Craig's List

[rmocarsky]

Hello Gunners,

A life long friend of mine told me something today that I find troublesome.

I am a strong advocate of gun ownership and I love shooting and hunting.

But . . .

He called me up and told me of a fantastic buy he got off of Craig's List; a New England single shot 12 gauge shotgun.

He emailed the seller, they corresponded and he ended up going to the seller's house and buying the shotgun for $100.

My friend is a very stable person.

But . . .

. . . What if he WEREN'T?

Would the seller have cared? Or even been able to discern the problem?

Is it even legal to sell a shotgun on Craig's List?

I am NRA; been hunting for 40 odd years; and I cannot find comfort in this scenario.

Rmocarsky

[2500ak]

Craigslist has a policy against the sale of guns.

Most of states allow face-to-face transfer of guns.

Odds are your friend violated Craigslist company policy, but did nothing illegal. Unless there is a state law against it.

[MLeake]

Would you have felt better if your friend had bought the gun from somebody who had listed it on TFL?

How would the TFL seller know the buyer was stable?

Do you have problems with private sales at gun shows?

If not, then I'm not sure why you are worried about craigslist.

[shootniron]

I see no legal problem in what your friend, but the violation of Craigslist policy is not ethical...in my opinion. I suppose I am different in this regard, but I try to abide by everyone's rules with regards to things firearm so as not to damage the image of gun owners as a whole and me specifically.

[chack]

Seriously? What if someone bought a car from craigslist and used it in a bank robbery?
What if they bought a knife from kmart and stabbed someone with it?

There are people that advocate that private sales of guns (their private property) be against the law.

In some areas it is against the law.

Requiring sales go through a dealer is simply an infringement and inconvenience that is intended to curtail firearms ownership and the exercise of our constitutional rights.

If you ever have a question about a restriction on firearms, ask yourself how you'd feel about a similar restriction on books. If you are OK with a restriction on the private sale of books or written communication then preventing the sale of a single shot shotgun probably fits your worldview. If not, you should reconsider how dearly you hold the constitution and educate yourself about the amendments to it and why each one was adopted.

[Scorch]

but the violation Craigslist policy is not ethical...in my opinion

Hmmm. A company policy that prohibits a legal activity is ethical and disobeying such a policy while following the law is not? Same company allows people to advertise themselves as willing partners in drug use and other illegal activities. Strange world we live in . . .

But as others have remarked, your friend did nothing illegal.

[rmocarsky]

Gunners,

I guess the reason this plagues me so, is that in my neighborhood there is a 20ish young man who is in and out of mental hospitals and jail over the last few years and I would dread the thought of him getting hold of a firearm.

But I guess it is wrong to let a few rotten apples spoil the barrel.

Life is not guaranteed safe.

Rmocarsky

[Dr. Strangelove]

Craigslist only sees these types of posts if someone reports them, they don't actively hunt down firearms posts. It's not illegal to sell a gun on Craigslist, just against their policy.

I've bought and sold guns in face to face trades from/to complete strangers. It happens every day, if you aren't comfortable with it, don't buy from private individuals.

[csmsss]

It isn't the buyer who violated Craigslist policy in this instance, so I can't see how you can criticize him for anything, except the possible foolishness of going to a complete stranger's home by himself. Craigslist has been used by criminals luring buyers to ambushes where they wind up getting robbed, so I for one would be quite careful about going to a complete stranger's crib with cash in hand. Far better to meet in a public place, and better still to take a friend or two.

[shootniron]

Hmmm. A company policy that prohibits a legal activity is ethical and disobeying such a policy while following the law is not? Same company allows people to advertise themselves as willing partners in drug use and other illegal activities. Strange world we live in . . .

Yeah, I also find it strange that so many people are unethical by not obeying posted rules and pass it off as their right to be that way because others have no qualm about what they do. This says a lot about our society and the denigration of it. And to think, we wonder why our politicians will not do the right thing when elected.

This equipment belongs to CRAIGSLIST...they have the right to say how it is used.

[Silver Bullet]

Far better to meet in a public place

That could get interesting when buying a firearm. "I'll meet you at, ..., umm, how about the parking lot at the bank ?"

[American Made]

Here is the rub = If I had my way there would be no background checks..

