So I kind of suck at shooting pistols

[Rothdel]

I own a lot of pistols. Over time I have shot a lot of pistols. I kind of suck at shooting pistols. This seems to be an anomaly to admit on a shooting forum.

I'm not a competitor or handgun hunter. I like pistols for the history, mechanical operation, fun of shooting, and the potential (hopefully never) need for defense. In all of those settings I'm proficient enough. Think man sized target at 7-10 yards 100% of the time.

When I say I suck what I mean is shooting a .25 inch group at 50 yards which seems to be common place in most gun forums or on YouTube. I can't double tap resulting in one hole and 100 yard targets with a pistol....... maybe if it was a barn.

So here is the question...... in an area with out easy access to top shelf training with out considerable travel how best to gain skill to achieve the above feats? I recognize practice is important but I also recognize practice does not make perfect..... perfect practice makes perfect. I know I have learned some bad habits over the years that affect my accuracy at the range.

So YouTube? Books? Training systems? what do you all recommend so I can hit the wings off a fly at 100 yards off hand with iron sights out of a 2 inch barrel. (pretty sure someone has claimed something similar at some time so it must be a thing )

Ok sarcasm intended with that last statement but I am serious what resources do you all recommend?

[MarkCO]

I am going to make a suggestion, and qualify it first. Competition shooters are on the edge of the refinement of the shooting sports. Much of what comp shooters develop goes back to LE/Mil, and more slowly, to the general public and the defensive shooting aspect. So, taking a high level pistol course from a competition shooter will get your pistol handling and shooting skills to a higher level much faster than taking a CCW or Tactical pistol course. But with any of it, you then have to put in the work to maintain those skills. I honestly prefer a coach/mentor aspect as opposed to canned, 10 student classes.

So, here is a book, written by Charlie Perez. Charlie is a friend and I met him through a GTO event. He took a basic class from me, then shot some competitions, then quickly made GM and has placed top 16 at USPSA nationals. At one point, I went and took a class from him. I did put some time into edits of his book to make it broader, that is to help it be applicable to Tactical, CCW, 3Gun, etc. as those are disciplines I shoot, and Charlie is USPSA only. It is a detailing of the best practices and methods to be a better shooter.

https://bigpandaperformance.com/stor...cal-shooting-1

[JohnKSa]

When I say I suck what I mean is shooting a .25 inch group at 50 yards which seems to be common place in most gun forums or on YouTube.

I realize that this is hyperbole, but I'll reply anyway.

0.25" at 50 yards is is about 0.5MOA (1/2 MOA).

5MOA offhand (groups 10x larger than you are talking about), without being pressed for time is really good shooting with a pistol. If you can shoot 5MOA, slowfire, on command, offhand, with a pistol, you should be able to really impress the vast majority of pistol shooters out there. We're talking about 1.3" groups at 25 yards, 2.6" groups at 50 yards.

If you can shoot 25MOA with a pistol (6.6" at 25 yards--50x larger than what you are talking about) under some time constraints but while standing still, then you are a very good practical pistol shot.

If you can shoot 60 MOA (more than 100x larger groups than you are talking about--about 6.3" at 10 yards) while moving and on the clock then you are doing just fine.

[Nathan]

I think you can train yourself a lot of skills by watching quality YouTube videos and building a practice routine from such. The next step is likely to get competitive yourself. That is to compete.

A class sounds great, but what do you expect? Training classes are mostly limited to growth in a couple areas where the instructor helps you specifically and the self training that comes from the drills. Those are drills you can learn and practice on your own.

The key is setting up practice…you need to commit 50-100 rounds, an hour or so of time and your full focus on a single deficiency.

So basically, what held you back last event, practice, etc. Let’s say you are shooting low left. Ok. The fundamentals are sight alignment, grip, stance and trigger squeeze. Well, let’s say grip feels off.

Watch some videos on grip by respected professionals. Find the drills that support this.

