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Old May 8, 2017, 08:58 PM   #1
TruthTellers
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Should I get a KSG or an SBS?

So I've asked some questions the past few weeks relating to Short Barrel Shotguns, but I think my epiphany has finally happened and it sounds like the KSG is just plain out the better choice.

A 14 inch pump gun is about 9 inch longer than a KSG and even a break action shotgun with a 12 inch barrel is still longer than the KSG.

I could even get a certain model KSG that has a reduced magazine tube, which means I could cut the barrel down and SBS and it would be an astonishing 21 inches OAL.

Somebody tell me the KSG is a total plastic POS and not worth considering or else I'm gonna stop bothering and just get that.
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Old May 8, 2017, 09:01 PM   #2
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I've seen and held one but not fired one. I was interested 2 years ago, but after reading many reviews online, decided against it, in part because of the price and with some of the early on issues, didn't want to buy "a new model car" (gun). For a similar price, you can buy a well proven shotgun (ok it may not have the same round capacity).

There are quite a few reviews online, I'd suggest you read those first and decide.
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Old May 8, 2017, 09:19 PM   #3
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if it was me i'd rather have the KSG, but this was when they first introduced them and like all keltec guns hard to get and overpriced.

eventually my lust waned much as it has for the RFB also.

My next kel-tec crush is the RDB but we'll see how it goes.


BTW never laid eyes on the KSG in a shop so can't offer any 1st hand exp.
I just wanted it!
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Old May 8, 2017, 09:29 PM   #4
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Hey TruthTellers, you may also want to take a look at the UTAS UTS-15, similar idea. Some reviews out there on it too.
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Old May 8, 2017, 09:44 PM   #5
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The ksg is pretty good, but if you feel comfortable with it, try going for a DP-12. Those are great!
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Old May 8, 2017, 10:21 PM   #6
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I have handled the KSG a few times and a friend has one. He says his shoots just fine and the ones I've handled felt and functioned fine. I would like to get one when I find a good deal, I can wait until then.
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Old May 8, 2017, 10:43 PM   #7
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Hey TruthTellers, you may also want to take a look at the UTAS UTS-15, similar idea. Some reviews out there on it too.
Absolutely not. I like that it can alternate between the tubes giving it a true 15 round capacity, but it looks like a chunky, unreliable piece.

I saw both Hickok and Nutnfancy's videos and I realized how slow Hickok was racking the pump and amazingly, he didn't have any issues. Nutn was racking the pump super fast and had all sorts of issues. Then, he slowed the speed of the pump down and the issues went away.

The UTAS is not a speed shotgun and if it can't be reliable with a fast pump, I have no interest.
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Old May 9, 2017, 07:26 AM   #8
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That's the key on either of those - reliability, ... and neither have been out long enough or really vetted hard enough under real-world field-use, like taking one to a "tactical" shotgun course where you'll fire, like, 1200 shells over two or three days. At least, not from the gun rag reviews I've seen.

That said, in up-close engagements, neither the KSG nor the UTS-15 will be as fast as a cut-down double barrel.

Last edited by agtman; May 9, 2017 at 06:46 PM.
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Old May 9, 2017, 10:17 AM   #9
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I'll throw another recommendation for the DP12. It is a double barrel, so you get 2 shots before pumping and the tubes hold a good amount, but doubled you get a rather large magazine as far as shotguns go. However it is HEAVY, like real heavy, which is nice to help with recoil, but it certainly does require a good bit of stamina to handle and shoot.

Also it's not cheap...
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Old May 9, 2017, 02:48 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by PlatinumCore16 View Post
I'll throw another recommendation for the DP12. It is a double barrel, so you get 2 shots before pumping and the tubes hold a good amount, but doubled you get a rather large magazine as far as shotguns go.

Personally, I don't like the DP12 due to that... name me another shotgun that you fire twice, pump, fire twice, pump. If you use a pump shotgun in a defensive role, I think that is bad choice to invest in.

In regards to SBS or KSG... I have a KSG. Due to state laws, I can't do short barreled anything. The KSG and Tavor (went with the shorter barrel, and had a muzzle brake pinned) I picked up is as close to short barreled firearm that I could get.

I got my KSG after Trump won the election. While it seemed like an odd time to buy it and a Tavor, I did it because it at least gave local dealers some income when they were stocking up inventory due to the chance the election went the other way.

I like my KSG. Very well made, and functions perfectly. I'm not too fond of saying it would be a defensive shotgun due to the magazine selector.

For NFA guns, if you plan on crossing state borders, big hassle. KSG would be my suggestion if that is a consideration. If I could do the tax stamp, it is a nice investment... but probably would opt for a suppressor if that was in that situation (not on topic, but being honest).
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Old May 9, 2017, 03:26 PM   #11
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For NFA guns, if you plan on crossing state borders, big hassle. KSG would be my suggestion if that is a consideration.
Actually, that is something that affects me. I currently live in a crappy state in the Northeast that doesn't allow any NFA anything either. I'm trying to find work in free country West of the Appalachians and when I do, I'm escaping ASAP.

Problem is, if things don't work out long term and I have to move back I can't take the NFA items with me.

I have a Kel Tec Sub2k carbine and it's been flawless since I bought it, so I don't subscribe to the idea that Kel Tec makes junk from piping and plastic.
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Old May 9, 2017, 03:59 PM   #12
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Screwball, I get what you're saying. It is definitely weird in that respect and you need to practice with it a lot to really get the hang of it.

Truth, I grew up in NY, so I know the feeling. Personally I would say that you will more than likely be able to "make it work" wherever you end up next, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. However if you are dead set on getting something that works in the not-so-free northeastern USA, don't worry about SBS or cutting something down to make an NFA firearm. I think it will be more about the training/practicing with whatever you end up with.
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Old May 9, 2017, 04:03 PM   #13
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I've a Kel Tec KSG. Make sure to get a new one. Really compact with a lot of capacity. Lot of after market goodies for it too. I do have a DP-12 which is larger and a wonder full shot gun.
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Old May 10, 2017, 08:48 PM   #14
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Ksg

Forget all those old reviews. The modern gen of both the ksg and uts15 are reliable, I have had both. They both embarrass standard pumps. Nothing is going to give you the ease of use, small package and amazing capacity these will. The ksg is tiny but really the uts15 is a superior design. I never did see the point to a sawed off pump or double with such limited capacity. The ksg and uts15 design give you the compact size with more capacity than you would ever need.
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Old May 10, 2017, 11:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Forget all those old reviews. The modern gen of both the ksg and uts15 are reliable, I have had both. They both embarrass standard pumps. Nothing is going to give you the ease of use, small package and amazing capacity these will. The ksg is tiny but really the uts15 is a superior design. I never did see the point to a sawed off pump or double with such limited capacity. The ksg and uts15 design give you the compact size with more capacity than you would ever need.
I don't care for the lack of capacity in double guns, but I can live with it given how robust they are.

The problem is that adage I read somewhere that "Cheap doubles are rarely good and good doubles are rarely cheap" and that's kind of where I start to see the weakness of a SBS coach gun. I wouldn't want to hack off the barrel of a gun that costs a little bit more than the tax stamp.

Quote:
The ksg is tiny but really the uts15 is a superior design.
I could hear your nose hit the screen after I read this line, Pinocchio.
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Old May 11, 2017, 04:35 AM   #16
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Turkish UTAS 15 has had issues. Generation 4.5s are supposed to be some what reliable. Maybe.
Thus why I have a KSG Gen 3.5 and DP-12. Pic attached of mine.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1a dp 12.jpg (23.1 KB, 50 views)

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Old May 11, 2017, 06:55 AM   #17
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I'm serious. The uts is easier to load, clear and operate. You have more control over the tubes and can see the shells in the tubes better. The ksg is smaller and simple but its a pain in the butt to load.
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Old May 11, 2017, 08:44 AM   #18
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The DP-12 is made in CT by CSMC. One thing I found with the Kel-Tec, it did NOT like the Aguila mini shells - jams, double feeds, dropping live ammo, etc. Can't tell you if that is endemic to the basic function, the extra short ammo or something else
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Old May 11, 2017, 09:40 AM   #19
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I have run the mini shells in mine without much issue. They aren't as smooth as normal shells and you have to be very positive on the pump but they should work ok
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Old May 11, 2017, 02:27 PM   #20
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Are you aware of injuries using the KSG ?

https://www.thegunwriter.com/19139/a...ec-ksg-injury/
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Old May 11, 2017, 04:27 PM   #21
peggysue
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Old news where the person was using a sub standard grip and not safety aware.. Same thing can happen with a snub nose or a derringer.
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Old May 11, 2017, 06:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
The problem is that adage I read somewhere that "Cheap doubles are rarely good and good doubles are rarely cheap" and that's kind of where I start to see the weakness of a SBS coach gun. I wouldn't want to hack off the barrel of a gun that costs a little bit more than the tax stamp.
No tax stamp needed ...

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Old May 11, 2017, 08:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Carne Frio View Post
Are you aware of injuries using the KSG ?



https://www.thegunwriter.com/19139/a...ec-ksg-injury/

Also, if you are going to dump the magazine, might want to watch out...

If that is something that a shooter must do, get a SMT Tactical choke adapter off eBay. Puts some distance ahead of the muzzle, and gets you Remington chokes.
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Old May 13, 2017, 12:31 PM   #24
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Antman but the shottie you pictured is more than a $700. KSG.
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Old May 14, 2017, 07:54 PM   #25
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I just bought a KSG a few weeks ago.

The working parts of the gun are heavy steel, with a good glass fiber bearing nylon based plastic used for the non-critical stock and forearm parts.
It's a good, solid feeling gun with none of the cheesy lightweight feel I expected or any soft, fragile feeling plastic.
I've done a 100% strip except for the magazine tubes and everything is well thought out and very well built from quality materials.

NOTE: I strongly recommend NOT attempting to disassemble the trigger unit.
Even for an experienced person this is a bear to get back together and I suspect that Kel-Tec use a special holding fixture to position and hold the parts during assembly.
There is video online showing disassembly, but note that there doesn't seem to be any on RE-assembly. There's a reason for that.
In any case, there's really no reason to disassemble the trigger unit since trigger pull is entirely suitable for this type of shotgun

As with many new guns it can benefit from a "fluff and buff" of a few key areas and some good grease on some parts to ease friction.
You can get the same effect from just using the gun.
With either the gun smooths up very well and becomes much easier to operate effectively.

As one person commented, don't look at the KSG as a switch-magazine shotgun, look at it like a 7 round pump gun with the worlds fastest reload.
Switching back and forth of the magazines isn't practical because unless you practice like a SEAL you're going to get some confusion between the mags and what's in the chamber and make a mistake.
Plus, if you need a shell from the other mag, you're going to have to dump the good round that's in the chamber, loosing it.
In short, shoot the one magazine until empty, then flip the switch to feed the other magazine.

For accessories, one very popular one is an extended switch to change from one magazine tube to the other.
I looked at those but because they stick out so far from the bottom of the receiver, I'd be worried that a bump could easily catch it and break it off.
Good accessories are the various hand stops like the excellent Magpul and the Magpul vertical front grip.
Unlike many other grips, the Magpul spreads the load over a wider area and lightens the stress on the lower plastic rail.
Kel-Tec states that they've upgraded the lower rail area to prevent breaking it off like happened with an early gun.
An excellent accessory is the Kel-Tec extra thick recoil pad. This reduces felt recoil much better then the standard pad that comes on the gun.

https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg

In looking at the KSG and the DP-12 it's apparent that the same people have a hand in both guns, even though they're made by two different companies.
The designs are both take-offs of the Ithaca Model 37 and both share at lease a couple of parts. The double magazine design is the same on both with very minor differences in some parts.
Reading the owner's manuals shows that some areas have exactly the same words in both manuals, indicating that they were written by the same people.
I'm not clear what the relationship is, but it's fairly obvious there is one.

The KSG is in use with apparently some prison Response Teams, is in use with a South Korean Special ops unit, and I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if you'd find the KSG in most American Special Ops armories.
No military or law enforcement unit is going to buy a junk gun, so the KSG has arrived as a quality shotgun.

People talk about "Gen 1, and Gen 2" KSG's but Kel-Tec says there are no Generations. They simply added corrections and upgrades to the production as they became available.
Whatever, the current KSG has solved all the early problems.

With that said, the major issue with the KSG, and all other bullpup pump shotguns is is operator induced stoppages: Short stroking.
Due to the very short length, the pump handle is so close to the body it's easy to short stroke it and cause a failure to feed.
The shell release into the receiver happens in the very last 1/4 inch of the pump handle's movement and it may feel like the handle is all the way to the rear when it's not, resulting in a failure to feed.
There is some slight resistance to overcome in order to pull the handle all the way back to feed the next round.

A lesser operator issue is failing to push the handle all the way forward.
The next shell in the magazine is staged to move to the feed position when the handle is pushed the last 1/4 inch forward.
What you see on the videos is people trying to run the gun just as fast as possible and causing short stroking or starting the handle back before it's pushed all the way forward to stage the next shell.
There is some resistance on both strokes in the last 1/4 inch of movement and until you get used to the feel, it's easy to mistake the resistance as full movement.

Many people recommend operating the gun as hard as you can pump it back and forth, but all that's needed is a firm pull all the way to the rear and all the way to the front.
If you do some slower practice before attempting to make it sound like a full-auto weapon you'll quickly get the feel and can speed up.
In most cases, firing a shotgun as fast as the videos attempt is seldom necessary and can cause operator induced failures.

In my opinion and admittedly short term experience, the KSG is a quality, reliable gun when operated correctly.
It uses quality materials, and an interesting design solution to the use of double magazine tubes and a bullpup design.

Last edited by Dfariswheel; May 14, 2017 at 08:12 PM.
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