Question for Lee Pro Auto disk users

BombthePeasants · January 26, 2011, 05:46 PM

Do you guys get powder occasionally escaping from the mechanism? After my 2 sessions so far w/ my LCT setup, I find a few flakes here and there of gunpowder. I assume that it might be normal?

2nd question: When you want to "work up" loads, and you use the LPAD, do you guys just use the disk cavities that fall w/in the safe range of the loads in your manuals? or do you need to buy the double disk kit, and/or the adjustable charge bar? For example:

You have Bullet A you're using in Caliber B, with powder C. On your manual, powder C states loads ranging from 3gr to 5gr (example only, I'm at work and don't have any manuals nor the disk cavity chart handy). of that range of loads, you only have 2 disk cavities that fall w/in that range (.53 and .57 for example). Do you guys just make 10 test rounds using the higher cavity amount, and test them?

I ask, because I'm wanting to move to a different powder, and a wonderful member of this board has donated a small amount of 4 different powders, and I'm now at a loss at how to proceed.

**Unclenick** · January 26, 2011, 05:55 PM

A scale is the best way to proceed. If you don't have one, start with the smaller cavity and check performance before moving to the larger one.

WANT A LCR 22LR · January 26, 2011, 05:58 PM

I use the adjustable charge bar, however the CC measurements really don't align with the chart so I end up filling 10 and dumping them in the scale and making relative changes from there.

With the charge bar make sure the lowest volume is fully under the powder supply. Mine was not and gave erratic volumes till I ground the die casting so the black steel lever would pull the bar farther back.

Some powder will escape, part of the deal.

rdmallory · January 26, 2011, 06:46 PM

I don't use the cc marking other than reference points.

I pick a charge weight and adjust the disc until I can get as close to that weight as I can without going over. For smaller pistol loads I use the adjustable charge bar on the disk loader.The charge bar in under $10.

Doug

NWPilgrim · January 26, 2011, 08:31 PM

I get a very few grains around the press, but no more than my RCBS Uniflow. My Perfect PM leaks a lot, but not the LPAD.

The original theory/practice Richard Lee designed the Auto Disk measures was that of the dippers. You don't choose a powder and then find the perfect amount for a cartridge. You choose the approximate volume, say 0.5cc and then find the best powder that works in that volume that is still within min-max weight range. Lee's intention is NOT to push the load envelop, to always use a cavity that produces a weight BELOW the max.

What I do is I've calculated my own volume-weight-ratios for all of my pistol and .223 powders. Then I look up load manuals for the planned weight range (say 4.2 - 5.5 gr) of one of my favorite powders for that cartridge (W231, AA5, Universal, Unique or W296 for handguns). That usually gives me about three cavities to try out, sometimes only two. I may run the numbers for another powder if the first choice doesn't give me much range.

Then I setup my turret press and LPAD measure with the smallest calculated cavity and do some actual weight measurements. I repeat for the other cavities and adjust my V-W-R accordingly for this session. I decide on 2-3 cavities to try out (all under max weight). I shoot them at the range if if none of them give me good results then I try another powder.

It isn't that much different from an adjustable measure and once I get a load figured out then it is super easy and quick to set up for that disk cavity time after time. This is what I love about the LPAD, simple and exact repeatability.

The auto disk and dippers are not intended for fine tuning by tenth grain increments. I have tried the adjustable bar and double cavities but found that they are not consistent with very small charges (shape of cavity has too sharp of corners). I prefer the simplicity and repeatability of the single disk measure.

GP100man · January 26, 2011, 09:17 PM

My ADs I took the spring off & then the hopper & filed a bit off the frame to get a titer fit , file a little check alot !

I also filed a bevel on the back side of the drop hole to eliminate the ledge that holds a bit of powder with the larger discs.

I bevel the edges under the little baffle a bit to help consistentsy, then treat everything with powdered graphite & treat the discs with a #2 pencil in the cavitys .

I use the sheet as a guide but the final decision is made with a scale .

Jim243 · January 27, 2011, 12:12 AM

I use the charge bar exclusively for pistol loading.

Jim

**Unclenick** · January 27, 2011, 10:26 AM

If you look at Accurate's web sight, they not only supply VMD's, but they supply a tolerance. The Ramshot site has bulk density only, but you can convert). The tolerance turns out to be as high as +/-5.5% for some of their powders. Other brands will have a tolerance to their bulk densities to. So, you can't even expect the same charge for a given volume from one lot of powder to the next. That's why I don't know any way to avoid owning a scale to check a measure against, unless you only intend to shoot loads well below maximum.

