Why 8 bullets simply isnt enough...

[David Armstrong]

Or one attacker who doesnt know the rules.

The beauty of what peetzakilla is saying is the BG doesn't need to know the rules, or even follow the rules. There are certain chances and probabilities out there, and understanding thm prepares you for whatever level of likelihood you want to prepare for. Nobody can prepare for 100% of the chances, so how far do you want to go. If your gear is sufficient for 99.95% of the problems, do you really need to worry about something beyond that level? Or are your resources better spent on some other endeavor?

[MTMilitiaman]

I grew up in a small rural town in Western Montana called Paradise, about six miles east of Plains, on Hw. 200. My childhood school had kindergarten through eighth grade, and the largest population of students it ever had was barely over 50, and that included kids from the surrounding area. The sign said "pop. 300," but everyone there knew that was a bit optimistic. There were 300 dogs, but probably not 200 people.

I spent much of my childhood on my grandpa's property outside St. Regis, an area so remote they don't have electricity and have only had phone service for about ten years or so. Much of my childhood they've lacked even that, and they have always run on generator power. My grandpa has plenty of guns and can practice with them in his backyard. To this day, it's a .357 Mag revolver on his bedstand, and either a pump action .30-06 hunting rifle or lever action .44 Mag that gets his attention when he suspects prowlers are about. Most prowlers turn out to be about 15 pounds and furry. Sometimes a black bear will wonder down off the mountain. One time he had some lost campers pull into his driveway at 2 in the morning. He confronted them, naked, with his handgun, and they couldn't seem to get out of the driveway fast enough.

When I moved from there at age 13, we moved to a small community outside another small town in NW Montana. Once my grandma (mom's side) fell and broke her hip. Even with the address, it took the ambulance almost an hour to find the house. There's definitely some weird characters out there. My house is less than 30 miles as the crow flies from Ruby Ridge, ID. I am a scenic two hours or so from the Canadian border. We've got the crazy anti-gov types, the so-called militias (none of which I am a part of, despite my handle).

My whole life I have lived in these small, poor, rural Montana towns. I've seen third world conditions in the richest and most powerful country the world has ever seen. I've seen people living year round in crude, uninsulated lean-tos constructed of plywood and tarps. I've bared witness to the effect of depression that comes from poverty, the unemployment, the alcoholism, the domestic abuse. Some of these towns have among the highest per capita drug use in the country. Meth is a huge problem. The loss of much of the mining and lumber industries has hit this part of the country hard, the economy is failing, and people are desperate, esp this time of year.

Thing about the crazies is, most of them live out in the sticks for a reason--they just want to be left alone. The rural crazies are mostly harmless. The best way to avoid confrontation with them is to keep your head up when you're wondering through the woods. If you stumble into the wrong pot field or find the wrong disgruntled Vietnam vet, there can be problems. We've been chased out of the woods before. We've had them approach us with guns drawn. I've had my share of hairy situations out in the woods with these guys. But by and large, they all just want their privacy. They'll push back, but most of them would rather you just went the hell away. My grandparents are arguably among these crazies. I have yet to see a one of them go looking for trouble. Most avoid people outright to the extent possible, and mostly mind their own business and keep to themselves, asking only the same from you. That is the beauty of Montana.

With the growing meth problem and other problems associated with the desperation of poverty, we do have our share of home break-ins. Few of them turn violent. All the normally contributing factors of violent crime are present. But Montana remains a pretty safe place to live. IIRC, we scored 18th on the per capita violent crime charts (year 2005 on the chart I saw, IIRC).

Does this mean violent crime doesn't happen? Absolutely not. And just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. I accept the fact that help in the country is a lot farther away than in more urban areas, and I believe in being prepared. But being prepared for me is a matter of mindset, prior planning and tactics, and training--not capacity.

I believe the effect of my rounds, not their volume, will determine the opponent's reaction. I believe only hits count, because I've seen the effect of misses, and been unimpressed. I believe sights exist for a reason, and every professional on the planet who goes into harms way and trains to fight and win, uses them, again, for a reason.

Spray and pray is not a trained technique. It is a technique born from the lack of adequate training and an improperly conditioned, weak, undisciplined mind. Twelve-year old children with AKs in Africa spray and pray. Sixteen-year old boys with Glocks in our inner cities spray and pray. Nineteen-year old boys in Iraq spray and pray. The nineteen-year old American men they franticly spray rounds in the general direction of reply with coordinated (loosely) aimed (quickly) fire. And they win because of this. This is because the accuracy more than the volume of their fire is superior to their enemy's. And this is why the 4x ACOG(RCO) has been called the Marine Corp infantryman's largest firepower advantage since the introduction of the Garand.

Marines use suppressive fire, which still isn't spray and pray as even with the SAW, my fire was always aimed. But these tactics rely on coordinated fire and maneuver by an entire team. One fire team gains fire superiority, which again, is a matter of not only volume but, as distinguishes the winners, accuracy while the other fire team "locates, closes with, and destroys..." the enemy by flanking the position and assaulting with grenades and rifle fire. But suppressive, a.k.a cover, fire is only ever effective when you can fire and maneuver, and this requires teammates. By yourself, suppressive fire results only in two opposing forces "pinned down" in positions of cover or concealment unable to move or gain tactical advantage.

The OP clearly has never had professional training, and clearly hasn't thought through what he believes is a logical thought process. If spray and pray is valid, and volume of fire wins the day, and if we are outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1, then all the enemy would have to do is spray and pray as well, and there'd be no way we could win. If the enemy is spraying and praying, and "moving tactically," then that is three sprays and prays to my one spray and pray, giving them the advantage in volume of fire, and therefore assuring victory regardless my own magazine capacity. In every example I have read of one man achieving victory over a numerically superior force in a gunfight, his tactics and accuracy, not the volume of his fire, was the deciding factor.

So capacity is not a bad thing. Using it as a crutch to make up for poor marksmanship and inferior tactics is a bad thing.

With eight rounds of .45 in the mag and one in the pipe, nine rounds will be enough for me to fight my way to a long gun barring any scenario short of a full out Red Dawn style Spetsnaz assault on my living room. It will allow me to neutralize the effectiveness of the first one or two assailants and allow me to get to a rifle, because the tactics I use are designed to do so, and because I have planned and placed said rifle in such a manner as to put me close to it and between it and the enemy from any conceivable entrance from which an assailant could gain entry into my domicile.

Spray and pray is as ridiculous as it looks on the movies...

[Brian Pfleuger]

If your gear is sufficient for 99.95%...

David,

Any idea what those numbers might be? I know you've seen a lot of studies and after action breakdown.
Maybe it's already been stated? It's been a long thread, I don't remember.

[Creature]

Clearly, your confidence is based on a lack of understanding of the threat you face...

Clearly you have never walked a step in my shoes.

[David Armstrong]

Any idea what those numbers might be? I know you've seen a lot of studies and after action breakdown.
Maybe it's already been stated?

I tossed that number out as just a generalized "you can get close but you can nnever get to 100%", not as a response to any particular issue. If you want to give me a specific I can see what I can work up on it.

[hogdogs]

As said by many before me... Practice! I am confident in my 6 rounds of 20 gauge being enough to take down 5 invaders... No missed shots... just the first time I fire I will likely put 2 in the first COM before I realize I need to work on others... I am in a rural location and if the home invader is getting close enough to be shot with justification, I am not missing nor do I need magnum nor high capacity...
Brent

[T. O'Heir]

"...There is something to be said about "spray and prey"..." Spray and what? Pray? That indicates poor training and fear. Accurate shooting is the only thing that matters.

[Brit]

Nate45

Not sure how you got the spray and prey etc credited to me! The only way I fit into your post is below;

what on earth is wrong about carrying, as I do, a Glock 19 with a full capacity of 16 rounds? If you don't use all 16 in a single assailant confrontation, the extra rounds are a good thing.

And remember "more is better always" no one is talking about multiple assailants as much as we all know shooting the same meth head a whole bunch might cut down on your 5 shot snobby survival bets!

[publius]

Nobody in-the-know practices spray&pray. Cover fire works well if you have several guys actually taking aimed fire at the enemy accompanied by a guy with a 240 or 249 handling the cover fire. I've never heard of a serial killer storming a house, they just don't operate that way. if you're out in the boonies and really think you have a real possisility of a group of people trying to break in you should invest in motion lights, an alarm system, bars on your windows, and a loaded shotgun and AR within reach. I live in the country (not in fear of mass zombie attack) and have bars on my windows, motion lights, and a shotgun ready.

[nate45]

Originally Posted by Brit

Not sure how you got the spray and prey etc credited to me! The only way I fit into your post is below;

I wasn't attributing that quote to you and have changed it with proper attribution.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you seemed to be saying that people were being dismissive or overly critical of carrying handguns with large capacity magazines.

My point was that the responses, in my estimation, were directed more at the content and wording of the Op and not the idea of carrying a large capacity handgun.

In my closing statement I was merely asking you a rhetorical question to make my point. I didn't for a moment consider that you thought 'spray and pray' was a sound tactic.

[gyp_c2]

I was once at a movie theatre in Alexandria, LA which you wouldnt think would be an area of gang violence. However, there appeared to me to be an overabundance of gang members.

...those were just pilots from England havin' some fun...

[SPUSCG]

wow this thread is just too good, now that i know i'll fight off large swarms of gang members on a daily basis i will carry:

sig p220 in a hip holster, a .40cal p229 in each shoulder holster, one left hand model, one right, i need to be able to fire one handed if an appendage is wounded, i will also carry a remington 1100 cut down and placed in an underarm rig and a sig p232 .380 in an ankle holster. A smilth and wesson 500 magnum with 4x scope will be in a satchel under my coat for those long distance shots. I will also wear 2 undervests full of impact plates and have a breakdown handi rifle in 300 mag in my car

[stantonizm]

You'll probably want to load up with some Extreme Shock exploding pants anti-serial killer ammunition too.

[SPUSCG]

i keep my double barreled p90 loaded with 5.7mm high-explosive filled cyanide tipped armor piericng ammo.

[Brit]

Well OK! I was going to start jumping up and in a minute! After 25 years of teaching all kinds of Law Enforcement, Military/Police/Teams/Armed Security I like to look at the big picture, and insert training that if possible, will be generic to all students.

At no time in my life did I think 5 or 6 rounds a good thing! We do not carry car insurance because we want to have a crash! We carry 15 and one in a Glock 19, because we can!

Not one of the individual young people who went through my classes did I ever tell that most of the situations of self defense, Police or not, was on average, two or three rounds total... "Just carry 4 rounds you will be fine"

No, I told them "More is better, always" Why? because I am not God, and I can not predict the future.

And if you can not hit a 2" circle (eye socket) at 21ft, (length of the average kitchen or living room, to not answer calls for Domestic Disturbance.

Because in a hostage event, if the hostage taker is holding a hostage in a tight grip, an eye socket is a real good place to hit.

So have a bunch of bullets, be accurate, and there is the lesson.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

If you want to give me a specific I can see what I can work up on it.

Well, I looked around at Gun Cite and did a few searches. I've never been able to find reliable data on how many shots are really fired on average, what the standard deviation might be... that sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Creature

Clearly you have never walked a step in my shoes.

I was using the and to show the silliness of questioning your carry methods based on the premise of the OP. I was not intending to question your choices. To the contrary.

[JohnH1963]

The usual advice on this website is to keep firing until the threat has been eliminated. That sounds like the right advice, good for public relations, politically correct and keeps the police administrators out of trouble

However, I fail to see how one can so quickly guage if the threat has been eliminated. This decision making needs to be made in a matter of milliseconds which cannot be possibly done.

So lets go by the standard advice of the threat being eliminated. I fire one bullet into the target's chest and then lower my weapon to see if the threat has been eliminated and wait a few seconds? Do I fire 2-3 bullets and wait? Is the threat being eliminated when the target falls to the ground or when they drop their weapon or when they stop moving???

If you think about the ole conventional wisdom on the site of the threat being eliminated, you cant easily tell if it truly has been eliminated.

The truth is that most guys would fire a volley into the threat. They would probably fire 3-4 or more and especially if the threat is close by in their house, charging at them or holding a pistol pointed at them. Some of the shots might miss while the target is in motion or may not **seem** to be effective so another volley of fire continues with another 3-4 shots.

How do these situations usually go down? On videos of gunfights, I never see the police or anyone do a simple double-tap and the threat is eliminated. Usually there is a lot of rounds expended.

[Brit]

How do these situations usually go down? On videos of gunfights, I never see the police or anyone do a simple double-tap and the threat is eliminated. Usually there is a lot of rounds expended.

John, The human body has a mass of good things in it that cause death, or at least a slow down of aggression, when hit by bullets.

Unfortunately most of these organs and arteries do not cause this death, or even any signs of being hit, right away.

So in reality, a close up attacker has to be basically shot to the ground!

A lucky hit (a lot of luck in hitting a target four plus inches of brain, and/or a hit on the top 4" of spine) into the CNS is required to switch off the body's computer, and then an instant collapse.
Even a hollow point hit that cuts a major artery in half, can take up to a minute to drop the blood pressure to a level to cause cease and desist.

Sixty seconds is a big slice (slice? no pun intended) of time for a close up attacker armed with, for instant a knife, to slice you and dice you.

You can fire 5 or 6 rounds in around 2 seconds! One attacker, leaves you a further supply of ten rounds or so for a brother, or close associate of this now dead or dieing criminal, to engage you. It could happen, even though statistically it is not very likely.
How does this sound, RULES OF A GUN FIGHT... There are no rules, maybe one, have a gun!

Starting out with 16 in the pistol seems like a nice security blanket to me, even if, like the majority of CCW pistol toter's, we carry and never fire our weapons in anger, ever.

[bds32]

Nobody in-the-know practices spray&pray.

Nobody may practice it on the range but it sure happens a lot in gunfights.

[TwoXForr]

Wish I had gotten in on it earlier.

If so I would have told everyone how chickens prevent crime.

It has been proven statisitcaly that the more chickens per capita the less crime there is.

But since I am only joining now I will not share that fact that chickens prevent crime.

As for "spraying and praying", John are you talking about cover fire, because cover fire is aimed, at least that is what Uncle Sam taught me. And I have provided cover fire on one occasion, and I was aiming for the window the shots were coming from, but then again I was in a hummv with a crate of ammo at my feet with no fear of running out that hot late morning.

Ammo is cheap, life is expensive.

[cerberus65]

I too am truly sad to have missed out on such a great thread in progress.

Bwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhahahahahahahah...Son I've been up on the Mother Ship getting probed in you know where....all the guns in the world wont help you when Grizhnak Slobberbobber of the Zarkon Federation puts the mind meld on ya and transports ya up for study.....

WA, you kill me, man! Thank you for such a good belly laugh on such an otherwise monday-ish morning!

OP, if 8 ain't enough you're in a world of doo-doo. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

BTW, though, suppressive fire = you go to jail. No kidding! As a civilian, there is no suppressive fire. There is only you firing in response to a direct threat to your life directly at the source of that threat. And even that may still get you sued in civil court. Anything beyond that and you'll do the criminal court thing. Best to avoid that...

[David Armstrong]

At no time in my life did I think 5 or 6 rounds a good thing! We do not carry car insurance because we want to have a crash! We carry 15 and one in a Glock 19, because we can!

And that is the key. There is a world of difference between what one can do, what one wants to do, and what one needs to do. Way too often we confuse "want" or "can" with "need." More is not always better, sometimes it is just more.

[David Armstrong]

It has been proven statisitcaly that the more chickens per capita the less crime there is.

Only someone who knows nothing about statistics and/or theoretical research would make such a statement. That is the problem with many of these discussions, too many people trying to discuss with authority something they obviously know nothing about.

[David Armstrong]

Well, I looked around at Gun Cite and did a few searches. I've never been able to find reliable data on how many shots are really fired on average, what the standard deviation might be... that sort of thing.

PM sent.

[TwoXForr]

Well Exsuce Me.

Mr. Armstrong Just trying to make a joke in the same vein of this famous American philospher.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
-Mark Twain