Having a drivers licence is a privilege that mat be revoked. Firearm ownership is one of our fundamental rights. These rights are unalienable.

Could you picture Thomas Jefferson standing at your local FFL dealer waiting for governmental approval? And what was the main purpose of the 2nd amendment? How far we've come.

First it was felons, then it was misdemeanors. And just a couple of years ago, it became service vets that may have visited some head doctor. If I shot someone, I believe I'd talked to the doctor myself. Will we start looking at credit history too?

There are crazy people in this world..period. If it wasn't the gun, it'll be the steak knife

[Savage32-20]

I've never had much luck listing things for sale on craigslist (cars, boats, computer equipment) so I don't frequent that site unless I'm looking to purchase something.

There are two parts to this -
1. I wouldn't buy a gun from a stranger without it going through a gun shop. At least then I have a record of the transaction (with serial number) in case the gun is ever found to have been used in a crime. Same with selling a gun. I would prefer to go through a gun shop, even if on a consignment basis.


2. I wouldn't meet at the persons house, nor would I allow them to mine. While I like to believe that most people are honest human beings there are many factors at play that can affect the situation. With the economy the way it is some have turned to crime (of many types) to make extra money. I don't need this would be gun owner knowing what is in my house (tv's dvd players ect.) and then coming back to rob me later with friends. Specially since now they are equipped with a new gun to bring. Meeting at their house is out of the question because of scams in the past (mentioned above) where people were lured into ambushes. Sometimes for as little as $25-$50 bucks.


In defense of Craigslist - Many of the posts promoting illegal activities are against the TOU of the site. Craigslist does monitor some of the site but because of it's size it is almost impossible for them to monitor everything (especially with all the new slang out there for things and creative ways to get around filters). That is why you can report posts that violate the TOU or the law. Craigslist is a private system, much the same as TFL. If TFL were to say "no posting of gun sales" then it would be our choice to either try and violate that rule or to accept it and do our sales someplace else. But being A private system it is their choice what they allow/disallow.

Other sites that do not allow gun sales(exceptions for bb guns and things like that): Ebay.com, Amazon.com, yardsellr.com, oodle.com and many more.

[Uncle Buck]

Seriously? What if someone bought a car from craigslist and used it in a bank robbery?

Or bought a car from Craigslist and tried to blow it up in New York City's' Time Square?


How would you recommend everyone get their used firearms? If the government mandated everyone goes through an FFL, you could add a little more money to the price of every gun you buy (Or subtract the cost from your selling price).

[Don P]

As long as private sales remain legal the possibility remains that some loon can purchase a gun. All we can hope for is that the seller has scruples and and is not just out to dump the gun off.
Thats why a bill of sale is a must so if anything goes awry LE has info to go on.

[Spats McGee]

There was an ad on Craigslist, and your friend spotted it and bought the gun. I don't see that as any different than checking the classifieds here at TFL or in the local newspaper (except that it's against CL's policy, of course).

[Savage32-20]

How would you recommend everyone get their used firearms? If the government mandated everyone goes through an FFL, you could add a little more money to the price of every gun you buy (Or subtract the cost from your selling price).

I'm by no means implying that there should be a law saying that it has to happen this way. So please don't take it this way from any of my posts. It is just my personal preference (for my own peace of mind) that I go through a reputable FFL.

It's a case of different strokes for different folks and it's just the way i'm more comfortable.

*Just want to nip it in the bud before someone reads my post and says i'm saying that guns need to be regulated*

[Patriot86]

This is a comfort level thing for me, but I would probably never buy a firearm from someone totally unknown to me outside of an organized event like a gun show. If they came recommended by a friend or were at a gun show that is a horse of a different color. Same goes for electronics or anything else a potential criminal might be looking to "offload" quickly on a site like craigs list.

[oneounceload]

Far better to meet in a public place
That could get interesting when buying a firearm. "I'll meet you at, ..., umm, how about the parking lot at the bank ?"

That works, as does outside the Playland at McDonald's, or in the ever-camera-watched wally world parking lot

I guess I must be older than most here - guns were bought and sold through ads in the paper and done FTF at your house or wherever with no issue as to what someone might do with it later.

