A Challenge to the 870 Express Bashers....

[MAX100]

I don't know what we are calling an old 870 Express or a new 870 Express. I bought a 870 Express Mag in 1998.

The Express 10 years or older are better guns.


GC

[OkieCruffler]

I think that can be said about just about every model of gun, car or banana bread out there.

[Dave McC]

Sorry, John, that's just not true.....

WW's 'nana bread keeps getting better and better and better......

The first time I recall hearing someone complain about 870 quality going downhill was in the late 70s or early 80s. A shipment of 870s arrived with very plain wood at the institution I worked in, and some folks decried the wood and finish.

They worked well.


So,seemingly, do the newer ones.

And still no takers......

[TxGun]

And still no takers......

Dave, I understand you're trying to make a point, but as a practical matter, you do realize there's zero incentive for anyone to go to the trouble, right? Maybe you're not really serious???

Unless someone who is having problems with his 870 happens to live in the same county, what's the attraction in your challenge? Any further away and...well traveling isn't free. At say, $100 for fuel and $100/night for a hotel (and that's if you're pretty darned close by) it means your offers would have to be at least $350 and $300 respectively just to break even. Plus take off work?...use your vacation time? Where's the incentive for any of that? There is none.

And BTW, as far as the monetary offer(s), you can get $150 and $100 for most any shotgun at a gun show....and those are local for most of us.

So...I don't see the point of continuing to bring up "no takers". Of course there aren't. The time and aggravation isn't ever going to be worth the potential payoff, IMO.

Don't get me wrong...I love the 870...big fan of the design. But I stick to Wingmasters. The Express guns, even if their function is perfect, are just too plain to have any real pride of ownership, IMO. And, most would agree there is more of a chance of "issues" with the newer Expresses than with an older Wingmaster which can be had for approx. the same cost. Again, all JMOs.

[Dave McC]

Tx, my point is made. Look over the thread. With the neutral and secondhand posts out of the way, positive reports run about 3 to 1 over the negative ones.

We can only surmise how many folks read the complaints with one eyebrow raised and moved on without comment, knowing their Expresses have been working and working and working.....

The Eastern Shore doesn't see me as much these days, but I reckon the guides I know are still using and abusing those Expresses,even rustproofing them with paraffin melted in with hair dryers.

As for "Pride of Ownership", one of the shotguns I'm proudest of is Frankenstein. No two major metal groups share a finish,neither does the wood. It's a lovable junkyard mutt of an 870 that works and works and works. It's made fun and food for me for close to 20 years.

And it makes most Expresses look good.....


For the record, I regard the problems SOME Expresses may have had as over reported, overblown and sensationalized.

Most Express owners seem a happy lot. This thread bears me out......

[rc601962]

Wrong. Three to one is a 25% failure rate. That is horrible. No decent manufacturer puts out products that fail 25% of the time. Your own words prove my point. Thanks for the admission of failure.

Dave, you have lost all credibility with me. Your whole initial post is stupid. You are Remington Bagdad Bob.

[Technosavant]

RC, how many of your posts here have been crapping on the 870? How many have actually been of worth on any other topic?

I'm still a bit surprised your account is still active given your trolling patterns.

The simple fact is that 100% of those who own 870s are not posting on the internet, let alone TFL. Dissatisfied owners are far more likely to post than satisfied ones. Given those facts, I'd take my chances with the 870; my chances of getting a good one vs. one with a rough chamber would be no worse than a Mossberg or Benelli with some kind of issue.

The 870 Express is inexpensive. I shudder to think of the depth of your rage if it had been you and not me that purchased my S&W Performance Center revolver. It had a couple minor issues that required a trip back to the factory, and it was fixed in a week. You'd likely have declared jihad given how you've been with a $300 shotgun.

[OkieCruffler]

I'm sure Dave is real dissappointed that his crediabilty is shot by someone with 37 post, 13 of which have been to call Dave a liar. I know it certainly has changed the way I view dave's advice.
I've known Dave in trhe internet fashion for as long as I've been on the internet, not just on this forum but many others. The opinion of about 98.9% of the posters on any forum I ignore (sorry guys, but you know I'm old and cranky) Dave falls into that other 1.1%. I've never known him to do anything other than try to help new shooters, even when his advice wasn't what they wanted to hear.
You had a bad 870, try to get past it. I had a bad blind date once, I got past it and learned something about the French Quarter.

[Kmar40]

I'm a Mossberg guy but this 870 stuff is a laugher.

A gentle shuck,BTW, will often glitch a pump. They were meant to be racked with vigor.

Yep. I see very few at the range who exhibit any skill with a pump. I can't say that I've seen a problem from any pump gun that wasn't shooter induced or the result of add on equipment (or improper installation thereof). I have my doubts about how many times some of the people on this board actually spend time at the range.

Failure to remove the factory preservative and otherwise follow the directions in the manual.

I see this at the local range ALL THE TIME. Not just shotguns. Any type of gun. They show up at the range with the gun still in the box. Many think "cleaning" the gun equals passing a patch down the bore once or twice.

I prefer "The irony of the Information Age is to allow idiots to be experts"

Some of these guys think that posting 4000 times is equivalent to knowing something. Of course, there is no counter on the side for number of rounds fired or actually level of firearms proficiency achieved.

Says the guy who rabidly defends the Norinco 870 knock-offs.

Funny that the biggest 870 detractors seem to be the guys who bought that $150 Chinese cast potmetal junk (complete heat shield, a bayonet lug, and a breaching shark tooth muzzle device).

[rc601962]

That is a hoot. You define a person's knowledge and/or skill with firearms based on the number of internet posts. Stop. Your killing me.

The guy has a strange fetish with 870s, posts ridiculous challenges, and refuses to acknowledge objective truth. He admitted 25% of the people have a problem with the recent garbage Remington is putting out. Case closed. He lost the debate.

That is funny though. Number of posts = Knowledge of guns.

[OkieCruffler]

No, I believe I'm equating knowledge of guns with years of experience with the poster. I'm equating number of posts with level of trolling. There are several people on here with 10's of thousands of posts who have never said anything of value. But don't worry, you'll catch up.

[Kmar40]

bwahahahahaha.

Expert Marksmanship Medal for Ownage.

[mathman]

I'd take my chances with the 870; my chances of getting a good one vs. one with a rough chamber would be no worse than a Mossberg or Benelli with some kind of issue.

Well, I certainly am not a troll as I have been on these boards for a little more than five years now. But this above statement is absolute garbage...there is now way in heck that a Benelli has the same chance of having an issue as a Remington 870 Express. A Mossberg...maybe, but a Benelli...please, you're getting a little ridiculous now. I have owned five Benellis and all have been absolutely flawless...FLAWLESS. You know...for the most part you get what you pay for.

I realize that most 870 Expresses are fine...but a higher percentage of them are having some type of issue out of the box these days. I'm not going to defend anyone who has posted in this thread, but when you get a gun that doesn't function well, it is very frustrating. And I don't think people like being told that it's their fault...or that they are not knowledgeable about how to use a gun.

I have had legitimate problems with my express...and I can assure you that I am quite a good shotgunner (been shooting shotguns for over 31 years now). Just try to listen to other people and give good advice. It doesn't do any good to tell people that they are "full of it". (not in those words, but that was the general gist of it)

[noyes]

No, I believe I'm equating knowledge of guns with years of experience with the poster. I'm equating number of posts with level of trolling. There are several people on here with 10's of thousands of posts who have never said anything of value. But don't worry, you'll catch up.

+1 to that

Special link for that 1
http://www.jsf.mil/terms.htm

[JNewell]

I'm a Mossberg guy but this 870 stuff is a laugher.

I'm a Remington guy after personal and personally observed bad experiences with Mossberg, but I don't repeatedly p!ss and cr@p on Mossberg, in part because considered over the whole production my cr@pping, and the cr@pping I read here and elsewhere, tend to be laughers as well. There's too much bitter arguing about good guns in fora like this.

Wrong. Three to one is a 25% failure rate. That is horrible. No decent manufacturer puts out products that fail 25% of the time. Your own words prove my point. Thanks for the admission of failure.

Ummm, he said reports, not guns, and since a huge number of those reports track back to a small number of individuals, and since happy people don't ten to post about their non-existent problems, the math is probably more like one in 3,000 or 30,000 rather than one in three.

[Deerhunter]

OkieCruffler

There are several people on here with 10's of thousands of posts who have never said anything of value. But don't worry, you'll catch up.

That is funny.


I have to agree that most people that have issues will jump up and down and make a post somewhere that they had those issues. Very rare that someone that doesn't have a problem will post something.