MW surveyor · January 27, 2011, 10:45 AM

Just started using the auto disk. Found that for Bullseye, the volumes are very close to posted. Using HP38/W231 the charge is about 0.1 grain less than indicated on the table.

Bullseye, not much leakage. HP38/W231 a bit more stray grains. I'll have to live with it I guess.

Gerry · January 27, 2011, 11:13 AM

I've been given 4 pounds of Unique that I decided to use up now that I'm out of W231. I know Unique doesn't meter well, but according to Lee's table, the .57 hole should give me around 5.2 grains. I'm up to using the .66 hole and it consistently only throws 4.8 grains instead of the 6 grains advertised! Yikes, is my scale suddenly broken? Could it be off by that much?

I'm aiming for between 4.9 and 5.2 grains, 230gr LRN with OAL of 1.262 which will hopefully make the hunk of lead exit the barrel and cycle my 1911.

Oops, I forgot to mention I'm loading .45 ACP

**Unclenick** · January 27, 2011, 11:41 AM

I'm going to have to take back what I said earlier about the Lee tables being conservative (already edited to remove it from my last post). I based it mainly on looking at Accurate pistol powders #2-#9, but if I put in all the VMD's that are listed both by Western and the Lee chart for Accurate and Ramshot powders, I see that which one errs on the conservative side is randomly scattered. It comes out as follows:

Code:

Powder		Western VMD	Lee VMD		More Conservative
Nitro100	0.1270 cc/gr	0.1349 cc/gr	Accurate
2015		0.0730 cc/gr	0.0730 cc/gr	Lee
2495		0.0710 cc/gr	0.0748 cc/gr	Accurate
3100		0.0700 cc/gr	0.0748 cc/gr	Accurate
4064		0.0710 cc/gr	0.0755 cc/gr	Accurate
4350		0.0700 cc/gr	0.0740 cc/gr	Accurate
MAG-PRO		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0663 cc/gr	Accurate
5744		0.0700 cc/gr	0.0752 cc/gr	Accurate
#2		0.1020 cc/gr	0.0838 cc/gr	Lee
#5		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0623 cc/gr	Lee
#7		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0653 cc/gr	Lee
#9		0.0680 cc/gr	0.0657 cc/gr	Lee
1680		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0655 cc/gr	Lee
2200		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0694 cc/gr	Accurate
2230		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0657 cc/gr	Lee
2460		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0656 cc/gr	Lee
2520		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0683 cc/gr	Accurate
2700		0.0660 cc/gr	0.0685 cc/gr	Accurate
Solo 1000	0.1260 cc/gr	0.1331 cc/gr	Accurate
Solo 1250	0.1260 cc/gr	0.1220 cc/gr	Lee
Enforcer	0.0689 cc/gr	0.0693 cc/gr	Accurate
Silhouette	0.0810 cc/gr	0.0796 cc/gr	Lee
True Blue	0.0693 cc/gr	0.0684 cc/gr	Lee
Big Game	0.0682 cc/gr	0.0708 cc/gr	Accurate
Magnum		0.0685 cc/gr	0.0661 cc/gr	Lee
Tac		0.0658 cc/gr	0.0671 cc/gr	Accurate
Zip		0.0831 cc/gr	0.0816 cc/gr	Lee
X-Terminator	0.0658 cc/gr	0.0681 cc/gr	Accurate

I also see from my own notes that I measured Trail Boss as having a VMD of 0.2025 cc/gr, while Lee has it as 0.2172 cc/gr. So, again, Lee's number will err on the higher side.

At any rate, my point about the variation from lot-to-lot remains correct. You really still do yourself a disservice if you don't have a scale to check you measure's output against.

NWPilgrim · January 27, 2011, 11:59 AM

That's why I use the Lee chart as a rough estimate and develop my own tables for my small selection of powders for each session and canister. I imagine local humidity plays some role in density variations, as well as lot to lot variation.

Once I have a powder measured for density it is simple to double check before each session and set up for loading. Usually the normal cavity used previously remains within a couple of tenths of a grain, but on rare occasions I have had to go up or down a size to stay within my preferred weight range.

farmall · January 28, 2011, 01:30 PM

I have never found the Lee charts to be very accurate. What I do is to average 20 throws with a given powder / disc setup, then write the actual charge thrown on a peel and stick label affixed to that particular can of powder. Saves lot of setup time, and I don't see any significant changes when I do this, but I DO verify charge weight each time I change a disc.
Andy

BDS-THR · January 28, 2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

of that range of loads, you only have 2 disk cavities that fall w/in that range (.53 and .57 for example). Do you guys just make 10 test rounds using the higher cavity amount, and test them?

