Caracal Pistol - Page 5

Edmond · October 27, 2010, 10:31 AM

I did test it like you do and I was surprised, no failure. But someone accused me of making these pistol unreliable by not knowing how to handle a pistol LOL

Sturmgewehre · October 27, 2010, 01:01 PM

If it's not on YouTube, it didn't happen.

This is the internet, I love all the advice I get on how to shoot from people that bought their first handgun last week.

Value advice and criticisms given to you on the internet based upon what you paid for it. Hehe.

Edmond · October 27, 2010, 07:54 PM

Edmond · October 29, 2010, 04:12 AM

I have done more testing with a F and Geco, Sellier & Bellot and reloaded ammunition, 115, 124 and 147 grains.

The trigger is way better than it was right out of the box. I only had one failure to lock slide with empty magazine.

I still have the cases hitting me in the head 5 times for 300 rounds fired.
The shooter next booth told me it was flying just above my head, I tried to have him take pictures but I prefered to let him try the Caracal than my EOS.
Once more verified, an expert's camera does not make a skilled photographer especially indoors.

Don Glock · May 9, 2011, 10:57 PM

i know this thread is old, but i've been following these pistols for several years now.

just wanted to know, have there been any updates? reliably, availability, etc...

Edmond · May 10, 2011, 03:29 AM

The batch delivered to France (primarily planned for US market has markings show) has been recalled after someone linked to a representative seating at European Parliament has experienced failures like I did encounter.

Case closed for me. I will not distribute one of these pistols anymore after I experienced the CYA behaviour (and I keep my comment civil). I deplore it. Once bugs ironed out, these are good pistols but at this level of price, it is not acceptable to have such an unprofessional response.

Syntax360 · May 10, 2011, 12:31 PM

I can't speak for what happened in France, but my US import gun has been flawless after over a thousand rounds without cleaning. If you want to see my review and what they look like dirty, it's all here for your review.

10mm4ever · May 10, 2011, 06:22 PM

Wilhelm Bubits was the original designer of the Glock and was with the company from its very inception until 1997 when he went to Steyr. He designed the Steyr M and later the Caracal. He is without question the most influential pistol designer of the past 30 years and most folks have never even heard of him. His contract with the UAE ended months ago and he's presently working on a carbine.

publius · May 10, 2011, 09:21 PM

I think it's a good looking pistol. If it is going to fly it will need to be noticeably less expensive that the current comparable offerings from the major manufacturers. Kind of a gimmicky name after an African cat and definitely an unknown. The only reason i can see someone buying one over a Glock or XD is if it is a much better deal.

spodwo · May 10, 2011, 09:41 PM

$550.00 is the going price that I am seeing....that is comparable to the Glock Gen 4s. But I don't think it has to be a better deal. It just has to be the same price point and a better pistol to some.

In just looking at some of the reviews - it has advantages certainly over both the Glock and SA. The sights don't look very appealing though to me but I could get use to them.

We shall see - they are just starting to hit here.

Edmond · May 11, 2011, 05:16 AM

Syntax, good review. They are good pistols, don't mistake me. But here the price is 700 €.

10mm, there are a lot of urban legends about Mr Bubits, Glock and Steyr. He is not the designer of the Glock aka Pistole 80 for one thing.

Don Glock · May 11, 2011, 05:38 AM

bulbets was a glock designer. there were a few, of course.

back on topic: the caracal is certainly coming off as a steamy pile of crap at this point. pretty disappointing.

seems like the design is solid, it's just a matter of parts quality.

Edmond · May 11, 2011, 07:46 AM

Far to be a pile of crap. The only real design mistake was the rear sight. Those reliability issues are due to the low barrel centerline that made the extractor and the feeding ramp impossible to design another way and it appears that these issues have been solved.

10mm4ever · May 11, 2011, 08:21 AM

Just because Gastons name is on it doesnt mean he designed it anymore than Samuel Colt designed the 1911. Gaston is a curtain rod designer by trade and Bubits is a small arms designer by trade. I have no doubt that Gaston may have had some input, but there's a reason he's done absolutely nothing before or since the "Glock pistol". The patent is in Gastons name of course, no different than when a designer is contracted by a company and any and all design work becomes the property of that co., same thing. I'd consider the Steyr and the Caracal as the "real" 3rd and 4th gen. Glocks since they were all the brainchild of the same designer regardless of whether "Glock", "Steyr" or "Caracal" are rollmarked on the slide.

peacefulgary · May 11, 2011, 11:54 AM

What exactly does the Caracal offer over the Glock?