I also find it funny that someone is going to jump on here (being a member for less than 3 months) and start attacking someone for their OPINIONS. I have been a member for over a year and have over 120 posts. I only try to add input and try not to attack anyone else personally even if I don't agree with what they have to say.

I read a post where a guy was talking about making shots with a bow on deer over 100 yards. Now I highly doubt the the guy does that with any consitancy but I can't go shoot with the guy and see it so I left it go. Just think before you start attacking people and telling they have no credibility. Also we have all been at a gunshop, range or gun show and have seen how people are with their level of ability. So it is very possible that people are having problems with their 870s because they have no idea what they are doing with them.

[MAX100]

So it is very possible that people are having problems with their 870s because they have no idea what they are doing with them.

Operator error has nothing to do with shells sticking in the chamber. That's the main problem you keep seeing over and over. In many cases it's easy to fix but not always. It cost the consumer and dealer time and money. Remington could easily take care of this QC problem if they wanted to. Do some research and you will see all of the post on this problem started showing on the forums in the last few years. Stop making excuses and demand a better product. What's wrong with demanding a better product. I guarantee you if you bought a new 870 and it had this problem you would see things a little different. It's very aggravating.


GC

[Deerhunter]

Max

I hear you. I would be mad. I have just not had any issues with mine. 2 3/4 in shells or 3 in shells.

I am just saying that cleaning your guns and taking care of them, along with knowing something about them helps also. Too many people buy guns and never take the time to learn anything about them.

[Dave McC]

Rc, let me remind you that among the other rules you agreed to when you signed up here and on THR was one about Ad Hominem attacks.

Calling someone a Zombie and saying they've "Drunk the Koolaid", well, had it been directed at another member, you'd be on very thin ice now or possibly have been shown the door.

But, I can handle a little invective and animosity. It IS getting old so how about sticking to the issues?

And, the main issue's whether or not Expresses endemically suffer from cycling problems unrelated to operator error, cleaning shortfalls or bad ammo.

I'm not impugning anyone's veracity. I'm saying I have not seen the problems others report.

For the record, I wasn't asked to be the Mod here and on both THRs because I am a 'puter geek who owns a shotgun. I am a shotgunner who can barely navigate around cyberspace.

Besides the hundreds of COs I taught, there's maybe 30 TFL/THR members, past and present, that have shared a range with me. I doubt you'll find any that think my opinions are based on anything but real world experience and empty hulls.

[Maromero]

Any takers yet?

[TimT]

My Express (older) has no issues.

My brother-in-law's Express (less that a year old) has no issues.

Just thought I would take the time to make a positive report. No one seems to do that - we only hear about the problem children.

[oneounceload]

Dave- I have no dog in this fight, as I prefer O/U and SxS - but I think you're more correct than wrong.

If someone does a great job for someone, they will tell, on average, 4 friends. If that person does a lousy job, they will, on average, tell 100 friends. I think the analogy works on these gun forums as well.

JMO, YMMV

[BigJimP]

I have no dog in this fight either...but time and again ... I applaud Dave's civility and patience in making his remarks !

Believe him / or not .....it seems to me he is making a sound argument - and he's willing to fix or buy a gun if you have a problem with it and he can't fix it - at, in my opinion, a fair price for a gun you say doesn't work. I don't understand the animosity .... If you have an 870 with an issue - go see the man ...what would you have to lose ?

[ScottRiqui]

If you have an 870 with an issue - go see the man ...what would you have to lose ?

$200 for a plane ticket plus a rental car? (And I'm just down in Virginia)

[JNewell]

I hesitate to jump in here, but...oh well...

I am honestly baffled, totally mystified, by the Remington hatred. *Some* Expresses have issues. That's true of every manufacturer's product, whether it's a gun, a flashlight, a toaster or an automobile. Staying with firearms, there are much more notorious examples that never seemed to generate the vitriol and venom that people like to dish out on the Express. Consider, for example, the Ruger .45LC single actions, which for years and years (and maybe still) left the factory with throats that were (1) badly undersized and (2) varied significantly (in a single cylinder) in size. The result was horrible accuracy. People just shrugged and either lived with it or sent their cylinders out to people like CAS to be reamed. That situation was much more common than the Express "rough chamber" problem...I don't remember reading all the hatred...