Then shoot something complex like a favorite stage to warm up. Then really figure out a good grip and do some dry fire…tweaking until that grows solid. Then add some ammo and build some speed. Add a drill that starts easy, but grows with increased speed and/or accuracy requirements. Now go back to that complex drill and shoot it…Are you better? If not, why? What is the next weakness?

Anyways, I find constructive practice to be the best growth mechanism. Think about it….Does Jerry Miculek take training from a better shooter?….and no, I’m not Jerry…just remember, the 2 biggest proponents of class….instructors and people who have spent money on class.

Oh yea, and my 100yd double tap is only 1”!

[CDW4ME]

My general advice:
Aim small, miss small.
Put a 6 inch circle on a larger target at 7 yards, when you can keep your hits on the 6 inch circle shooting slowly then you are ready to increase speed, reduce the size of the circle or move the target to 10 yards.
Front sight should be in clear focus, target secondary.
Keep aiming till the bullet hits (philosophically) and jerking trigger or handgun is detrimental to accuracy.
Front sight.

[L. Boscoe]

join the Bullseye forum. More information there than you can imagine.
Lessons from High Masters and more.

[TunnelRat]

To add my thoughts, I would first echo John’s points. I have taken courses with around 500 other people at this point. These generally weren’t new shooters and all of them were people that spend a moderate amount of their time and money shooting for the specific purpose of getting better. The number of people I’ve seen personally that can shoot offhand some of the groups I see claimed online can fit on one hand. That’s not to say it can’t be done, obviously there are millions of shooters out there and some of those people, like Jerry Miculek mentioned above, are capable of feats I will never be able to duplicate. At the same time I see people that have spent years shooting struggle to maintain good groups at speed, so self depreciating humor aside I wouldn’t be too hard on yourself. Shooting handguns is not, in my opinion, easy.

I think a fair question though is what is your goal out of this? If your goal is to shoot 1/4” at 50 yd understand that in doing so you will need to get to a skill level that is beyond the vast majority of shooters. I know you were engaging in some good natured hyperbole, but honestly, the goal matters. When developing a skill you generally reach a point of diminishing returns. The people like Charlie Perez, mentioned above, compete at a level where they win and lose a competition by tenths of a second on a transition here or a reload there. Getting to that level isn’t impossible, but it’s frankly a long journey. Getting to a point of not sucking is understandable, but then what is considered sucking is going to vary on the person asked and their own goals. You mention as your purpose with firearms being owning and shooting firearms both from an enjoyment standpoint (enjoyment of history and mechanics) and developing a defensive ability. I’d argue neither of those goals require 1/4” at 50 yd with a pistol, or even a rifle.

Be honest with the level of time and money you’re willing to commit. If your goal is general improvement I would look up some good drills and engage in both dry fire and live fire. These are some drills hosted on a website from the late Todd Green, https://pistol-training.com/drills/. It’s not an exhaustive list but it’s a good start. Invest in a shot timer as a means to monitor your progress (there are phone apps you can try, I have seen them work with varying degrees of success). Have a variety of drills that emphasize certain skills and rotate through them. Don’t be afraid to work on the skills you find most difficult. Many shooters get good at one thing and then practice that a ton. An observation I have had in courses is many times an instructor asks what skills the students are focused on. Most people I see answer this give the skill they consider to be important, less so the skill with which they are deficient. Remember that diminishing returns is a reality and again determine where best to invest time and money.

Some comments above were made about the need or nature of training. I spent a few years shooting mostly with a buddy at my local range. I got to a point where I was likely one of the better pistol shots we had. At that point I started taking courses and being among a larger population showed me how far I had to go. I am better now than I was then, not just because I shot more but because frankly I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I do think a fair amount can be learned by duplication from say videos or reading materials, but having someone provide feedback to you personally who has the skill to see what you are doing wrong was invaluable for me.