Yes. And +1 to verifying the powder charge with a scale.

I always cycle the Pro Auto Disk 3-4 times (I dump powder from case back in the hopper) to allow for settling of powder in the hopper. Then I weigh several powder charge to verify the weights.

You can usually find 1-2 disk charges that will work well for a particular bullet weight/powder combination. But for more accurate load development, I test load 10 rounds of each at hand weighed charges in 0.1 gr increment. I then select the powder charge that produced the smallest shot groups. If the charge is not what Auto Disk can provide, I have extra disks I modify to drop the exact charge I want.

The chart is not exact. In my experience, W231/HP38 comes closest to the chart with some of the drops being right on or some being 0.1 gr off.

gregjc9 · January 28, 2011, 03:23 PM

Yes, I would have a few flakes that some how made it past the polymer sweeper. Most of the powder found on the press was due to the inherent shaking of the PAD. It just happens ....

When I got mine, the first thing I did was creat an excel spreadsheet of each disk cavity and what the exact charge was that it dropped. I took several samples, took out the high and low, and that was my drop for that disk. I did this for each powder type. This way, when I changed powders, I knew exactly which disk I needed to drop what charge. And yes, I stayed within the charges dropped by the disk. But I was learning on the Lee Classic Turret. If I had kept it longer, I might have changed to the charge bar to give me a little more flexibility.

January 26, 2011, 05:46 PM	#1
BombthePeasants Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 351	Question for Lee Pro Auto disk users Do you guys get powder occasionally escaping from the mechanism? After my 2 sessions so far w/ my LCT setup, I find a few flakes here and there of gunpowder. I assume that it might be normal? 2nd question: When you want to "work up" loads, and you use the LPAD, do you guys just use the disk cavities that fall w/in the safe range of the loads in your manuals? or do you need to buy the double disk kit, and/or the adjustable charge bar? For example: You have Bullet A you're using in Caliber B, with powder C. On your manual, powder C states loads ranging from 3gr to 5gr (example only, I'm at work and don't have any manuals nor the disk cavity chart handy). of that range of loads, you only have 2 disk cavities that fall w/in that range (.53 and .57 for example). Do you guys just make 10 test rounds using the higher cavity amount, and test them? I ask, because I'm wanting to move to a different powder, and a wonderful member of this board has donated a small amount of 4 different powders, and I'm now at a loss at how to proceed.

January 26, 2011, 09:17 PM	#6
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	Autodisc Adjustments My ADs I took the spring off & then the hopper & filed a bit off the frame to get a titer fit , file a little check alot ! I also filed a bevel on the back side of the drop hole to eliminate the ledge that holds a bit of powder with the larger discs. I bevel the edges under the little baffle a bit to help consistentsy, then treat everything with powdered graphite & treat the discs with a #2 pencil in the cavitys . I use the sheet as a guide but the final decision is made with a scale . __________________ GP100man

January 27, 2011, 10:26 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	If you look at Accurate's web sight, they not only supply VMD's, but they supply a tolerance. The Ramshot site has bulk density only, but you can convert). The tolerance turns out to be as high as +/-5.5% for some of their powders. Other brands will have a tolerance to their bulk densities to. So, you can't even expect the same charge for a given volume from one lot of powder to the next. That's why I don't know any way to avoid owning a scale to check a measure against, unless you only intend to shoot loads well below maximum. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; January 27, 2011 at 11:45 AM. Reason: corrected error

January 27, 2011, 11:13 AM	#10
Gerry Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 382	I've been given 4 pounds of Unique that I decided to use up now that I'm out of W231. I know Unique doesn't meter well, but according to Lee's table, the .57 hole should give me around 5.2 grains. I'm up to using the .66 hole and it consistently only throws 4.8 grains instead of the 6 grains advertised! Yikes, is my scale suddenly broken? Could it be off by that much? I'm aiming for between 4.9 and 5.2 grains, 230gr LRN with OAL of 1.262 which will hopefully make the hunk of lead exit the barrel and cycle my 1911. Oops, I forgot to mention I'm loading .45 ACP Last edited by Gerry; January 27, 2011 at 11:43 AM.

