Knife brought to gun fight at Wal-Mart

[AcridSaint]

I am going to repeat my urge for all of the anti-knife folks to please do some knife work and let someone who has no experience attack you with a training knife. If you still believe that the knife is insignificant compared to the gun then you're either a world-class gun fighter or I feel very sorry for you. Either way, we've done what we can to get the point across - don't underestimate anyone with any size/shape/style of knife. I like that Suarez/Dog Brothers video - Die Less Often.

[The Tourist]

First, to 45ACPShooter, let me also add that I believe in our other practices here. One of them is Jeff Cooper's 'condition yellow.' If I'm doing my part, and I see the traditional hinkie behavior and someone closing distance on me, I'm going to keep advised no matter what style of weapon he carries.

Yes, I know bad guys carry firearms. But like anyone else, they bleed. And to that end ya' have to fall back on your strengths. I was trained with a blade, both in college fencing and more "informal pursuits." My handgun style IPSC skills are rudimentary and rusty. And in Wisconsin I am more apt to have a blade than be near any firearm, although that's not a golden rule.

Originally Posted by BlackFeather

both, when used as weapons, are just as deadly in their own rights.

Of course, and many of us know that. But I am speaking more from the initial concerns of the "bullet trumps blade" argument. There are lots of folks who just dismiss the blade altogether--totally. In their mind the knife is a substandard weapon. To them, the gun will always win.

Their logic is flawed. They are trained in firearms, and the gun is more 'powerful,' everyone knows that.

In this debate we have discussed contact distances, the 21-Foot Rule, we have quoted Massad Ayoob, shown pictures, even discussed new advances in steel and the implements.

My fear is that old sensei buggaboo. "I have a gun, I'm superior." And the fudds here who know better abdicate their role as a mentor, or fear ridicule when confronted by the "knife to a gunfight" joke.

Fights are close up, personal, sudden and deadly. There isn't going to be a protracted exchange of gunshots and heroic banter. There's going to be a flash of steel in a smoky saloon or on a darkened street, and nobody is going to care one bit about your fancy-schmancy 1911 custom.

[couldbeanyone]

Tourist, if you would have got the chip off of your shoulder long enough to have read my post, you would have seen that I agreed with your basic point. But, my point is that a Kabar will kill you just as dead as a custom.

[The Tourist]

Oh, I understand. If I'm writing to an individual, you'll find that I name that individual and/or address the overall item as in a debate for every member.

For example, clearly I'm not the spokesperson for motorcycling or knives, but you might utilize a subject I promoted to advance your views. This happens in forums. I've learned not to take offense.

In fact, this thread has been civil, and while I might use 'tongue-in-cheek' examples, I don't dislike my detractors...

...and I'm deeply sorry if I've offended you over a debating point. You have my sincere apology.

[Ben Towe]

We can pull unlikely scenarios out of the air all day long but that doesn't change any facts. A knife is a deadly weapon for sure, maybe even more deadly than a small caliber handgun. But to say it is more deadly than your average .40 .357 .44 Mag is rash at best. Any of these rounds, loaded with anti-personnel rounds (Hydra Shok, Gold Dot, etc.) like most us use, create massive, often instantly fatal wounds and can be utilized at extended distances or at contact. No one is denying that you can be killed by some dope crazed fiend even after taking a hit from one but when we talk about deadliness, the gun wins every time.
If someone decides to cram a knife in your back in line at the grocery store there's nothing you can do about that. In a frontal attack you're going to get cut or shot if they are close enough when it starts. The weapon doesn't matter. The BG always has the drop. Distance and training and mind set are your only friends. You can't prevent everything even if you walked around like you were in downtown Baghdad all the time.
All this talk about kimbo slicing through handgun armed opponents with your special "magic alloy" Japanese knife is balder dash. Because you quickly debone a leg of lamb doesn't mean you can successfully stop a man from killing you. Legs of lamb aren't backing up, kicking you in the groin, driving your nasal bones into your brain, or drawing a projectile weapon while you're hacking on them. Not saying it can't be done but come on. I've seen Bob Munden draw and fire two shots so fast with a Colt SAA all you could hear was one shot and you couldn't even see his hands move. But how many of us can do that? About the same number as can do samurai magic with a knife. Talking about it here is one thing, doing it is another.
I'm curious to see this 21 foot rule proved as well.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Ben Towe

slicing through handgun armed opponents with your special "magic alloy" Japanese knife is balder dash.

Ben, I respect your opinion but the facts do not hold to your point of view.

The computer is filled with info on folded steel. You can watch Japanese fisherman slice up fish on numerous cites. There are videos of bushido schools where teenage kids slice up grass mats like swinging a baseball bat.

Like it or not, there are 800 year old katanas in museums that are sharper than even our trained butchers can provide.

I handle these knives--and less proficient American Buck 110 equivalents--every day. I bought my wife a Hattori gyuto, and she has no MA training at all. Meat falls apart for her.

Folded steel goes through leather, kevlar, tendons and layers of flesh like a laser beam. In fact, about four years ago I had a mole removed from my forehead. I joked with my doc that my EDC was sharper than his scalpel. For fun, we tested them. I had a fifty dollar Syderco (buffed like a sashimi knife) that out-cut his scalpel.

Unlike handguns, I sharpen knives for anyone without a 'license' or a waiting period. I have done so in my county since about 1998.

I know a roofer and a tree trimmer that have sharper knives than you've ever seen, and can inflict damage beyond the average person's belief.

And you can buy waterstones and study Japanese history from numerous outlets and libraries.

Edit: Ben, to provide some info, here are some Japanese folded steel pocketknives, some with cores of VG-10. You can buy them on the internet.

http://www.japaneseknifedirect.com/MCUSTA.html

[45ACPShooter]

It doesn't really matter how sharp the weapon if you can't get it to the target before being killed. I'm a fan of knives as much of the next person but you should be realistic. Yes sometimes someone with a knife is going to win against someone with a gun but for the most part the fight is heavily in favor of the person with a gun. There's always extremes but I'm not going to base my self-defense on the hope that I can get to an enemy before he shoots me or that I'm going to be able to push through the damage to attack him.

You still haven't my addressed my point about engaging multiple opponents. It'd be a lot easier for several people to overpower you if you have a knife than a drawn firearm. You can't say that knives are better than firearms because you can get to a target quicker than they can draw their firearm. At the same time I could say someone with a holstered knife stands no chance against someone who has a gun pointed at them. The point of the tueller drill is to show people how quickly someone with a knife can reach someone a firearm before they can draw it. It's not trying to say that someone already has the firearm out so stating that as to how a knife is better doesn't make sense.

One big thing you keep forgetting is that regardless of how good you are with a knife someone is still going to have a chance to fight back even if it's unarmed. Assuming you're not standing right to next to someone when they're pointing a firearm at you there's not really a whole lot you can do if your unarmed or are armed with a knife or any other close contact weapon and someone is pointing a firearm at you. Someone unarmed can still fight with you and struggle with you if you have a knife. It's not a light saber that can cut through limbs, a knife may cause grievous wounds but you still need to cut an artery or something essential to kill someone in a short time with a knife. I've heard of countless times someone having defensive wounds and surviving against someone with a knife. Yes over time someone may bleed to death from a cut to the outside of the arm even if you miss an artery but they're still going to fight you for a while. It's like you claiming that someone can fight you for a while with multiple gunshot wounds before they succumb.

A knife is better than no weapon at all but I think it's pretty clear why firearms are used so much more frequently. For the most part people aren't going to use a knife unless they can't obtain a firearm.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by 45ACPShooter

It doesn't really matter how sharp the weapon if you can't get it to the target before being killed.

That goes for everyone, including gun guys.

But that's not the real focus of my position. Again, I am trying to reach out to those guys who believe that a bullet always trumps a knife. And trust me, there are lots of those guys.

And as I have tried to point out, there is a real trend in upgrading traditional edged tools. I was/am a member of various sharpening and cooking forums. The trend for these professionals is away from German products and a rush to Japanese knives.

Addtionally, more and more average Joes are buying better pocketknives for work and for hunting. Sharpening supply businesses, like Ben Dale's Edge Pro, are shipping out products like never before. Check in with the sharpening area on knife forums, and there is hot trade being done in securing sharpening stones imported directly from Japan.

Now granted, not everyone is going to own one of these knives. But is that your manual of arms for carrying a gun?

"Well, the odds are I probably won't die, and perhaps the guy doesn't own a Japanese knife..."

Not every gun guy wins, and if I've done nothing but get you to consider that aspect, then the knife guys have accomplished their goal.

Edit: If I ever saw a fight begin where a guy began to "clear his coat" and the other pulled a polished Japanese folder, I would intervene by trying to pull the gun guy to safety. There is precious little chance a knife guy buys that sort of thing by accident, and once the action begins there is a real chance we will never be able to get an ambulance to gun guy in time to save his life.

[markj]

I have come to the conclusion that knives are deadlier than guns,

I use knives a lot, skin, gut, de bone (spinner and solid blade) and I say the gun is a far deadlier weapon than any knife jap steel or otherwise. I can never get my knife to go out 100 ft. A knife is a up close and personal weapon, not accurate at longer distance, thrown or not.

But you will reply with many paragraphs explaining your point, but it is false.

If a guy comes at me and I have a knife on the belt and a .45 in a holster you can bet your beans I will reach for the gun. Not many folks use a knife these days, whats next? the dangers of the ice pick? I find this thread to be a real laff, get some hand to hand training, maybe a body guard school where you learn weapon removal tactics, then the knife wont seem so deadly.

Isnt this a gun forum?

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by markj

Isnt this a gun forum?

Of course it's a gun forum. I'm a gun guy. But I'm not going to spread an urban legend because some guy's ego can't take it.

As for "100 feet away," we have repeated spoken about 'contact distances.' We have provided links, pictures, the advice of many long term TFL members.

As I stated earlier, there are always going to be "bullet trumps knife" guys. I could hack their best friend into sushi right before their eyes and most of them would shrug, "Lucky slice. Bet he can't do that again..."

Send me a knife, I'll sharpen it for free. Cut up some hotdogs--wrap them in denim, if you like. Just print your findings here.

[KingEdward]

I wonder how many perps or people who we (as ccw practicers)
might encounter in conflict are proficient with the knife? I carry
one or two knives rountinely (gerber / kershaw).

Proficient meaning not can hold one and swing with it, I mean can slice a person up like a thanksgiving turkey in 3 seconds.

I'll go out on a limb and say less than 5% are so proficient with a knife
that they have a significant advantage.

Now if the knife is out and the gun is concealed and both are 8 feet apart, sure the knife wielder may have already won.

But if the knife is out and the gun is out and the knife wielder lunges low (or high) to slash, 9 times out of 10 he'll get shot multiple times.

[The Tourist]

KingEdward, fair enough, you bring up proficiency and "the odds."

So if we're creating scenarios, let me outline one:

You decide to come to Madison, Wisconsin to enjoy the lakes and see the Capitol Building. For any of a number of reasons, a guy in a black leather jacket and you start to squabble.

From being a TFL member you know that I sell and sharpen to bikers, I even set up at Capital City Harley.

Considering that our county has +175,000 people, the odds are that I probably have never met this biker. Then again, I may have. In fact, in the twenty odd years I've worked here perhaps he upgraded his collection, and that knife he has is "mine."

Now your odds are worse. We always tell newbies to never conduct themselves with a gun in any way differing than they would without a gun.

What would you decide in that split second before a knife is produced?

[JohnKSa]

What would you decide in that split second before a knife is produced?

Law abiding citizens don't decide to engage in armed encounters based on their assessment of the armament and skill of their attacker.

They engage in armed encounters when they have no other option but to use deadly force to defend against a criminal attack.

[KingEdward]

I don't squabble or argue on the street. If someone is pushing that,
or is agressive, I will move on or if I engage it will be to empathize
and de escalate / create distance.

If neither work and I am met with agressive language tone or actions,
the threat (if there) will be met accordingly.

Meaning I may choose to retreat to cover (vehicle, door, building).

Meaning I may pull the phone and dial that number.

Or it may mean that said threat made the decision for me to use
deadly force.

[markj]

Thanks for the offer but I sharpen my own knives. A dull knife is a hazard, Dad was a butcher and he taught me a trick or two. Been to yer area a few times, I am a biker myself since the early 60s.

I sure hope no one has to test this knife against gun thing. A knife can cut deep and isnt anything to play with, same as a gun. But for me the gun is a far better SD tool. Did I tell you I can hang, skin and de bone a deer in a couple hours or so? Pigs go from on the foot to in the cooker in 30 min or so. Takes a good kinfe for that.

[AcridSaint]

I don't understand why everyone is getting upset here or trying to argue that a gun is better in X or Y circumstance. I also don't understand where this misconception that the knife wielder must have any knife skill comes from. None of us is talking about engaging multiple targets with a knife, none of us is saying a knife always trumps a gun. Well, at least that's not what I'm saying. Maybe my posts aren't coming through

[The Tourist]

I think the real asset of this debate is to get people thinking.

I have no dog in this fight, for the most part we are debunking a joke and urging people to think, that's all.

I'm not as pro-knife as I might be painted, but I am "anti-excruciating-death."

I read an editorial about Bush43 once. His defender said, "If he gets involved too early in foreign policy he's a cowboy, if he arrives to late he's uncaring." I believe the same dynamic is here in this urban legend. If we point out a problem with a "bullet trumps knife" belief, we get heckled. If a member here was badly sliced I'm sure someone would remark, "Hey, Chico, you're in the cutlery industry, how come you never spoke up before?"

Many fudds know the problematic aspects of using saloon stories, urban legends and TV shows as a guide for real life and death decisions. This thread demonstrates this. Look at how many guys who have years of firearms experience actually believe that a knife is a substandard weapon.

In the future, this 'legend' will re-surface again by a new set of members. Hopefully some member who debated in this thread will point out that jokes are a bad source of information.

[BlackFeather]

I can never get my knife to go out 100 ft. A knife is a up close and personal weapon, not accurate at longer distance, thrown or not.

Really? Didn't know... But why are you trying to kill someone at that distance instead of running and finding cover?

I don't blame anyone for wanting to have a gun over a knife. Just don't doubt the ability to die from one. No one said you should carry a knife over a gun because it is deadlier in more self defense situations. I don't know why you people argue as though this is what we are saying.

If you want to think you can defend yourself with a gun at hand to hand ranges against a meth head trying to get your wallet you may need remember that he is going to cut and stab the head and neck before he runs off. Hard to cover your face when aiming a gun. Sure, you may not need to aim that close, but consider his lack of reasoning and paranoia.

I have been attacked by a tweaker in the dark, alone, unarmed, and on a walking bridge. I had one direction to run, I knew he was behind me. I turned and he had already drawn the knife and lunged forward. I simply stepped back and slapped the knife hand down, which caught my leg and hurt, before hitting him across the face a few times. I then ran off. A gun would have only helped had I drawn it and told him to stop or I would shoot.

[couldbeanyone]

I don't know how to tell some of you folks this, but, I understand your knife is really, really sharp. You told us so for six pages now. I don't care if it cost 2000 dollars and was sharpened on a water stone. I don't care if it cost 20dollars and was sharpened with a file. Both are a deadly weapon and should be treated accordingly. A dull knife with a good point can still stab you to death. Lets not loose sight of the real point here.

[MasterBlaster556]

To me, the bottom line is this: Whether with guns or knives(both very deadly in thier own rite) fights are more complex and individual than finger prints. It all changes with each unique situation. We all totally agree there right? Me? I'll take the gun everytime. I'm not extremely proficient with either but with a familiar gun I"m pretty certain I could avoid dyin if charged by a crazy person with a knife. Might get cut, but still NOT DEAD. And I'm just average with a firearm. Do you guys think an average Blademan could be so certain about a crazy person with a gun? Awesome debate by the way. this is my first post and I'm already hooked! HELP PROTECT OUR 2ND AMENDMENT

[BlackFeather]

I don't know how to tell some of you folks this, but, I understand your knife is really, really sharp. You told us so for six pages now. I don't care if it cost 2000 dollars and was sharpened on a water stone. I don't care if it cost 20dollars and was sharpened with a file. Both are a deadly weapon and should be treated accordingly. A dull knife with a good point can still stab you to death. Lets not loose sight of the real point here.

*Facepalm*

I believe I said it doesn't matter how expensive or sharp it is, it will kill.

I carry a $4.00 knife in a $25.00 sheath. I also have a folder that most likely costs no more than the other knife. I use a simple military surplus stone to sharpen mine. I also modified my fixed blade to assist in my trained methods. The back has a sort of serration that is very useful for non-lethal defense.

[BlackFeather]

Do you guys think an average Blademan could be so certain about a crazy person with a gun?

I consider myself average and yet having had a gun pointed at me last year I simply TOLD the man to put it away, I was wearing my trench coat and he has a CCL so I think he knew he screwed up and thought I may have a gun. I don't know why he pulled it but all the same.

I don't expect to stop a crazed gunman, I simply use my intelligence to get away safely and will help others if need be. Call me suicidal or noble but I WILL put myself in harms way to help another. There is another thread about a teacher stopping a man armed with a rifle. A handgun is indeed different as many have stated. The knife I carry is simply a means to defend myself against whatever it is I can handle. A crazed man with a gun would most definitely kill me, but if I can stop him from killing others I may do it, if he is after just me then I will do my best to get the hell out...

[markj]

But why are you trying to kill someone at that distance instead of running and finding cover?

Was a statement to show the distance factor. A gun is lethal a lot farther out than a blade. A knife sure can do damage but you need to be within arms reach.

Now lets talk about a very lethal weapon, the 25 ft bull whip. My Uncle (Deputy sheriff) was adept with this, he could take a cigarette out of my Aunts mouth, he could flick a fly off a wall. I would rather have a gun tho

[threegun]

At contact distances I would prefer the knife. It won't jam at contact and is much harder to take away while still providing a wicked ability to incapacitated a foe. In trained hands each targeted slash has a purpose. Within seconds limbs can be rendered useless and bowels spilled.

That said IMO the walmart guy (with the gun) had much better odds of survival.

See the knife folks fail to understand that they too will be damaged while getting into range for knife deployment. If the gun guy retreats while inflicting damage even more can be inflicted. Charging a hail of lead is not very smart or life extending.

So to close simply understand the lethality of the blade.......respect its potential.....then understand your firearm and its drawbacks.....one thing is for sure YOU DON'T WANT A MAN WITH A KNIFE AT CONTACT DISTANCE.

[BUZ]

Lucky he did not get shot.