A point was made that Jerry Miculek doesn’t take classes. There are many shades of grey between not sucking and being Jerry Miculek. People in all sorts of sports, shooting and otherwise, train and receive additional instruction, even people that are naturally gifted. Professions that involve shooting, military and law enforcement as an example, often involve coursework, and even at higher levels. Now as was said above maybe I’m just saying that because I personally have invested in classes so the confirmation bias in my case is too strong. That’s certainly possible, though the targets and the timers generally don’t care about my subjective opinion. By the same token I have met people that yearly spend thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars on firearms and ammunition, but won’t take a class as they don’t want the mental image they have of themselves to be tainted. Being humbled isn’t always enjoyable, but for me it’s generally when I have learned the most. Whether you end up competing or taking classes you will find people that are better and people that are worse than you. While being the best is great, it should be second to improving yourself (even if you are the best). Don’t be afraid of failure along the way.

I’d add that training courses and competitive shooting don’t have to be all or nothing. If you’re already investing a substantial amount of money in shooting, consider a competitive event or a course. If you don’t find it useful you don’t have to take another. The cost of one event or course relative to my expenditures in shooting from my time on this forum is honestly not that prohibitive.

Mark mentioned individual coaching versus group classes. Generally speaking I agree that one on one coaching is more beneficial to you as a shooter. However, most of the courses I have taken have been group courses and I have learned quite a bit in each. That said I was also someone who generally did well in a classroom setting, and I applied my same techniques of being a student in an academic classroom to shooting courses. That included asking questions relevant to the material, including demos of skills, and I taking notes for practice or reference later. If you take a group course you have to be your own advocate to an extent. You don’t want to be so question focused that you miss the material or take away from learning time for others, but I can honestly say in all the courses I’ve taken it is very rare to find an instructor that won’t answer a question. Chances are if you had a question someone else did too, and most instructors want to do a good job (good instructors generally want an involved class).

You’ll get lots of advice. Think it over, but remember at the end of the day it’s your time and money. You decide how best to use it. Take care.

[MarkCO]

A point was made that Jerry Miculek doesn’t take classes.

Not throwing any shade on Jerry, he is the man. But realize who some of his relatives are, and who he was shooting with at the beginning and it's not hard to realize that he was under the tutelage of Masters. Horner was the best all-around shooter in the US for maybe 5 or 6 years, but he has been passed by Tim Yackley in the last few. He is about 40 years junior to Jerry. Yeah, Jerry is amazing still.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

Not throwing any shade on Jerry, he is the man. But realize who some of his relatives are, and who he was shooting with at the beginning and it's not hard to realize that he was under the tutelage of Masters. Horner was the best all-around shooter in the US for maybe 5 or 6 years, but he has been passed by Tim Yackley in the last few. He is about 40 years junior to Jerry. Yeah, Jerry is amazing still.

I think this is a really important point. Per my understanding shooting schools as we know them today weren’t nearly as common a number of decades ago, at least not on the civilian side of life. People generally received instruction from a person and interacted with them at a place they both had access to. The manner and marketing of training has changed over time. There are positives and negatives to that.

I have had a lot of instructors at this point. While the great majority of them were not top of their divisions at USPSA Nationals, all of them had more skill than the rest of the class and were able to pass along important lessons. One thing I forgot to mention above is I have also learned quite a bit from the other students in the classes I attended, not just in technique but also in gear and gear layout. Just because instruction isn’t formalized doesn’t mean it isn’t instruction.

I think a difficulty is finding good instruction, and for newer and even experienced shooters that isn’t always easy to discern going in.

[Mike38]

When I say I suck what I mean is shooting a .25 inch group at 50 yards which seems to be common place in most gun forums or on YouTube.

Don't believe that for a minute. There isn't a handgun shooter alive, nor is there a handgun made that can shoot quarter inch groups at 50 yards. If someone tells you otherwise, you can call them a liar, and if you don't want to call someone a liar, send them my way and I'll call them a liar.

