40S&W not so popular? - Page 7

**JohnKSa** · November 24, 2016, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Just weighed some of my forties and nines.

VERY nice! It's great to have actual data to work with.

Interesting how close the slide/barrel weights are comparing 9mms to .40s in the same size pistols. Below are the comparisons for the guns in both lists that are the same except for caliber.

M&P40C/M&P9C--.40 is 0.1oz heavier.
G23/G19--.40 is 1.8oz heavier.
G22/G17--.40 is 1.3oz heavier.
P320 Full--.40 is 1.9oz heavier.
P320 Compact--.40 is 0.6oz heavier.

Quote:

From these figures, there is obviously more to making a pistol comfortably soft-shooting than just slide-mass.

Indeed. Makes me wish I could pick the brains of a really good gun designer.

DHart · November 24, 2016, 11:37 PM

John... good catch. The P320 Full size 9mm slide weighs 1# 1.3 oz. Chart has been corrected.

**JohnKSa** · November 24, 2016, 11:52 PM

Thanks! I've adjusted my post to reflect your information.

Sarge · November 25, 2016, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agtman

My notion of an ideal anti-personnel rig is a 10mm 180gn/XTP or HST type bullet at 1300fps from a pistol with substantial capacity (a 15+1 Glock 20), along with a spare 15-rd magazine. * * *
After fixing it for you, Sarge, I agree. Quite the bad-guy stopper there.

You can thank me later.

Mighty kind of you to look out for me like that.

In all honesty I don't think the terminal 'improvement' of a 40 caliber XTP, only 15 grains heavier and going 150 fps faster, would even be noticeable. If I was going to lug something that big around it would be one of my 45 Colts or a G21 in 45 Super.

Now those are real thumpers

jr24 · November 25, 2016, 10:36 AM

Quote:

My notion of an ideal anti-personnel rig is a 40/165/XTP or HST type bullet at 1100 fps from a pistol with substantial capacity, along with a spare magazine.

Compared to 147 grain HST 9mm going at 1000 fps is pretty close, considering:

Quote:

In all honesty I don't think the terminal 'improvement' of a 40 caliber XTP, only 15 grains heavier and going 150 fps faster, would even be noticeable.

At least, that's how I feel. I like the 147 grain 9mm just as much as any of my old .40's, terminally.

DHart · November 25, 2016, 11:27 AM

Quote:

If I was going to lug something that big around it would be one of my 45 Colts or a G21 in 45 Super.

Now those are real thumpers

On thinking about picking up a G20, I'm tempted to give .45 Super a try in my G21SF first. That would be easy to do, inexpensive to try, and fun.

Then again, .40S&W 180 gr. HST, approaching 1000 fps, (consistently testing to 18.5" penetration and expansion to .72" in ballistic gel) is a very effective pistol defense load. And from a great pistol like a SIG P320 or M&P40, I'm sure content.

Going to a bigger platform and a heavier recoiling load doesn't have a lot of appeal to me, day to day.

jaytothekizzay · November 25, 2016, 12:04 PM

What you got on my 40 regg???

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Oysterboy · November 25, 2016, 01:38 PM

Winchester WWB 40sw 180 JHP Personal Protection. A budget line of SD ammo that does good. The YouTuber is all excited with it LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBi9t7S0Fpg

Pop Quiz: how many times did he say economical?

DHart · November 25, 2016, 02:15 PM

I'd trust it... plus, it's EK-a-NOM-a-kul!

agtman · November 25, 2016, 08:31 PM

Quote:

What you got on my 40 regg???

Dog! ... Wat de folk up wit dat .40 talky shizzel?

DHart · November 26, 2016, 12:57 AM

Good one, agtman.

Sarge · November 26, 2016, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge

My notion of an ideal anti-personnel rig is a 40/165/XTP or HST type bullet at 1100 fps from a pistol with substantial capacity, along with a spare magazine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jr24

Compared to 147 grain HST 9mm going at 1000 fps is pretty close, considering:

Actually that 147 grain HST is a dead heat with the better examples of the old 38 FBI Load. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

sig1 · November 26, 2016, 12:01 PM

Here is a good representation of what the 40 is capable of, i have talked with Underwood and they assure me they are under the saami specs for pressure.

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DHart · November 26, 2016, 01:14 PM

Barrel Length Matters.

Oysterboy · November 26, 2016, 01:18 PM

Good one my friend.

Sarge · November 26, 2016, 01:35 PM

LMAO

Sarge · November 26, 2016, 02:27 PM

That Underwood 40/165 at 1200 fps just my become my new 'coyote' load

Oysterboy · November 26, 2016, 02:29 PM

I have a box of Uw 40sw 155 XTP in my stash. I bought two boxes and shot one box. Hard hitting at 1300 fps and sound like a magnum but no snap.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · November 26, 2016, 08:27 PM

I believe 40 S&W is too much for most People.
In my case I would never go over an 9mm Luger in an handgun. I have an 357 mag all steel SAA Revolver 5.5" but factory 357 mag rounds are a bit stout for me.

I even will sell my Plastik pistols in 9mm Luger since they are just too light and recoil is too much. That pistol will be replaced with an 9mm Luger 34 oz to 42 oz Metall pistol (Beretta 92 or Taurus PT92).

I remember James Yeager saying on Youtube that pistols (specially polymer ones) in high pressure calibers as 40 S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm just don't hold up and start to fail prematurely (during his classes I assume). It has to be eighter an 9mm Luger or 45 acp (low pressure caliber).
So there you have it. That sounds reasonable.

From the Plastik 9mm Pistol I developed an serious flinch which I detected each time I shot afterwards the 357 mag SAA 36 oz Revolver. An Plastik pistol in any caliber just screws up your Shooting skills.
An tiny polymer pistol in 380 acp is acceptable only for concealed carry (like the Beretta Pico 380 acp).

sig1 · November 26, 2016, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuyOfSouthamerica

I believe 40 S&W is too much for most People.
In my case I would never go over an 9mm Luger in an handgun. I have an 357 mag all steel SAA Revolver 5.5" but factory 357 mag rounds are a bit stout for me.

I even will sell my Plastik pistols in 9mm Luger since they are just too light and recoil is too much. That pistol will be replaced with an 9mm Luger 34 oz to 42 oz Metall pistol (Beretta 92 or Taurus PT92).

I remember James Yeager saying on Youtube that pistols (specially polymer ones) in high pressure calibers as 40 S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm just don't hold up and start to fail prematurely (during his classes I assume). It has to be eighter an 9mm Luger or 45 acp (low pressure caliber).
So there you have it. That sounds reasonable.

From the Plastik 9mm Pistol I developed an serious flinch which I detected each time I shot afterwards the 357 mag SAA 36 oz Revolver. An Plastik pistol in any caliber just screws up your Shooting skills.
An tiny polymer pistol in 380 acp is acceptable only for concealed carry (like the Beretta Pico 380 acp).

I believe 9mm is the same pressure as 40s&w.

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TheGuyOfSouthamerica · November 26, 2016, 09:23 PM

Well with pressure the "Internet experts" do not mean round pressure in chamber but rather recoil and wear of guns.

Wear&tear must be bigger for an pistol which shoots an 160 grain bullet going with 1200 fps (about 40 S&W) than for one Shooting an 115 grain bullet going with 1200 fps.
An 45acp would be an high pressure round as well if the 230 grain bullet would go with 1200 fps and that would mean much hardship for the gun anit would wear out early. But the 45acp 230 grain goes for about 800 fps.

We could enter in the realm of pressures. There seems to be an multiplication effect if you increase the bullet weight and powder Charge which wears the gun faster.

Another factor is the construction of the gun. I agree that most likely most early 40 S&W, 357 SIG and 10mm guns were made based on the 9mm Luger pistols Frames and designs.
Obviously if you Beef up the Beretta 92 to twice as much steel on all parts then the 10mm should shoot out of that 68 oz gun as pleasant as an 9mm Luger round and would not tear up the gun.
It seems the Plastik pistols better stay with 9mm Luger or less and for high pressure calibers you Need an all Metall gun to insure durability.
The high pressure caliber guns should be designed from scratch up.

