Let’s talk load development

[tangolima]

Last time at South Bay, I did bring 20 rounds of 7mm SAUM. However I wasted 8 to get back on paper, as the optics was moved from other rifle. I'm going to do the same again next time. I will be doing the usual more less; 3"x4" stamp at 300yd, record each shot's poi, poa coordinates, MV, hit/miss.

MG, quit overthinking it and embrace the "new era". It helps if you neck turn of course

For flyers, my "policy" has evolved a few times along the years. I used to discard 2 shots out of 10 farthest from the group center. Now I try to call before I look at the camera. If poi matches my call, I may choose to discard that shot, or I will have to include that. There are other exclusion special cases. Cracked neck, bumped bullet, MV too low / high etc will be discarded.

-TL

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[Metal god]

Yeah I know you bring about 20rds of each load . What I’d like to see is you showing what those 20rds should do based on past statistical analysis . Then sit down , shoot and repeat those numbers with out any aids . If these statistical analysis are supposed to determine what is most likely to happen. I’d like to see that happen , maybe then I get it .


I can understand discarding a cracked neck or a bumped bullet whatever that means . However, I can’t see discarding any velocity changes , that to me would be a direct result of my reloading practices and are relevant to the group size . I feel those must be considered as part of the group because I as the reloader I am a huge part of where that bullet impacts . That would be like excluding all bullets with the concentricity off by .004 or more because the majority of the rounds are less than that so we should discard anything above .004 . If I loaded all the rounds the same , they all should be analyze the same . I don’t believe I should treat one different because the fired results were different than the rest. There’s absolutely a reason why that one came out different . If I can’t figure out exactly why and know it will never happen again. It must be included in my statistical analysis because it’s likely to happen again at some point .

Although , I heard if I neck turn all my problems would go away

[tangolima]

I meant abnormal MV deviations, due to, say bullet set back, inconsistent ignition etc, wherever that are not supposed to be there. I understand there is a line to be drawn. It is something that we will have to exercise discretion. Basically I don't want to drop any shot without a reason. Not liking it is not a good reason.

I'm currently monkeying with the mini 14. The groups have been pretty lousy. Sometimes it could have a shot 6” (4moa) to the right, with dead on elevation. I couldn't find anything to exclude it. Fortunately its effect is somehow averaged down by the other 9 shots fired.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

FWIW I had an absolute miserable day shooting on Friday . All my testing was at 300 yards. 10 shot groups each. These were new loads new components. For the new build. Best group I had was 4.3” with a mean of 1.48 . The wind was really hard to call . There was clearly mirage mostly moving right to left, but it would also get kind of swirly. The ribbons on the targets at 200 and 300 yards I was using barely moved. So I could not figure out what the wind was doing.

Those look pretty good to me--what exactly is the source of misery?

[tangolima]

50% group 0.9moa.
90% group 1.6moa.

Could be better, but not miserable at all. Vertical dispersion pretty good too. Without the wind, it will do much better.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

50% group 0.9moa.
90% group 1.6moa.

Could be better, but not miserable at all. Vertical dispersion pretty good too. Without the wind, it will do much better.

At 300 yards; I'd be happy with that. Might not win comps, but as a reliable performer--especially in the presence of some wind; yeah I'd feel confident shooting it.

[Metal god]

It’s disappointment I think along with a little frustration . I used to shoot much better than I’m shooting now which is the disappointing part.. The frustration part is that I put a lot of money into this new build and it’s not shooting well . Since I started shooting rifle again, I rarely see a subway group anymore. They used to be standard for me. I keep all my load development targets and I can show you target after target after target of sub moa 5 and 10 shot groups at 100 yards. In the last six months or so since I started shooting rifle again seriously I’ve shot maybe three or four sub moa groups out of maybe 40 or 50 attempts . There’s something not right and it’s almost certainly the nut behind the wheel.

I’m seriously considering pulling this new barrel and putting the old one back on and seeing if I can still shoot that one . It used to be no problem for me to find a good load. Especially using IMR 4064. Didn’t really matter what match bullet I used. It was going to shoot well.

Recently, I’ve tested six different bullets with three different powders and I’ve yet to find a consistent load with this new rifle .

[stagpanther]

It’s disappointment I think along with a little frustration . I used to shoot much better than I’m shooting now which is the disappointing part.. The frustration part is that I put a lot of money into this new build and it’s not shooting well . Since I started shooting rifle again, I rarely see a subway group anymore. They used to be standard for me. I keep all my load development targets and I can show you target after target after target of sub moa 5 and 10 shot groups at 100 yards. In the last six months or so since I started shooting rifle again seriously I’ve shot maybe three or four sub moa groups out of maybe 40 or 50 attempts . There’s something not right and it’s almost certainly the nut behind the wheel.