MGMorden · May 11, 2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

What exactly does the Caracal offer over the Glock?

Fewer parts and a lower bore axis. Plus, in my eyes the Caracal is more pleasant to look at.

The reliability problems are certainly putting a hamper on my enthusiasm though. If not for that, then I really did want one of these. Afterall, if they had turned out to be as reliable, you could have just as easily asked what the Glock offered over it?

As it stands, right now if I buy another polymer pistol, the Ruger SR9 is looking more attractive these days than the Caracal.

Syntax360 · May 11, 2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10mm4ever

Just because Gastons name is on it doesnt mean he designed it anymore than Samuel Colt designed the 1911.

True, but Wilhelm Bubits himself is a member over at Steyr Club - we gave him his own sub-forum. He has personally distanced himself from claims like the one you are making. Bubits worked at Glock for a number of years, but to label him the father of the G[XX] series pistols is giving him undue acclaim.

You are absolutely right about Bubits leaving Caracal to pursue his own project. He hinted about a carbine over at SteyrClub, but he was purposefully vague. I'm quite excited to see what he comes up with next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peacefulgary

What exactly does the Caracal offer over the Glock?

Everything MGMorden pointed out, and more importantly, a phenomenal trigger. Seriously - it is light-years better than any other polymer gun out there. But if you are one of those guys that grew up on Glocks, this might not matter - you may already have something that works and may not be interested in trying something new. No gun can be all things to all people, and that's why variety is a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGMorden

The reliability problems are certainly putting a hamper on my enthusiasm though.

This is a very personal thing, but I do not believe we have heard from a large enough sample of users to really conclude anything. Edmond has probably been responsible for providing more information on this gun than any other source - he's posted his results far and wide on nearly every gun board that gets any traffic. He acknowledges that its a good gun, but the batch he imported to France had some trouble. All solid data worthy of consideration.

What we do not have data on is the batch that Waffen Werks brought to the US. We have a few owners over at SteyrClub, I own one, and a good friend of mine owns one - this constitutes a very small sample of guns brought into the US, but so far we haven't had any reports of trouble. I could care less if Caracal didn't have the bugs worked out when they brought the gun into foreign countries - I care about the batch that hit US shores, and as far as I can tell, these guns have been rock solid.

That said, WW/CaracalUSA has not had much success in promoting this gun yet, so very few people have heard about them. A few gun rag writers and bloggers have gotten to try them out, and you can put however much faith you like in those reports. There are not a lot of reports out there and we simply do not know if the few guys posting reviews (myself included) scored exceptional guns, or if all of the guns brought into this country are of similar outstanding quality. Time will tell...

I am Steyr fanboy #1, but I'll be the first to admit that Steyr-Mannlicher screwed the pooch with the M and M-A1 - they utterly failed at promoting the gun, and there were too many reliability issues centered around the gun for it to have had a shot at any real success domestically. I really hope Caracal learned from their mistakes and that this time Bubits' latest design is the real deal.

10mm4ever · May 11, 2011, 03:15 PM

I have no doubt that Bubits designed the Glock. I'd also assume that an "agreement" of sorts was drawn up by Gastons attorney when Bubits left the co., limiting what information Bubits is allowed to disclose in order to avoid a big lawsuit. Bubits simply isnt going to put his head in a noose simply for bragging rights(especially to strangers on the internet). A man with a prior history of designing curtain rods and shovels is going to need some "professional asssistance" if he's about to embark on funding the design of something he knows little to nothing about and that's exactly what Bubits was there for, from the beginning.

predecessor · May 12, 2011, 02:14 AM

Quote:

As it stands, right now if I buy another polymer pistol, the Ruger SR9 is looking more attractive these days than the Caracal.

Gotta chime in. Hey, I give Ruger it's due and think they make some fine revolvers. But the SR9? Trust me. You will like the Caracal much better than an SR9.

I've only had the opportunity to put 50 rounds through a Caracal C -- Here's a quick take:

1) Only 50 rounds, but no reliability issues to speak of. I doubt there will be any more issues from this pistol than any other, because...

2) You can tell it's well made. I like Bersa and other mainstream clone manufacturers. But there is a reason these type of clones sell for $300-$400 -- they just aren't as high on the quality scale. When you look at a Caracal, you can see why they are priced at $550 - it's not a great price, but it's a fair one.