If it gives the creeps, use and FFL and pay more - in most states, it is not necessary

[Savage32-20]

or in the ever-camera-watched wally world parking lot

*Ok a little off topic but informational*

You'd be surprised to know that MOST of those cameras on Wally world exterior are fake. Wal-mart has had many lawsuits brought against them because there was little to no security once you walked out the front door. (notice the new presence over the past 3 years of private security in the parking lots) Their general feeling is that while you were in the store you were their customer but outside you were not. Usually only stores that have had talks of "union formation" have real cameras outside. There is actually a Camera package designed specifically for this that a store manager can order from corporate if there are talks of forming a union (he is also required to notify corporate about it).

The inside of the store however you can be assure that every single camera is not only real but monitored and recorded in real time. So you never have to be worried about getting mugged in the frozen food isle.


- used to work at Walmart security dept then found out some of their practices were not to my liking -


If your Walmart store carries firearms - You can buy the gun, ammo, and all of the accessories you would like. You can then take all of them (accept for the gun) and walk out the front doors of the store. The gun has to be carried to the front door by a manager and assistant. Once outside however they will hand it to you and go back inside.

[Tom Servo]

A company policy that prohibits a legal activity is ethical and disobeying such a policy while following the law is not?

Actually, I would consider violating or circumventing a company's policy to be dishonest. That would make me worry about the integrity of the seller.

The sale itself is legal, but I'd be concerned with honesty.

[44 AMP]

As long as private sales remain legal the possibility remains that some loon can purchase a gun.

As long as firearms sales remain legal the possibility remains that some loon can purchase a gun.

As long as firearms sales exist (legal or illegal) the possibility remains that some loon can purchase a gun.

All these statements are true.

The simple fact being overlooked is that a "loon" (meaning someone who would be a danger to themself or others with a gun) can buy one legally despite the most intensive background checks possible, IF they have never been introuble with the system. And in many cases, even if they have, so long as it was below an "action level". OR they can buy it from a private party (where legal) OR they can buy it illegally.

Other than the use of electronic media (Craigslist) how is the sale of the shot gun any different than putting an ad in the want ads, and selling to whomever showed up with the cash? Something that is done daily, large numbers of times all over the US?

If you aren't comfortable selling a gun to a stranger, then don't.

[alongston]

Though I haven't used CL to sell a or buy a gun I have used it to sell quite a few things. I never have the buyer meet me at my house or share any of my personal info. It's crazy enough meeting a perfect stranger off the internet. Doing so in a parking lot mid-day is a much safer way of handling the exchange, so to speak.

[Hardcase]

Around here, private sales are quite common. Most folks selling through ads ask for a CWP or at least a driver's license. I've purchased from private parties many times. Almost every time the guy that I met and I ended up having a nice long conversation about guns and the stuff that we do.

And as far as purchasing through a dealer, bear in mind that the law is reactive - it doesn't anticipate that the purchaser is going to do something illegal. It only comes into play after something has been done. That loon down the street won't be denied a firearm until he's done something that the government notices that renders him ineligible.

[TheDeej]

I sell stuff all the time on Craigslist. I have bought guns through craigslist. We usually do that kind of transaction at a busy gas station, but I'm in the south, its not uncommon to see more than one openly carried firearm is any store you go into. I have no problem meeting someone at THEIR house, but they ain't comming to mine. And i always gotta a ccw & a back up buddy, usually in the car. I call his cell before I go in so he can hear the whole transaction from the car. Got in a tight spot once, the guy threatened to just take the car stereo I was going to sell him. I never drew my gun, I didn't have to. As soon as my buddy heard him say "ill just take it", he was in the house holding the guy down. He wasn't so tough with two of us. It also turned out this was a lady we both know well's grandson.

In Denver, when I lived there a little less that ten years ago, it differnt. We met people at who evers house. I rented a room at my apartment through cl. Heck, my next door neighbour would score marijuana off of random people just because knew the right words to look for. They also do that in the city I live now. Someone usually puts a "language explanation" in the local towns forum page, once you learn the safe words, you can get nearly anything you want from my understanding. Is it legal? No. It is an everyday occurance to find someone blatantly breaking the set rules or laws set by the community in which they are living in (be it digital or physical)? Yes. No one lifts a brow, because we are now programmed to acept the mantra "its not my problem".