I’m seriously considering pulling this new barrel and putting the old one back on and seeing if I can still shoot that one . It used to be no problem for me to find a good load. Especially using IMR 4064. Didn’t really matter what match bullet I used. It was going to shoot well.

Recently, I’ve tested six different bullets with three different powders and I’ve yet to find a consistent load with this new rifle .

I know what you mean--it's kind of a " I suck, I'm not worthy" feeling--because when you get to the self-flagellation stage of "it's all my fault" it questions why even waste time and money continuing. Been there, many times. Still will go there in the future, I'm sure. I think the "ES CTC obsession" has a lot to do with it--and I have to admit it's an easy, quick way to "self-validate." My little 257 Weatherby project has taken me years to get to the point where I finally found a load that really hits the sweet spot, and I had abandoned it in the back of my safe as a failed project, as I do with others that I don't get good results with quickly. What made the difference? The bedding job I had done had left a small imperfection which resulted in an asymmetry between torquing of the action screws and the bedding around the action itself. That was not an easy or obvious thing to figure out for me.

The nice thing about your groups at 300 yards IMO is that they tell me the message "you're on the track" IMO--if you weren't, at that distance, the group would be a heck of a lot worse.

If you really think it's you and not something in the set-up of the rifle/ammo, next time you're out with tango borrow one of his neck-turned laser beams and see if it shoots better/worse for you than him.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Metal god

It’s disappointment I think along with a little frustration . I used to shoot much better than I’m shooting now which is the disappointing part.. The frustration part is that I put a lot of money into this new build and it’s not shooting well . Since I started shooting rifle again, I rarely see a subway group anymore. They used to be standard for me. I keep all my load development targets and I can show you target after target after target of sub moa 5 and 10 shot groups at 100 yards. In the last six months or so since I started shooting rifle again seriously I’ve shot maybe three or four sub moa groups out of maybe 40 or 50 attempts . There’s something not right and it’s almost certainly the nut behind the wheel.



I’m seriously considering pulling this new barrel and putting the old one back on and seeing if I can still shoot that one . It used to be no problem for me to find a good load. Especially using IMR 4064. Didn’t really matter what match bullet I used. It was going to shoot well.



Recently, I’ve tested six different bullets with three different powders and I’ve yet to find a consistent load with this new rifle .

MG, perhaps we have gotten older .

But seriously I have been doing the opposite. I used to stop at 50% group size of 1moa and feel pretty good about it. Only recently I could do better. Occasionally I approach 1moa 90% group at 150yd or even 300yd. That's after I started incorporating my home made barrel tuner and contour mapping the group size against MV and tuner settings.

I actually have shifted attention from small groups to able to hit designated target. At distance, reading the wind and correcting for it trumps small group alone. For that 1.5moa 90% group suffices.

No neck turning wasn't it. I'm just pulling your legs with it. I started doing it long ago. It is just no-down-side kinda deal. It doesn't do much without bushing die.

-TL

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[Metal god]

The bedding job I had done had left a small imperfection which resulted in an asymmetry between torquing of the action screws and the bedding around the action itself. That was not an easy or obvious thing to figure out for me.

I should check mine . I did bed the action but the stock has pillar bedding . I just filled in some minor areas around the front and rear action screws and the recoil lug . I checked my action screws when I was shooting last and they were still really tight. I didn’t check with my torque wrench. I just checked to see if they were tight and they were.

I actually have shifted attention from small groups to able to hit designated target. At distance, reading the wind and correcting for it trumps small group alone.

That’s been my plan but as you and I talked about . I’m still on the load development stage of this rifle . I have yet to find a load I’m comfortable with to start shooting at targets for fun . Then I put a new barrel on my other rifle twice now . Just installed another 18” 223 Wylde on that upper so once again I’ll be doing load development on another rifle

To top that off, I cleaned the bore on the new barrel and it was incredibly dirty like it had been shot 100 times and my brush felt super loose inside and my patches went through easier than they normally do with a 223 barrel . I’m already worried that I’m gonna be sending another barrel back . Different manufacturer this time at least .

[stagpanther]

I should check mine . I did bed the action but the stock has pillar bedding . I just filled in some minor areas around the front and rear action screws and the recoil lug . I checked my action screws when I was shooting last and they were still really tight. I didn’t check with my torque wrench. I just checked to see if they were tight and they were.

I've only found this particular problem on one of my bedding jobs one time; not suggesting it's a common one that you should check for--rather just an example. Another one that's clipped my accuracy before is how the recoil lug fits in the recoil slot in the stock; every once in a while an action I use might have a deeper/thicker lug than what the the slot in the stock can accommodate properly; preventing a stable joining of the action to the stock. An over-sized barrel nut can do the same thing.