3) In my opinion, it could be my favorite of the striker fired pistols (keeping the Walther P99 AS out of the comparison because of the trigger). Definitely more comfortable than a Glock and does not point like one (good, if you shoot any other pistols regularly). I prefer the trigger to the Glock as well. Don't get me started on XD's, but thankfully the only similarity the Caracal shares is a cocked indicator and ambi-mag release.

4) It fits very nicely in my hand. Definitely felt recoil seemed lighter.

5) I like variety. I realize a lot of people won't play with a Caracal because it's not the most popular kid at the party, but I think it a worthy tool and fun to boot.

I'll put some more rounds though her this weekend to see how she continues to perform.

Don Glock · May 12, 2011, 02:59 AM

^^where did you buy yours? i haven't seen any for sale. thanx

MGMorden · May 12, 2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Gotta chime in. Hey, I give Ruger it's due and think they make some fine revolvers. But the SR9? Trust me. You will like the Caracal much better than an SR9.

We shall see. I've fired 150 rounds through a rental SR9 and absolutely loved the gun. Ergonomics, trigger, and accuracy were phenomenal. 150 rounds is a bit light to judge reliability on (particularly on a range rental that has likely been pretty thoroughly broken in), but I had no problems there.

The Caracal looks great on paper, but I haven't gotten my hands on one yet. There is a Caracal shoot in Tennessee next weekend though that I am signed up for - if I actually make it out to that (I'm waffling between that and another conflicting event I want to attend) then I'll have a basis for comparison then.

RioGrande481 · June 1, 2011, 04:11 AM

I think I will see if I can find this pistol here in Utah. It looks interesting. I wonder if they might have a loaner to take and show off at the local ranges??

Rob Pincus · October 1, 2011, 01:39 PM

Resurrecting this old thread again... I have two Caracal F's in my course this week and they are performing very well. This is my first look at these guns and I LIKE.
Video Here:
Caracal F 9x21

-RJP

predecessor · October 1, 2011, 03:49 PM

Quote:

This is my first look at these guns and I LIKE.

Me too. The Caracal C fits my hands better than the F and it's currently my favorite striker fired pistol. Primarily because I shoot it faster and more accurately than other pistols in it's class. It's a great design and is very well built. Stop on by the Caracal Pistol Forum when you get a chance Rob and give us a review!

spodwo · October 1, 2011, 04:27 PM

My local gunshop got a distributor that carried these but the distributor is OUT of them...which I don't understand as I see these on two or three websites. I want one but I kind of promised I would buy it from him.

I want the "F" - Full size. Gunbroker has them for $500.00....

I want!

October 27, 2010, 01:01 PM	#102
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	If it's not on YouTube, it didn't happen. This is the internet, I love all the advice I get on how to shoot from people that bought their first handgun last week. Value advice and criticisms given to you on the internet based upon what you paid for it. Hehe. __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia

May 10, 2011, 03:29 AM	#106
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	The batch delivered to France (primarily planned for US market has markings show) has been recalled after someone linked to a representative seating at European Parliament has experienced failures like I did encounter. Case closed for me. I will not distribute one of these pistols anymore after I experienced the CYA behaviour (and I keep my comment civil). I deplore it. Once bugs ironed out, these are good pistols but at this level of price, it is not acceptable to have such an unprofessional response. Last edited by Edmond; May 11, 2011 at 05:13 AM.

October 1, 2011, 01:39 PM	#123
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Resurrecting this old thread again... I have two Caracal F's in my course this week and they are performing very well. This is my first look at these guns and I LIKE. Video Here: Caracal F 9x21 -RJP __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

October 27, 2010, 10:31 AM	#101
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	I did test it like you do and I was surprised, no failure. But someone accused me of making these pistol unreliable by not knowing how to handle a pistol LOL

October 27, 2010, 07:54 PM	#103
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120

October 29, 2010, 04:12 AM	#104
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	I have done more testing with a F and Geco, Sellier & Bellot and reloaded ammunition, 115, 124 and 147 grains. The trigger is way better than it was right out of the box. I only had one failure to lock slide with empty magazine. I still have the cases hitting me in the head 5 times for 300 rounds fired. The shooter next booth told me it was flying just above my head, I tried to have him take pictures but I prefered to let him try the Caracal than my EOS. Once more verified, an expert's camera does not make a skilled photographer especially indoors.

