend-Touch-Press... in, and parallell with, the line of sight. Consistent string of fire until the threat stops.

CFS teaching mechanical target shooting (sight alignment, refined stance, etc.,etc.) as the advanced skill. We teach survival/defensive shooting skills for typical situations first. I find this is a much better way to produce an end product that is "as efficient as possible." I've had to wasted far too much valuable training time having to undue damage done in the way of Erik's #1 example: shooters trained to depend on mechanical skills and things like specific body/foot positions that have a hard time speeding up in realistic training environments.

wuluf · October 16, 2007, 07:10 PM

i know it works 'cause i saw it on Personal Defense TV! Rob, that was awesome, and you turned novices in to semi-proficient shooters in next to no time, way faster than i would have thought possible!

Finger · October 16, 2007, 07:10 PM

OK We are not all that different I have student pivoting and moving/fighting to cover on day one also. I don't teach any specific shooting stance. I see no need for it. they shouldn't be in it long anyway. Their butt should be moving. Presenting the students with multiple threats drives this all home.

The only students I have to teach differently are my PSD guys. They are high paid bullet stops to a point. Just the nature of the job.

Good thread,

S/F
Finger

Rob Pincus · October 16, 2007, 07:15 PM

Finger,

I find that most people who are really thinking about the observed realities and working the problems come to very similar conclusions, regardless or backgrounds and terminolgy. Have you had a chance to check out the new experimental Podcast?

Thanks for the feedback, Wuluf. Those shows were fun and exposed a lot of people to what we are doing at Valhalla and with the Combat Focus Program.

Finger · October 16, 2007, 07:24 PM

No Rob, I haven't. Oh and hte link didn't work for me.

I have heard nothing but good about your facility. I am ending my career now pretty much. Just had major back surgery. Too many years of falling out of airplanes, carrying a ruck and getting beat up around the world. Forty-two years to be exact since I started carrying a gun.

Hope you guys don't mind me jumping in there every now and then and giving my opinion.

S/F
Finger

Rob Pincus · October 16, 2007, 07:48 PM

Try this:

http://www.switchpod.com/users/robpincus/feed.xml

Meanwhile, don't let the "staff" title fool you... 95+% of my posts were from 1998-2003, I barely get time to check in anymore!

Thanks for the feedback... maybe you'll be up for a visit after retirement (which is sounds like you're due for!)

-RJP

Hard Ball · October 18, 2007, 10:42 AM

Rob

You say " I find it very hard to believe that our industry has preached the 21 foot "rule" for so long in the face of observable data to the contrary an that it is still refenced as a source for training standards:"

The Teueller drill is the result of large numbers of tests. What data do you have that invalidates it?

Rob Pincus · October 18, 2007, 02:25 PM

Hard ball,

Understand that the point of TD is to prove a "possibility" .. it s too often preached as an "absolute". There is a huge behavioral difference between the two aproaches. No one could refute that someone could close the distance, the point is that it is not an absolute that no one can respond to someone successfully from that distance. Countless knife attacks from that range and closer are thwarted every year.
Hopefully, my point is no so obvious as to have revealed a misunderstanding. If not, let me know.

RJP

mordis · October 19, 2007, 02:38 PM

Rob i am trying to view your pod cast, on the new link you provided and i still cant get it to work. I am interested in watching it. When it does load, i get some error saying some plug in is not right.

Rob Pincus · October 19, 2007, 04:19 PM

Mordis, I'm not sure why that would still be happening. I appreciate you trying to get it to work.

It is now up on iTunes, which is a universal platform option as well.

This link should take you to the hompage of the Podast, there is a "listen" button that should work for you if you don't have iTunes:
http://www.switchpod.com/p13003.html

-RJP

October 16, 2007, 03:23 PM	#26
Finger Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2007 Location: Pearsall TX Posts: 13	__________________ "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"

October 16, 2007, 04:12 PM	#27
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Hard ball, That was the point of the analogy.... these are "possible" extremes. I find it very hard to believe that our industry has preached the 21 foot "rule" for so long in the face of observable data to the contrary an that it is still refenced as a source for training standards. Erik, I agree with your observations. Finger, "slow is smooth, smooth can become fast" is a great way to get the fundamentals down, but I find that you have to push that envelop to failure to really see what your students are capable of (and for them to learn their limits) otherwise, you end up training the gifted ones to a lower standard. __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

October 16, 2007, 04:26 PM	#28
Finger Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2007 Location: Pearsall TX Posts: 13	True Rob, But, many trainers push too soon I think. Once the fundelmentals are mastered, then should the games begin. Man on man steel and realistic simunitions/airsoft force on force senairios are some of my favorite along with Pact timer drills. S/F Finger __________________ "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"

October 16, 2007, 05:20 PM	#29
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I'm probably one of them . We take novices into the 360 degree live fire/reactive target/ carzy lighting ranges after 1 magazine. I teach my instructor students with this as the premise: What would you teach a loved one if you only had 30 seconds to prepare them to use a loaded gun and then the bad guy was bursting through the door?? (save all the "hide/runaway" fantasies... it's my hypothetical situation, so the point is obvisouly shootin skills) The Combat Focus Shooting answer is Extend-Touch-Press... in, and parallell with, the line of sight. Consistent string of fire until the threat stops. CFS teaching mechanical target shooting (sight alignment, refined stance, etc.,etc.) as the advanced skill. We teach survival/defensive shooting skills for typical situations first. I find this is a much better way to produce an end product that is "as efficient as possible." I've had to wasted far too much valuable training time having to undue damage done in the way of Erik's #1 example: shooters trained to depend on mechanical skills and things like specific body/foot positions that have a hard time speeding up in realistic training environments. __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

October 16, 2007, 07:10 PM	#30
wuluf Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2006 Location: River City CA Posts: 228	And.. i know it works 'cause i saw it on Personal Defense TV! Rob, that was awesome, and you turned novices in to semi-proficient shooters in next to no time, way faster than i would have thought possible!

October 16, 2007, 07:15 PM	#32
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Finger, I find that most people who are really thinking about the observed realities and working the problems come to very similar conclusions, regardless or backgrounds and terminolgy. Have you had a chance to check out the new experimental Podcast? Thanks for the feedback, Wuluf. Those shows were fun and exposed a lot of people to what we are doing at Valhalla and with the Combat Focus Program. __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

October 16, 2007, 07:24 PM	#33
Finger Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2007 Location: Pearsall TX Posts: 13	No Rob, I haven't. Oh and hte link didn't work for me. I have heard nothing but good about your facility. I am ending my career now pretty much. Just had major back surgery. Too many years of falling out of airplanes, carrying a ruck and getting beat up around the world. Forty-two years to be exact since I started carrying a gun. Hope you guys don't mind me jumping in there every now and then and giving my opinion. S/F Finger __________________ "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"

October 16, 2007, 07:48 PM	#34
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Try this: http://www.switchpod.com/users/robpincus/feed.xml Meanwhile, don't let the "staff" title fool you... 95+% of my posts were from 1998-2003, I barely get time to check in anymore! Thanks for the feedback... maybe you'll be up for a visit after retirement (which is sounds like you're due for!) -RJP __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

October 18, 2007, 10:42 AM	#35
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	Rob You say " I find it very hard to believe that our industry has preached the 21 foot "rule" for so long in the face of observable data to the contrary an that it is still refenced as a source for training standards:" The Teueller drill is the result of large numbers of tests. What data do you have that invalidates it? __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

October 18, 2007, 02:25 PM	#36
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Hard ball, Understand that the point of TD is to prove a "possibility" .. it s too often preached as an "absolute". There is a huge behavioral difference between the two aproaches. No one could refute that someone could close the distance, the point is that it is not an absolute that no one can respond to someone successfully from that distance. Countless knife attacks from that range and closer are thwarted every year. Hopefully, my point is no so obvious as to have revealed a misunderstanding. If not, let me know. RJP __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

October 19, 2007, 02:38 PM	#37
mordis Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2005 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 560	Rob i am trying to view your pod cast, on the new link you provided and i still cant get it to work. I am interested in watching it. When it does load, i get some error saying some plug in is not right.

October 19, 2007, 04:19 PM	#38
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Mordis, I'm not sure why that would still be happening. I appreciate you trying to get it to work. It is now up on iTunes, which is a universal platform option as well. This link should take you to the hompage of the Podast, there is a "listen" button that should work for you if you don't have iTunes: http://www.switchpod.com/p13003.html -RJP __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus