Savage 200 and 223/5.56 Ammunition

Bucksnort1 · February 22, 2024, 11:23 AM

I believe military 5.56 is loaded hotter than .223. Is it safe to shoot 5.56 in my Savage 200 chambered for 223?

bamaranger · February 23, 2024, 03:30 AM

We bat this around on a regular basis. Here's my stance on it. As a general rule, a firearm should only be fired with a cartridge matching the inscription on the barrel. If a rifle is marked .223, than a cartridge so marked is the correct ammo. Simple, right?

There are of course some exceptions, the .38/.357 come to mind. A lot of vintage cartridges had overlapping misleading names, like .30 WCF/.30-30 or .30 Gov't/30-06 Confusing the .223 issue is that firearms chambered in 5.56mm can safely shoot .223 cartridges. And a .223 marked rifle will shoot 5.56 ammo, though with higher than normal pressure and resultant stress. Not so simple now.

True 5.56mm ammo is loaded to slightly higher pressure levels than sporting .223, an online search will yield the numbers. So says Hornady anyhow. There is also a difference in the 5.56mm chamber. Whether or not that slighhtly higher pressure creates a dangerous combination in your rifle is up to speculation. A rifle in good shape can handle a bit of overpressure. A "proof" round is high pressure, but rifles are not fed a steady diet of proof rounds. I would think a steady diet of overpressure ammo would not be a good thing or contribute to accuracy or longevity.

A few years back, operating on the belief that the two cartridges were completely interchangeable, I fired some NATO marked 55 gr FMJ/5.56 through my YZ Mini Mauser, (.223) and chronographed the shots. I didn't keep notes, but what I recall is that the velocity of the 55gr/5.56 ammo in my treasured and dainty Mini Mauser was VERY high, like 200-300 fps faster than what I normally would see from that rifle . That did it for me, and I will not do it again.

ligonierbill · February 23, 2024, 08:17 AM

My experience is similar. Main bullet I load for both 16" AR and 24" Remington turn bolt is Sierra's 55 gr HPBT (#1390). Max load of TAC gives me 3,200 in the Remington, same as Sierra measured. That load in the AR yields 2,968. Shoots <1" in both guns by the way.

I don't shoot commercial 5.56 ammo in my Remington, but in the AR:
55 American Eagle 3,077
62 American Eagle 2,894
62 Winchester Valor 2,958

Note that the American Eagle is going 100 fps faster than a max bolt load, and although I don't have a direct comparison for 62 gr, the Winchester is a little hotter still.

taylorce1 · February 23, 2024, 12:34 PM

.223 Rem vs. 5.56X45: Facts vs. Fiction

If you're really want to shoot both stress free, take the rifle to a GS and have it reamed to a .223 Wylde chamber. It'll probably run less than $100, if your GS has the reamer. My first experience shooting 5.56 in a .223 chamber was with my H&R Handi rifle, all that happened to me was my cases wouldn't eject. Made it a PITA out shooting varmints, so I stopped buying cheap 5.56 FMJ to shoot.

stagpanther · February 23, 2024, 08:49 PM

^^^this^^^ It's not the cartridge that is inherently dangerous--it's the way the chamber/freebore/throat is cut that might create a dangerous overpressure situation (a very small "might" but can happen).

Shadow9mm · February 24, 2024, 08:14 PM

I would not do it personally.

People will argue over this one all day, but I will try and sum things up.

The cartridge dimensions are identical, the way the chamber is cut is different. in the 223 the rifling starts sooner and at a sharper angle which can increase pressures.

There is a 3000PSI diffference between the cartridges. The catch is that, different measurement protocol/methods/techniques were used as one is a commercial cartridge and one is a military cartridge. People will argue that the difference would be much smaller if they were measured the same.

Some people will argue that the safety issue is only with one particular tracer round that contacts the rifling sooner due to its ogive profile and all other 5.56 are safe to shoot in a 223.

My personal reason for not doing it comes from both my experience as a shooter and a reloader. As a shooter, with 5.56 chambered rifles and factory ammo, I can definitely tell a difference in recoil and ejection between 223 and 5.56 ammo. As a reloader Looking at the load data, 5.56 loads almost always use a little more powder that 223 loads.

radom · February 25, 2024, 01:54 AM

I am going with been shooting 5.56 in .223 and vice versa for over 45 years and no issue at all as most .223s are 5.56 chambers. Just don't shoot 5.56 in tight match chamber .223 guns due to the shorter lead in them and most bolt guns use the short lead in.

jmr40 · February 25, 2024, 09:02 AM

In theory 5.56 CAN be loaded a LITTLE hotter than 223. No manufacturer loads ammo right to the max pressure. I seriously doubt you'll ever find a factory loaded 5.56 round that exceeds 223 max pressure. If you hand load and push the envelope maybe.

Semi-auto and full auto rifles need the ammo to be loaded to within a relatively narrow range of pressures in order for the gun to cycle reliably. Too hot, or not hot enough and you may get unreliable function. Too hot and over time you could wear out parts prematurely.

So, a 5.56 round MIGHT cause some issues if fired in a semi-auto 223. To the best of my knowledge the only 223 semi-auto's were the very early Ruger Mini-14's. Every semi-auto made today, to my knowledge, is chambered for 5.56 which will handle either cartridge.

A bolt gun will handle either cartridge.

And FWIW, this issue isn't just with 223/5.56. EVERY semi auto rifle in any chambering needs ammo loaded to within specific pressure ranges in order to function.

The most well known is the WW-2 era Garand in 30-06. At the time 150 gr loads were commonly loaded to 2700-2800 fps. That is what the Garand is designed for. Modern sporting 30-06 ammo will push a 150 gr bullet to 2900-3100 fps and will cause all sorts of issues in a Garand. A bolt gun will easily handle the 3100 fps loads.

In the real world this is a much more serious issue than the 223/5.56 debate. 30-06 is loaded to 3 very different power levels and some of those are bolt action only loads. We really should have 3 different names for the 3 power levels. But we don't, people with semi-auto 30-06 rifles just have to know that certain loads don't work in their rifles and may in fact damage them.

thallub · February 25, 2024, 10:41 AM

in 1968 i obtained housands of 5.56mm ball rounds. Ran a .223 reamer into the chamber of my .222 Sako. Since 1968 i've fired tens of thousands of 5.56mm ball rounds in .223 chambers, NO PROBLEMS.. . Lucky Gunner on 5.56 mm ammo in 2.23 chambers
Luhttps://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

Jeremy2171 · February 25, 2024, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmr40

The most well known is the WW-2 era Garand in 30-06. At the time 150 gr loads were commonly loaded to 2700-2800 fps. That is what the Garand is designed for. Modern sporting 30-06 ammo will push a 150 gr bullet to 2900-3100 fps and will cause all sorts of issues in a Garand. A bolt gun will easily handle the 3100 fps loads.

Just no...please stop repeating internet myth... the garand was NOT designed for 150grn ammo. The ammo at the time was Ball, M1 174gr at 2700fps and/or AP 165gr at almost 2800fps.

The garand can handle "modern sporting ammo" (whatever that is) just fine with no issues.

Keep it greased properly and the oprod spring at least 19.5" and you won't have any worries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmr40

In the real world this is a much more serious issue than the 223/5.56 debate. 30-06 is loaded to 3 very different power levels and some of those are bolt action only loads. We really should have 3 different names for the 3 power levels. But we don't, people with semi-auto 30-06 rifles just have to know that certain loads don't work in their rifles and may in fact damage them.

Not really...its all SAAMI spec ammo (for the most part).

Jeremy2171 · February 25, 2024, 05:48 PM

225/556 same pressure levels...the issue is the .223 chamber "might" be tight on SOME 556 loads where the bullet ogive hits the leade/rifling.

Try your rifle and see if you get pressure signs in it....if not shoot away.

I've only had one .223 give me trouble in 40 years...and it was only with specific brand of 556.

So overall its not a real big deal. See if your rifle likes it and go from there.

stagpanther · February 26, 2024, 04:01 AM

I can't remember if it was here on TFL or a different forum--but I seem to recall some years ago that someone said they blew up their rifle with a 5.56 hand-load--I think he used either 2015 or 2520 powder and had a bullet set-back that caused a pressure spike IIRC. I use those powders a lot and thought to myself at the time, hmmm, better pay more attention.

Pumpkin · February 27, 2024, 01:46 PM

I bought a new 110E 40 years ago that at the beginning of its life had WW 55 gr 556 ammo shot through it almost exclusively. The price of that white box Winchester was quite satisfying and I will say that rifle never exhibited any signs of over pressure, I still have a couple of boxes and most of the brass. Nowadays I would be hesitant to use some of the heavy bullet 556 available because of possible throat dimensions but then again why would I. I believe it has a 1-12 twist anyway.

Ricklin · February 28, 2024, 10:56 AM

I am a sucker for steel and walnut. Visiting the orphanage I found an 80's Savage 110D. I have been looking for a varmint type rifle for a while. I had been looking at the speed demons, but then thought, hmm. nothing more available than .223 while not quite as fast, very efficient and available. So the 110D got adopted. Lucky me, it is an early Savage .223 and sports a 1-14 twist. Great for light bullets pushed quickly. I'd like to find a load approaching 4000 FPS with good accuracy. At least with the slow twist my bullets may not self disassemble when pushed fast. It has decent wood, I may cut the pressed checkering and refinish it, tho the rifle is already about 95% just a few safe dings.

Pumpkin · February 28, 2024, 11:29 AM

Ricklin,
I assume mine is probably a 1-14 also being the same vintage as yours, along with it being a 22” sporter. It shoots 40 gr Blitz (yes I still have 4 boxes) on up to WW 64gr Power Points. Several coyotes have been on the receiving end of those 64’s. Gun will outshoot my two pretty CZ’s.

Kinda like when Shelby and Ford put it on those sexy Ferrari’s at Le Mans.

February 23, 2024, 03:30 AM	#2
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,314	safe We bat this around on a regular basis. Here's my stance on it. As a general rule, a firearm should only be fired with a cartridge matching the inscription on the barrel. If a rifle is marked .223, than a cartridge so marked is the correct ammo. Simple, right? There are of course some exceptions, the .38/.357 come to mind. A lot of vintage cartridges had overlapping misleading names, like .30 WCF/.30-30 or .30 Gov't/30-06 Confusing the .223 issue is that firearms chambered in 5.56mm can safely shoot .223 cartridges. And a .223 marked rifle will shoot 5.56 ammo, though with higher than normal pressure and resultant stress. Not so simple now. True 5.56mm ammo is loaded to slightly higher pressure levels than sporting .223, an online search will yield the numbers. So says Hornady anyhow. There is also a difference in the 5.56mm chamber. Whether or not that slighhtly higher pressure creates a dangerous combination in your rifle is up to speculation. A rifle in good shape can handle a bit of overpressure. A "proof" round is high pressure, but rifles are not fed a steady diet of proof rounds. I would think a steady diet of overpressure ammo would not be a good thing or contribute to accuracy or longevity. A few years back, operating on the belief that the two cartridges were completely interchangeable, I fired some NATO marked 55 gr FMJ/5.56 through my YZ Mini Mauser, (.223) and chronographed the shots. I didn't keep notes, but what I recall is that the velocity of the 55gr/5.56 ammo in my treasured and dainty Mini Mauser was VERY high, like 200-300 fps faster than what I normally would see from that rifle . That did it for me, and I will not do it again.

February 23, 2024, 12:34 PM	#4
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	.223 Rem vs. 5.56X45: Facts vs. Fiction If you're really want to shoot both stress free, take the rifle to a GS and have it reamed to a .223 Wylde chamber. It'll probably run less than $100, if your GS has the reamer. My first experience shooting 5.56 in a .223 chamber was with my H&R Handi rifle, all that happened to me was my cases wouldn't eject. Made it a PITA out shooting varmints, so I stopped buying cheap 5.56 FMJ to shoot. __________________ NRA Life Member Last edited by taylorce1; February 25, 2024 at 12:13 PM.

February 23, 2024, 08:49 PM	#5
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,797	^^^this^^^ It's not the cartridge that is inherently dangerous--it's the way the chamber/freebore/throat is cut that might create a dangerous overpressure situation (a very small "might" but can happen). __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

February 24, 2024, 08:14 PM	#6
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,977	I would not do it personally. People will argue over this one all day, but I will try and sum things up. The cartridge dimensions are identical, the way the chamber is cut is different. in the 223 the rifling starts sooner and at a sharper angle which can increase pressures. There is a 3000PSI diffference between the cartridges. The catch is that, different measurement protocol/methods/techniques were used as one is a commercial cartridge and one is a military cartridge. People will argue that the difference would be much smaller if they were measured the same. Some people will argue that the safety issue is only with one particular tracer round that contacts the rifling sooner due to its ogive profile and all other 5.56 are safe to shoot in a 223. My personal reason for not doing it comes from both my experience as a shooter and a reloader. As a shooter, with 5.56 chambered rifles and factory ammo, I can definitely tell a difference in recoil and ejection between 223 and 5.56 ammo. As a reloader Looking at the load data, 5.56 loads almost always use a little more powder that 223 loads. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

February 25, 2024, 09:02 AM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,810	In theory 5.56 CAN be loaded a LITTLE hotter than 223. No manufacturer loads ammo right to the max pressure. I seriously doubt you'll ever find a factory loaded 5.56 round that exceeds 223 max pressure. If you hand load and push the envelope maybe. Semi-auto and full auto rifles need the ammo to be loaded to within a relatively narrow range of pressures in order for the gun to cycle reliably. Too hot, or not hot enough and you may get unreliable function. Too hot and over time you could wear out parts prematurely. So, a 5.56 round MIGHT cause some issues if fired in a semi-auto 223. To the best of my knowledge the only 223 semi-auto's were the very early Ruger Mini-14's. Every semi-auto made today, to my knowledge, is chambered for 5.56 which will handle either cartridge. A bolt gun will handle either cartridge. And FWIW, this issue isn't just with 223/5.56. EVERY semi auto rifle in any chambering needs ammo loaded to within specific pressure ranges in order to function. The most well known is the WW-2 era Garand in 30-06. At the time 150 gr loads were commonly loaded to 2700-2800 fps. That is what the Garand is designed for. Modern sporting 30-06 ammo will push a 150 gr bullet to 2900-3100 fps and will cause all sorts of issues in a Garand. A bolt gun will easily handle the 3100 fps loads. In the real world this is a much more serious issue than the 223/5.56 debate. 30-06 is loaded to 3 very different power levels and some of those are bolt action only loads. We really should have 3 different names for the 3 power levels. But we don't, people with semi-auto 30-06 rifles just have to know that certain loads don't work in their rifles and may in fact damage them. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

February 22, 2024, 11:23 AM	#1
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	Savage 200 and 223/5.56 Ammunition I believe military 5.56 is loaded hotter than .223. Is it safe to shoot 5.56 in my Savage 200 chambered for 223?

February 23, 2024, 08:17 AM	#3
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,458	My experience is similar. Main bullet I load for both 16" AR and 24" Remington turn bolt is Sierra's 55 gr HPBT (#1390). Max load of TAC gives me 3,200 in the Remington, same as Sierra measured. That load in the AR yields 2,968. Shoots <1" in both guns by the way. I don't shoot commercial 5.56 ammo in my Remington, but in the AR: 55 American Eagle 3,077 62 American Eagle 2,894 62 Winchester Valor 2,958 Note that the American Eagle is going 100 fps faster than a max bolt load, and although I don't have a direct comparison for 62 gr, the Winchester is a little hotter still.

February 25, 2024, 01:54 AM	#7
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,357	I am going with been shooting 5.56 in .223 and vice versa for over 45 years and no issue at all as most .223s are 5.56 chambers. Just don't shoot 5.56 in tight match chamber .223 guns due to the shorter lead in them and most bolt guns use the short lead in.

February 25, 2024, 10:41 AM	#9
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	in 1968 i obtained housands of 5.56mm ball rounds. Ran a .223 reamer into the chamber of my .222 Sako. Since 1968 i've fired tens of thousands of 5.56mm ball rounds in .223 chambers, NO PROBLEMS.. . Lucky Gunner on 5.56 mm ammo in 2.23 chambers Luhttps://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/ Last edited by thallub; February 25, 2024 at 10:51 AM.

February 25, 2024, 05:48 PM	#11
Jeremy2171 Member Join Date: May 2, 2010 Posts: 29	225/556 same pressure levels...the issue is the .223 chamber "might" be tight on SOME 556 loads where the bullet ogive hits the leade/rifling. Try your rifle and see if you get pressure signs in it....if not shoot away. I've only had one .223 give me trouble in 40 years...and it was only with specific brand of 556. So overall its not a real big deal. See if your rifle likes it and go from there.

February 26, 2024, 04:01 AM	#12
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,797	I can't remember if it was here on TFL or a different forum--but I seem to recall some years ago that someone said they blew up their rifle with a 5.56 hand-load--I think he used either 2015 or 2520 powder and had a bullet set-back that caused a pressure spike IIRC. I use those powders a lot and thought to myself at the time, hmmm, better pay more attention. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

February 27, 2024, 01:46 PM	#13
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 433	I bought a new 110E 40 years ago that at the beginning of its life had WW 55 gr 556 ammo shot through it almost exclusively. The price of that white box Winchester was quite satisfying and I will say that rifle never exhibited any signs of over pressure, I still have a couple of boxes and most of the brass. Nowadays I would be hesitant to use some of the heavy bullet 556 available because of possible throat dimensions but then again why would I. I believe it has a 1-12 twist anyway.

February 28, 2024, 10:56 AM	#14
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,016	Happy Camper I am a sucker for steel and walnut. Visiting the orphanage I found an 80's Savage 110D. I have been looking for a varmint type rifle for a while. I had been looking at the speed demons, but then thought, hmm. nothing more available than .223 while not quite as fast, very efficient and available. So the 110D got adopted. Lucky me, it is an early Savage .223 and sports a 1-14 twist. Great for light bullets pushed quickly. I'd like to find a load approaching 4000 FPS with good accuracy. At least with the slow twist my bullets may not self disassemble when pushed fast. It has decent wood, I may cut the pressed checkering and refinish it, tho the rifle is already about 95% just a few safe dings. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

February 28, 2024, 11:29 AM	#15
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 433	Ricklin, I assume mine is probably a 1-14 also being the same vintage as yours, along with it being a 22” sporter. It shoots 40 gr Blitz (yes I still have 4 boxes) on up to WW 64gr Power Points. Several coyotes have been on the receiving end of those 64’s. Gun will outshoot my two pretty CZ’s. Kinda like when Shelby and Ford put it on those sexy Ferrari’s at Le Mans.