May 9, 2011, 10:57 PM	#105
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	i know this thread is old, but i've been following these pistols for several years now. just wanted to know, have there been any updates? reliably, availability, etc...

May 10, 2011, 12:31 PM	#107
Syntax360 Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2006 Location: Grand Prairie, TX Posts: 694	I can't speak for what happened in France, but my US import gun has been flawless after over a thousand rounds without cleaning. If you want to see my review and what they look like dirty, it's all here for your review.

May 10, 2011, 06:22 PM	#108
10mm4ever Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2005 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 808	Wilhelm Bubits was the original designer of the Glock and was with the company from its very inception until 1997 when he went to Steyr. He designed the Steyr M and later the Caracal. He is without question the most influential pistol designer of the past 30 years and most folks have never even heard of him. His contract with the UAE ended months ago and he's presently working on a carbine.

May 10, 2011, 09:21 PM	#109
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	I think it's a good looking pistol. If it is going to fly it will need to be noticeably less expensive that the current comparable offerings from the major manufacturers. Kind of a gimmicky name after an African cat and definitely an unknown. The only reason i can see someone buying one over a Glock or XD is if it is a much better deal.

May 10, 2011, 09:41 PM	#110
spodwo Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 839	$550.00 is the going price that I am seeing....that is comparable to the Glock Gen 4s. But I don't think it has to be a better deal. It just has to be the same price point and a better pistol to some. In just looking at some of the reviews - it has advantages certainly over both the Glock and SA. The sights don't look very appealing though to me but I could get use to them. We shall see - they are just starting to hit here.

May 11, 2011, 05:16 AM	#111
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	Syntax, good review. They are good pistols, don't mistake me. But here the price is 700 €. 10mm, there are a lot of urban legends about Mr Bubits, Glock and Steyr. He is not the designer of the Glock aka Pistole 80 for one thing.

May 11, 2011, 05:38 AM	#112
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	bulbets was a glock designer. there were a few, of course. back on topic: the caracal is certainly coming off as a steamy pile of crap at this point. pretty disappointing. seems like the design is solid, it's just a matter of parts quality.

May 11, 2011, 07:46 AM	#113
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	Far to be a pile of crap. The only real design mistake was the rear sight. Those reliability issues are due to the low barrel centerline that made the extractor and the feeding ramp impossible to design another way and it appears that these issues have been solved.

May 11, 2011, 08:21 AM	#114
10mm4ever Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2005 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 808	Just because Gastons name is on it doesnt mean he designed it anymore than Samuel Colt designed the 1911. Gaston is a curtain rod designer by trade and Bubits is a small arms designer by trade. I have no doubt that Gaston may have had some input, but there's a reason he's done absolutely nothing before or since the "Glock pistol". The patent is in Gastons name of course, no different than when a designer is contracted by a company and any and all design work becomes the property of that co., same thing. I'd consider the Steyr and the Caracal as the "real" 3rd and 4th gen. Glocks since they were all the brainchild of the same designer regardless of whether "Glock", "Steyr" or "Caracal" are rollmarked on the slide.

May 11, 2011, 11:54 AM	#115
peacefulgary Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 714	What exactly does the Caracal offer over the Glock?

May 11, 2011, 03:15 PM	#118
10mm4ever Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2005 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 808	I have no doubt that Bubits designed the Glock. I'd also assume that an "agreement" of sorts was drawn up by Gastons attorney when Bubits left the co., limiting what information Bubits is allowed to disclose in order to avoid a big lawsuit. Bubits simply isnt going to put his head in a noose simply for bragging rights(especially to strangers on the internet). A man with a prior history of designing curtain rods and shovels is going to need some "professional asssistance" if he's about to embark on funding the design of something he knows little to nothing about and that's exactly what Bubits was there for, from the beginning.

May 12, 2011, 02:59 AM	#120
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	^^where did you buy yours? i haven't seen any for sale. thanx

June 1, 2011, 04:11 AM	#122
RioGrande481 Junior Member Join Date: June 1, 2011 Posts: 2	I think I will see if I can find this pistol here in Utah. It looks interesting. I wonder if they might have a loaner to take and show off at the local ranges??

October 1, 2011, 04:27 PM	#125
spodwo Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 839	My local gunshop got a distributor that carried these but the distributor is OUT of them...which I don't understand as I see these on two or three websites. I want one but I kind of promised I would buy it from him. I want the "F" - Full size. