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Old July 23, 2012, 05:31 PM   #26
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If it was me, I might try to put a SWC thru his gas mask. Wouldn't even consider it with a 380 pocket pistol.
Why not? Everybody gets lucky once in a while and if you're in a place where some nutjob is shooting, you luck has gone South. You might as well see if you can turn it around.
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Old July 23, 2012, 09:20 PM   #27
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Were I in a theater it would be with my wife and son. Now my son is a good sized 14 year old kid but still just a kid and my wife is a 14 year army vetran but still my number 1,2 &3 thoughts would be getting them out of harms way period. If I was trapped or cornered and all I had to fight with was a bag of popcorn to give my family a split second to make their escape you better believe I would do it. But to think that you are going to do more than buy them some time with your life against the much better armed opponent (AR, 12 ga. shotgun, and 2 semi auto pistols) who doesn't have to worry about hurting innocent bystanders is little more than wishful thinking.

Think about how many "What is the best defense arsenal I can have to protect myself" scenarios have come across these forums. I have seen reccomendations for the AR; excellent weapons in the proper hands, the venerable 12 ga. shotgun; always a comforting thing to have, and a good quality semi-auto handgun, hell this nutjob had them ALL.

I can't even imagine the situation to my satisfaction, a dark crowded theater, lots of noise (besides the gunfire), flickering lights from the movie, a lunatic shooting at everything that moved, and dozens of people suddenly realizing the no-win situaion and trying to gang rush the exits, its a miracle that more people werent killed. You simply can't "win" every scenario, imagine trying to practice shooting in such a situation for fun, now try to imagine it where if you miss or fail you die.

BTW my daughter lives 70 miles from Aurora CO and yes for a few minutes after I heard about it my blood froze until a quick text and reply allowed my heart to beat again.
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Old July 23, 2012, 09:56 PM   #28
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...Since we only fight with a pistol, to get back to the rifle that we shouldn't have laid down...then the pistol is merely a stand in for the rifle.

Whenever I hear this I always wonder in what part of the US are people always trying to fight their way back to a rifle?
I totally agree with Neal G.... Unless I am in my own home, my rifles and shotguns are completely unavailable to me ... whatever pistol I have is going to have to do the job.

For 99.99% of gun owners, this bit of wisdom "only fight with a pistol, to get back to the rifle" is generally worthless advise.
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Old July 23, 2012, 10:05 PM   #29
Lost Sheep
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Originally Posted by shaunpain
Oh, and not to mention the cacophony of screaming and getting kicked, punched and trampled by a herd of terrified people.
Right, not all the injuries were due to bullet wounds, I have heard reported.

Indeed, there may have been CCW's in the auditorium who exercised the "better part of valor" and decided to tactically retreat, protecting selves and family before making a tactically questionable engagement with a superior (equipped) force.

We may even yet find out that someone DID return fire (perhaps ineffectively) and has not come forward (for any reason you may speculate). We simply do not know. I expect that forensics technicians will be digging bullets out of the walls, people and clothing for weeks to come.

When I have carried, I have possessed fewer than 20 rounds, at most. Most often, 5 or 10 (SP101 with a speed loader, or second SP). My track record on target with hasty shots with the SP is not impressive at anything more than 10 yards and an aimed shot in a tear gas environment with confusion, low visibility and innocent bystanders running helter-skelter. No, discretion is the better part of valor.

My concealed carry is for the much more likely situation of a lone mugger/carjacker who will get my cash wallet LONG before one of my bullets.

Having said that, I will admit to taking my carry piece to a company picnic because of an unapprehended, armed kidnapper/carjacker in the area. When I saw the layout of the picnic area I left the piece in my car (no clear approaches to the area), but I did keep an eye on the perimeter.

You plan your tactics for the threat(s) most likely, then adapt as necessary.

Originally Posted by Neal_G.
I don't suit up for combat when I leave the house. I'm not changing my carry choice because one nutball inflicted a massacre on one day, in one movie theatre, in one town, within one state, of the 50 states that make up the US...
Sorry, Neal, it has happened more often than your post seems to suppose, and not all of them hit the news (especially not the ones that are successfully thwarted by CCW's or unarmed people who simply intervene with words or physically).