Take just the Beretta Tomcat design. As I read Beretta tried hard to get that gun working in 380 acp or even 9mm Luger but they had allways Trouble with cracking weapons. That design seems to be limited to 25acp and 32acp.

TunnelRat · November 26, 2016, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Well with pressure the "Internet experts" do not mean round pressure in chamber but rather recoil and wear of guns.

Then the experts need to choose words more carefully. Yeager was wrong when he made that statement. He has a tendency to make comments that he later reverses or as he might put it, "clarifies".

Quote:

It seems the Plastik pistols better stay with 9mm Luger or less and for high pressure calibers you Need an all Metall gun to insure durability.

The Glock 20 and 29 seem to hold up to 10mm despite being polymer. There are plastic pistols such as the HK USP that also seem to hold up well to 40SW. It seems more to do with the design than the material. If you find one frame material more comfortable than another to shoot that's of course your call.

Quote:

An Plastik pistol in any caliber just screws up your Shooting skills.

What's odd is there are any number of plastic pistols that I find just as soft shooting as say a P226 or CZ 75 (i.e. HK P2000, Glock 17/19, S&W M&P, etc). When I go back and forth between them I don't notice my shooting skills being screwed up. Again that may be subjective.

Sarge · November 26, 2016, 09:44 PM

I've taught many women and several smaller men to proficiently manage Glock model 22, 23 and 27 pistols. The agency I retired from had been using the same G22's for 10 years with no parts replacement other than replacing a couple of magazines that were dropped and stepped on during dynamic training exercises.

They ran fine. I ultimately replaced them with new Glocks, only because Glock had a trade-in program running that allowed me to do so for little more than the cost of parts for servicing them.

The notion that quality 40 caliber pistols are a service problem or require continual parts replacement is not only contrary to my experience, it is also something I never heard mentioned in several cycles of Glock Armorer School.

Oysterboy · November 26, 2016, 09:46 PM

I heard different about polymer guns so take it with a grain of salt. I heard that polymer frames flexes under stress and hold up where the all metal frames develop cracks.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · November 26, 2016, 09:56 PM

I just repeat what I read and what James Yeager said.

I rather would have an Metall car than an Plastik Chassis car. But I am not an expert. Fact is that Plastik guns, even in 9mm Luger are way to light for me. The 36 oz SAA 1873 model Pietta Revolver is way more pleasant to shoot than any 9mm Luger Plastik pistol.

Obviously Glock as an Plastik worshiper manufacturer will not admit anyfailures and there may be None as well.

Yes polymer may be stronger since it gives but stainless steel you can pass to your grandchildren.
Still a Plastik gun is not a gun for me.

November 24, 2016, 11:37 PM	#152
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	John... good catch. The P320 Full size 9mm slide weighs 1# 1.3 oz. Chart has been corrected. Last edited by DHart; November 24, 2016 at 11:46 PM.

November 24, 2016, 11:52 PM	#153
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,566	Thanks! I've adjusted my post to reflect your information. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

November 26, 2016, 01:35 PM	#166
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,495	LMAO __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

November 26, 2016, 02:27 PM	#167
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,495	That Underwood 40/165 at 1200 fps just my become my new 'coyote' load __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

November 26, 2016, 08:27 PM	#169
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	All high pressure calibers are to much recoil for me I believe 40 S&W is too much for most People. In my case I would never go over an 9mm Luger in an handgun. I have an 357 mag all steel SAA Revolver 5.5" but factory 357 mag rounds are a bit stout for me. I even will sell my Plastik pistols in 9mm Luger since they are just too light and recoil is too much. That pistol will be replaced with an 9mm Luger 34 oz to 42 oz Metall pistol (Beretta 92 or Taurus PT92). I remember James Yeager saying on Youtube that pistols (specially polymer ones) in high pressure calibers as 40 S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm just don't hold up and start to fail prematurely (during his classes I assume). It has to be eighter an 9mm Luger or 45 acp (low pressure caliber). So there you have it. That sounds reasonable. From the Plastik 9mm Pistol I developed an serious flinch which I detected each time I shot afterwards the 357 mag SAA 36 oz Revolver. An Plastik pistol in any caliber just screws up your Shooting skills. An tiny polymer pistol in 380 acp is acceptable only for concealed carry (like the Beretta Pico 380 acp).