Man sized targets at 10 yards is a start, and we all were beginners at sometime.

My advice? Get into competitive shooting. Ask a ton of questions. Listen. Learn. It takes time and it takes training, not practice, but training. Best of luck to you.

[JohnKSa]

Not throwing any shade on Jerry, he is the man. But realize who some of his relatives are, and who he was shooting with at the beginning and it's not hard to realize that he was under the tutelage of Masters.

The other side of that coin is that he shot hundreds of thousands of rounds trying to get better. I think he's the one who said: "If you shoot a million rounds on your own dime getting good, you might be able to find someone to pay for your second million as a sponsor."

Every time he goes to the range, he's either training to improve his performance or he's trying something different to see if it works better than what he's been doing. He's admitted to trying different diets to see if they helped improve his speed. He's focused on improvement and performance and spends most, if not all of his time either shooting or thinking about shooting.

And he had a lot of natural talent.

[Rothdel]

Thanks for the feedback folks. A couple of clarifications.

I'm not necessarily looking for a specific result just to improve. I was a bit tongue in cheek on my initial post and recognize a lot of the posts on forums are boasting, but I also recognize I am self taught and realize I could improve.

Unfortunately I live in a rural area where classes are not close by and due to my job very difficult to get time off to travel for.

[GE-Minigun]

I think the number one thing people are missing is, shooting is a perishable skill. Yep, you can take all the classes you want, shoot/train with the best shooters in the world, learn everything they’ve acquired over their respected career, leave shooting as well as them, then go back to your “normal” shooting habit…couple times a month. Know what will happen, your accuracy/scores will drop. Years back I had a rotator cuff repaired and was out of shooting for 7 months, at the time I shot skeet every weekend, when I finally got back on the field my scores were horrible from where they were. Also shot in a bullseye style league, my scores before surgery were in the 290+ range, after…lucky to get in the 270’s.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Rothdel

Thanks for the feedback folks. A couple of clarifications.

I'm not necessarily looking for a specific result just to improve. I was a bit tongue in cheek on my initial post and recognize a lot of the posts on forums are boasting, but I also recognize I am self taught and realize I could improve.

Unfortunately I live in a rural area where classes are not close by and due to my job very difficult to get time off to travel for.

Then as mentioned you can look to what you can by yourself. Books, websites, and instructional videos will give you other drills you can try and tips to improve your technique. There’s a lot out there. Self taught doesn’t mean you can’t find other sources of material. I do think having a goal, even if a short term goal on a specific skill, helps the process and helps you maximize your time and money.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

The other side of that coin is that he shot hundreds of thousands of rounds trying to get better. I think he's the one who said: "If you shoot a million rounds on your own dime getting good, you might be able to find someone to pay for your second million as a sponsor."

Every time he goes to the range, he's either training to improve his performance or he's trying something different to see if it works better than what he's been doing. He's admitted to trying different diets to see if they helped improve his speed. He's focused on improvement and performance and spends most, if not all of his time either shooting or thinking about shooting.

And he had a lot of natural talent.

Yep. And I feel privileged to have learned several things from him. He is awesome at dissecting the whole into basic elements and taking bites that are manageable.

I am sure that some of my own personal success comes from spending time on the range squadded with the superstars of the sport. I'm a pretty good student, and I am not sure it works for everyone, but I find more value in working a match as an RO than taking an intro class. I did that with 3Gun, Sporting Clays, Precision Rifle, F-Class and a few others, then entered a major match and hit mid-pack out of the gate.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

I am sure that some of my own personal success comes from spending time on the range squadded with the superstars of the sport. I'm a pretty good student, and I am not sure it works for everyone, but I find more value in working a match as an RO than taking an intro class. I did that with 3Gun, Sporting Clays, Precision Rifle, F-Class and a few others, then entered a major match and hit mid-pack out of the gate.

I think that makes sense for someone that already has a strong shooting foundation. Even if you aren’t familiar with a specific discipline, your background helps you understand it and the examples you see as an RO illustrate the rules/methods firsthand and cover a variety of situations that would take a lot of time to cover in a classroom.

The reality though is not everyone has a particularly strong foundation in shooting, and personally while I don’t think a range officer has to be the best shooter I wouldn’t a novice being a RO. Introductory courses are often set up with the premise that the people going into them might not have a lot of experience shooting. That’s why you have courses of differing levels and you gear a course in part based on the expectations set forward in the course description.

[MarkCO]

Agree @TunnelRat, thus the "I am not sure it works for everyone." But once you have at least a mid level competency in an action shooting sport, the rest are faster learned, working matches or not.

[JohnKSa]

Unfortunately I live in a rural area where classes are not close by and due to my job very difficult to get time off to travel for.

Ok, if instruction is a problem, here is a sort of workaround. I'm not saying this will be as good, but it will be a help.

1. Measure your progress objectively. If you want to shoot smaller groups, then you need to be measuring your groups. If you want to shoot faster, you need to get a timer.

2. Assess your performance objectively. The biggest problem I have when teaching people is convincing them of the problems that they have. You can't afford the luxury of arguing with your instructor since you are your instructor. You're going to have to find ways to determine what you are doing wrong, whether it's flinching, trigger technique, sight alignment, unstable stance, poor grip, etc. There is a lot of information out there--keep in mind that not every technique works for every person so try the techniques and see how they work--based on the results you get. For example: Bob Vogel has a very effective grip technique that he demonstrates in videos. It does not work for me. I can take the proper grip on the gun, per the video, but the muzzle is pointing in a useless direction. Bringing it up on target is very difficult and causes a significant amount of pain in my forearms trying to get it lined up. Something in my anatomy doesn't match up right and I can't make his grip work for me. Another example: I know some pros advocate "slapping" the trigger, but with the guns I shoot, that just doesn't work. Slapping the trigger just knocks the gun off target.

3. Spend at least some time EVERY range trip practicing to get better. Shooting is fun, but if you want to get better, you're going to have to work to get better. You don't have to spend the entire trip working, but you will have to spend some of it working.

4. Spend time off the range working on the issues you discover. If you are moving the gun when you pull the trigger, that's something you can work on at home. If you aren't holding the gun steady, that's something to work on. Make your off-time range work more stressing to increase its utility. For example, I do my trigger technique practice using the gun that has the worst trigger that I own. You can practice holding a gun steady using extra weights on your wrists.

5. If you aren't improving and you're doing everything you know to do, bite the bullet and get an instructor, or a shooter that doesn't have that particular problem to watch you to see if they can figure out what you're doing wrong and give you tips on how to improve.

A place to start.

Most people are capable of lining up the sights on the target. They miss or their groups get large because they move the gun when they pull the trigger. Either because of poor trigger technique or because they are flinching. Most often it's flinching. People who flinch, often don't recognize they are flinching because they involuntarily blink just as they flinch so they don't see the gun move.

If you have a decent handgun and ammunition, can see the sights clearly and don't have some kind of an issue like a tremor, you should be able to shoot 1" groups at 10 yards. If your groups are considerably larger than that, you are almost certainly flinching.

[TunnelRat]

One way I have found to help catch flinching is to mix dummy ammunition or snap caps with live ammunition into a magazine while shooting. It’s a bit easier if someone else can load the magazine for you as you don’t have your memory to inform you, but if you try to place the dummy rounds randomly and then say jumble up the magazines afterwards you’ll generally surprise yourself with a click rather than a bang. I’ll also periodically do a few dry presses of a trigger while shooting, but I have found my brain/body is generally smart enough that it doesn’t try to control recoil when it knows there isn’t a live round. The other positive of the dummy ammunition is it allows you to practice clearing malfunctions.

[MarkCO]

^That works. But some movement, even on a click, is normal, even for high skill shooters at full speed.

.22LR mag dumps (10 rounds) as fast as possible is another method that works for many to cure flinch. Have to really be running splits under 0.20 for it to work well.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

^That works. But some movement, even on a click, is normal, even for high skill shooters at full speed.

Right. But in terms of the dramatic recoil flinch that plagues newer shooters it’s a good way to show it. I’ve had shooters at the range convinced that they weren’t flinching, until they could see it in the above.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Right. But in terms of the dramatic recoil flinch that plagues newer shooters it’s a good way to show it. I’ve had shooters at the range convinced that they weren’t flinching, until they could see it in the above.

Ditto.

[stuckinthe60s]

ya gotta WANT to be better, in order to BE better.
there has to be a REWARD for correct performance and a LOSS for poor performance.
you must set for yourself a standard.
think...
why do you want to shoot better?
what will it take to be better?
am i willing to do what it takes to be better?

then go do it.
whatever it takes.
talk is cheap. rounds down range are expensive.
spend what it takes and with time, itll start making sense.
and do it before you eyes go bad.

regards...VVV

[44 AMP]

Nobody is as good as the keyboard commandos say they are. Want to shoot the wings off a fly at 100yds with iron sights from a 2" revolver?

You do it the same way they guys who claim to have done it did it. You type it out, and hit the "enter" key. OR for the video guys, take a picture of the wingless fly and claim to have done it...

Personally, I'm not a big fan of watching Utube to learn things. Usually what I see is 25hrs of watching crap to find 20 minutes of worthwhile information, and most of the time, its information I already knew.

My personal shooting experience showed me that i had "plateaus" of skill. I would reach a certain point, and then no further, and pushing myself never seemed to change that. For me. Just relaxing and shooting, not worrying about anything but getting hits where I wanted and doing what I liked to do eventually led to me "reaching the next level" and being able to do it on a regular basis.

Until I was just past 30, it seems no matter what I tried I couldn't hit the proverbial bull in the butt shooting a revolver DA. So, I never tried it much. Just kept shooting SA and enjoying it.

Then, one day, just for "spits & giggles" I DA shot my steel plate (about 30yds) and hit. Second shot hit. So did 3 others. Next cylinder I was actually trying a bit more and ran 6x6.

This was slow fire, and it helped teach me the wisdom of the masters who say "make haste, slowly".

Practice matters, PROPER practice helps more than poor practice.

Forget internet claims of teeny tiny groups. Consider what YOU have and are using. 5 shots from a .45 in one ragged hole can be a 2.5" group.

you want a .25" group at 25yds? I might be able to do that. Rested from a bench, shooting a scoped bolt action XP-100 in .221Fireball. Or maybe using a scoped T/C Contender in .222REM or something like that.

Shooting that size group from any conventional service pistol class gun? Not happening in the real world.

If you're looking to train for competition, spending time and money on COMPETENT professional training might be the best way to go.

If you're just looking to get better, try picking one gun, one load and one type of shooting exercise that you enjoy and do that, over and over until you can do it flawlessly without having to "work" at it. Get to that point, and I think you'll see an improvement in everything else you try to do with a handgun.

and don't expect it to happen overnight. Like some other things, it can take years of practice to become an "overnight success". Some folks have a natural gift for some things. Others don't, but can learn with time and practice.

Just out of curiosity, what handguns do you have and enjoy? I've got pistols ranging from .22LR to .45-70. Each one is different, and some I have greater skill with than others, but I can shoot all of them to my satisfaction, and in the end, isn't that what really matters??

[FireForged]

oDecide what you want to do...

do you want to be an impressive shooting exhibitionist

or

do you want to be a competent fighter/defender


armed Fighting is one thing, gun games is something else. Being good at one doesnt necessarily mean that you are good at the other.

I have seen plenty of people who can shoot a jelly bean off a golf tee in the blink of an eye but when they get into force on force training, they get their rear end handed to them by people with a fraction of their "shooting" skill.