But I do agree with your sentiment
Originally Posted by Neal_G.
For the threats I see in my general location, which are mostly robbery, car-jacking, etc, my Glock 26 will work just fine. If I for some reason think I have to prepare to go to-to-toe with mass murderers or a team of them in a Mumbai style attack, I might as well just not go outside. Thats not exactly 'living'.
One prepares for the likely. When confronted with the unimagined, you assess and respond in the way that best ensures the accomplishment of your mission.... For most of us, that is to protect family and self.

There has been a lot of speculation about what would have been effective or successful to stop this massacre. The last I heard was that he wore body armor for his head, groin and legs as well as torso, which would have been disguised by his costume, the dark and the smoke/gas. I presume he might have used the exit door's curtains for concealment, also. Not the best recommendation for return fire. Speculation about what any of us WOULD have done is fed by a LOT of missing (assumed) information.

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Old July 23, 2012, 10:06 PM   #30
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I carry a full size Sig 1911. However, it isn't a good practice to change your weapons outfit because of one random incident. The odds of ever being in a firefight is low. The chances of engaging an armored active shooter is astronomically low. If it concerns you that much I would suggest practicing a double tap COM and then one to the head. Or even a "double-double". Practicing that is a better solution than lugging around a piece that isn't practical for you, because chances are if it's annoying you won't carry it as much, which is no good for anyone.
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Old July 23, 2012, 10:50 PM   #31
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Pistols/smistols, why in the world didn't at least one man rush the guy? A whole theater of cowards! Really! I thought American men had learned something on 911. I guess not. I'm ashamed.

In CHL and HD classes it is emphasized over and over that you must have the proper mindset or you shouldn't carry. You are coached over and over about the risks of entering an armed conflict - that you yourself could die, so think ahead about when you would make a choice to fight instead of retreat... That choice and mindset should not be attached to the pistol! If it is, quit carrying.

Many years ago my wife and I discussed our response to something like this. (Kids are raised and each of us can be self sufficient.) I would attack and she would help others. If there were no others to help then we would both attack. The more there are attacking then the better the odds of stopping the aggression. If several men my age had immediately rushed this guy, I can't imagine that he would not have been stopped quickly.

Am I mentally prepared to rush straight into a barrel? I think so. Once a neighbor child rode her training bike into the street when a car was coming. The driver was yacking and totally oblivious to the child. I knew I could make it to, grab, and shield the child, but not get out of the way. My feet were like lead; it took all my strength to make them move. Time just slowed. I got to the child, grabbed her to my chest with my back to the car, waited for what seemed like 10 or more seconds (but was more like 2), and then the car screeched just a very little as the lady swerved around us. I guess my motion caught her attention.

My point is that I didn't rush a car on instinct. My wife and I not only had our son but many foster kids and other kids we "helped". Some of the situations with the kids were not without risk. We had had more than one talked about just how far we were willing to go to protect someone "not our own". When the neighbor girl rolled in front of the car, my action wasn't something I had to think through - it was just acting on a decision already made.

Guys, especially single guys and empty nesters like me, I encourage you to think what you would do - and hopefully there will be some that will decide as my wife and I have decided.

Just my 2 cents,

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"There are some ideas so preposterous that only an intellectual will believe them." - Malcolm Muggeridge
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Old July 23, 2012, 10:53 PM   #32
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few people are willing to invest in the time and expense it takes to truly master their carry gun
That's it in a nut shell. It ain't the gun, its the shooter.

just the other day in the Ozarks in Misouri of all places, a man was escourted out of the theater for OCing a sidearm.
I rather be escourted out for having a CW then carried out on a stretcher for not having one.
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Old July 24, 2012, 12:16 AM   #33
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SerenityNetworks, we can all be internet heroes. You can say all you want about the people who ran for their lives from an extremely armed man being cowards. However, this just shows how foolish you are. You can talk a big game, but I promise you, even if you were to run faster than any man on Earth, a .556 is much faster. I feel ashamed to have people like you on this forum after you go calling innocent people(mostly children or teenagers) who are attacked without warning cowards. It is not like these people had time to form a plan of any type. They were ambushed with gas and bullets.

You must think if you had been there you would have saved the day. Do not worry fellows, SerenityNetworks is here to protect us from all the evil in the world. Now we can all sleep at night.
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Old July 24, 2012, 12:27 AM   #34
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If an angel came to me tonight and said "At some point in your life you will be in a situation where only a Desert Eagle 50 AE will save you," I would strap on my Glock tomorrow morning and go about my business as usual.
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Old July 24, 2012, 12:57 AM   #35
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A K or N frame size gun, or a service sized pistol would have been a lot easier to engage with, with a higher probability of a better outcome for all but the BG.
A friend of mine had two blowouts on the same day a couple of months back. I know it COULD happen to me, but I'm going to stick with just carrying one spare tire.

I've read about situations where people have been without power and utilities for weeks and I know it COULD happen here, but the 3-5 days of drinking water I usually have on hand is as far as I'm willing to go.

I've read about incidents like the Tyler Courthouse shooting (happened not many miles from here--I've actually been there a few times), the North Hollywood shootout, and now the Aurora Theater shooting that all involved bad guys with rifles and body armor. I know it COULD happen to me, but I'm still going to keep carrying an 8 shot 9mm and a spare magazine.

Now I do make sure my tires and my spare are in good condition, I make sure I rotate the water so it doesn't get too old and I maintain my carry gun and make sure I can use it properly, but there has to be a limit somewhere and I've found mine. I've already thought these things through and come up with the compromise between total preparedness and total unpreparedness that works for me.
The circumstances were a dark room full of chaos with a random shooter, you seem to be saying that a pocket sized 380 would stand as much chance as a full frame, easier to shoot pistol in this case?
Maybe not exactly the same chance, but I don't believe that the difference would have been sufficient to effect a different outcome. Going back to the spare tire analogy, if I have two blowouts, even the best spare tire on the market won't help, it's simply not sufficient for the task at hand. It's not that clearcut in this situation, but the lesson is the same. Sometimes what you have available isn't enough to solve the problem that confronts you.

Mark Wilson (shooting range owner who lived near the Tyler Courthouse) had a full-sized .45ACP pistol, engaged Arroyo (armored rifleman) in broad daylight without people running around to confuse him and with no tear gas in the air. Wilson scored a hit or two on Arroyo that had no effect and then Arroyo killed him. The North Hollywood bandits were engaged by multiple police officers shooting shotguns and full-sized pistols. They soaked up a lot of hits and kept on shooting.

It's not really a matter of what pistol you have, going up against an armored rifleman with a pistol is not a winning proposition.
Looks like his vest turned out to just be a "tactical" vest, and not body armor.
What's the source for this?

The Aurora Chief of Police stated clearly in the official press conference that the shooter was wearing torso body armor, neck protection, limb protection, groin protection and a ballistic helmet. I could see someone getting a standard ballistic vest confused with a tactical vest and reporting that incorrectly, but the rest of it doesn't play.
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
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Old July 24, 2012, 12:58 AM   #36
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Well, this one got ugly. We do not call murder victims cowards simply because they lack the training some of us have. Nor do we cast aspersions at each other.
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
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Old July 24, 2012, 01:01 AM   #37
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by SerenityNetworks
...why in the world didn't at least one man rush the guy? A whole theater of cowards! Really! I thought American men had learned something on 911. I guess not. I'm ashamed...
And I submit that it ill becomes you to so blithely hurl the appellation "cowards" at people who have endured the vicissitudes of an event like that in the Colorado theater. The tactical problem presented was a heavily armed gunman in body armor, in a large, dark, crowded room, with obscuring smoke and in the midst a bunch of panicking people. The average marginally trained (if that) private citizen, even with his usual concealed carry gun, is unlikely to be of any help.

Originally Posted by SerenityNetworks
...In CHL and HD classes it is emphasized over and over that you must have the proper mindset or you shouldn't carry...
Is that the extent of your training? If so, perhaps you should consider some further training that includes Force-on-Force or simulations before you pass judgment.
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
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