November 25, 2016, 12:04 PM	#157
jaytothekizzay Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2008 Location: st. louis Posts: 450	What you got on my 40 regg??? Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

November 25, 2016, 01:38 PM	#158
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	Winchester WWB 40sw 180 JHP Personal Protection. A budget line of SD ammo that does good. The YouTuber is all excited with it LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBi9t7S0Fpg Pop Quiz: how many times did he say economical?

November 25, 2016, 02:15 PM	#159
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	I'd trust it... plus, it's EK-a-NOM-a-kul!

November 26, 2016, 12:57 AM	#161
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	Good one, agtman.

November 26, 2016, 12:01 PM	#163
sig1 Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 76	Here is a good representation of what the 40 is capable of, i have talked with Underwood and they assure me they are under the saami specs for pressure. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

November 26, 2016, 01:14 PM	#164
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	Barrel Length Matters.

November 26, 2016, 01:18 PM	#165
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	Good one my friend.

November 26, 2016, 02:29 PM	#168
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	I have a box of Uw 40sw 155 XTP in my stash. I bought two boxes and shot one box. Hard hitting at 1300 fps and sound like a magnum but no snap.

November 26, 2016, 09:23 PM	#171
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Well with pressure the "Internet experts" do not mean round pressure in chamber but rather recoil and wear of guns. Wear&tear must be bigger for an pistol which shoots an 160 grain bullet going with 1200 fps (about 40 S&W) than for one Shooting an 115 grain bullet going with 1200 fps. An 45acp would be an high pressure round as well if the 230 grain bullet would go with 1200 fps and that would mean much hardship for the gun anit would wear out early. But the 45acp 230 grain goes for about 800 fps. We could enter in the realm of pressures. There seems to be an multiplication effect if you increase the bullet weight and powder Charge which wears the gun faster. Another factor is the construction of the gun. I agree that most likely most early 40 S&W, 357 SIG and 10mm guns were made based on the 9mm Luger pistols Frames and designs. Obviously if you Beef up the Beretta 92 to twice as much steel on all parts then the 10mm should shoot out of that 68 oz gun as pleasant as an 9mm Luger round and would not tear up the gun. It seems the Plastik pistols better stay with 9mm Luger or less and for high pressure calibers you Need an all Metall gun to insure durability. The high pressure caliber guns should be designed from scratch up. Take just the Beretta Tomcat design. As I read Beretta tried hard to get that gun working in 380 acp or even 9mm Luger but they had allways Trouble with cracking weapons. That design seems to be limited to 25acp and 32acp.

November 26, 2016, 09:44 PM	#173
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,495	I've taught many women and several smaller men to proficiently manage Glock model 22, 23 and 27 pistols. The agency I retired from had been using the same G22's for 10 years with no parts replacement other than replacing a couple of magazines that were dropped and stepped on during dynamic training exercises. They ran fine. I ultimately replaced them with new Glocks, only because Glock had a trade-in program running that allowed me to do so for little more than the cost of parts for servicing them. The notion that quality 40 caliber pistols are a service problem or require continual parts replacement is not only contrary to my experience, it is also something I never heard mentioned in several cycles of Glock Armorer School. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

November 26, 2016, 09:46 PM	#174
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	I heard different about polymer guns so take it with a grain of salt. I heard that polymer frames flexes under stress and hold up where the all metal frames develop cracks.

November 26, 2016, 09:56 PM	#175
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	I just repeat what I read and what James Yeager said. I rather would have an Metall car than an Plastik Chassis car. But I am not an expert. Fact is that Plastik guns, even in 9mm Luger are way to light for me. The 36 oz SAA 1873 model Pietta Revolver is way more pleasant to shoot than any 9mm Luger Plastik pistol. Obviously Glock as an Plastik worshiper manufacturer will not admit anyfailures and there may be None as well. Yes polymer may be stronger since it gives but stainless steel you can pass to your grandchildren. Still a Plastik gun is not a gun for me.