January 27, 2011, 11:59 AM	#12
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	That's why I use the Lee chart as a rough estimate and develop my own tables for my small selection of powders for each session and canister. I imagine local humidity plays some role in density variations, as well as lot to lot variation. Once I have a powder measured for density it is simple to double check before each session and set up for loading. Usually the normal cavity used previously remains within a couple of tenths of a grain, but on rare occasions I have had to go up or down a size to stay within my preferred weight range. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

January 26, 2011, 05:55 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	A scale is the best way to proceed. If you don't have one, start with the smaller cavity and check performance before moving to the larger one. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 26, 2011, 05:58 PM	#3
WANT A LCR 22LR Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Posts: 389	I use the adjustable charge bar, however the CC measurements really don't align with the chart so I end up filling 10 and dumping them in the scale and making relative changes from there. With the charge bar make sure the lowest volume is fully under the powder supply. Mine was not and gave erratic volumes till I ground the die casting so the black steel lever would pull the bar farther back. Some powder will escape, part of the deal.

January 26, 2011, 06:46 PM	#4
rdmallory Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Deltona FL Posts: 953	I don't use the cc marking other than reference points. I pick a charge weight and adjust the disc until I can get as close to that weight as I can without going over. For smaller pistol loads I use the adjustable charge bar on the disk loader.The charge bar in under $10. Doug

January 26, 2011, 08:31 PM	#5
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	I get a very few grains around the press, but no more than my RCBS Uniflow. My Perfect PM leaks a lot, but not the LPAD. The original theory/practice Richard Lee designed the Auto Disk measures was that of the dippers. You don't choose a powder and then find the perfect amount for a cartridge. You choose the approximate volume, say 0.5cc and then find the best powder that works in that volume that is still within min-max weight range. Lee's intention is NOT to push the load envelop, to always use a cavity that produces a weight BELOW the max. What I do is I've calculated my own volume-weight-ratios for all of my pistol and .223 powders. Then I look up load manuals for the planned weight range (say 4.2 - 5.5 gr) of one of my favorite powders for that cartridge (W231, AA5, Universal, Unique or W296 for handguns). That usually gives me about three cavities to try out, sometimes only two. I may run the numbers for another powder if the first choice doesn't give me much range. Then I setup my turret press and LPAD measure with the smallest calculated cavity and do some actual weight measurements. I repeat for the other cavities and adjust my V-W-R accordingly for this session. I decide on 2-3 cavities to try out (all under max weight). I shoot them at the range if if none of them give me good results then I try another powder. It isn't that much different from an adjustable measure and once I get a load figured out then it is super easy and quick to set up for that disk cavity time after time. This is what I love about the LPAD, simple and exact repeatability. The auto disk and dippers are not intended for fine tuning by tenth grain increments. I have tried the adjustable bar and double cavities but found that they are not consistent with very small charges (shape of cavity has too sharp of corners). I prefer the simplicity and repeatability of the single disk measure. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

January 27, 2011, 12:12 AM	#7
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	I use the charge bar exclusively for pistol loading. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

January 27, 2011, 10:45 AM	#9
MW surveyor Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 212	Just started using the auto disk. Found that for Bullseye, the volumes are very close to posted. Using HP38/W231 the charge is about 0.1 grain less than indicated on the table. Bullseye, not much leakage. HP38/W231 a bit more stray grains. I'll have to live with it I guess.

January 28, 2011, 01:30 PM	#13
farmall Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Beatrice Nebraska Posts: 613	I have never found the Lee charts to be very accurate. What I do is to average 20 throws with a given powder / disc setup, then write the actual charge thrown on a peel and stick label affixed to that particular can of powder. Saves lot of setup time, and I don't see any significant changes when I do this, but I DO verify charge weight each time I change a disc. Andy

January 28, 2011, 03:23 PM	#15
gregjc9 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2008 Location: Northern Va Posts: 501	Yes, I would have a few flakes that some how made it past the polymer sweeper. Most of the powder found on the press was due to the inherent shaking of the PAD. It just happens .... When I got mine, the first thing I did was creat an excel spreadsheet of each disk cavity and what the exact charge was that it dropped. I took several samples, took out the high and low, and that was my drop for that disk. I did this for each powder type. This way, when I changed powders, I knew exactly which disk I needed to drop what charge. And yes, I stayed within the charges dropped by the disk. But I was learning on the Lee Classic Turret. If I had kept it longer, I might have changed to the charge bar to give me a little more flexibility. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Greg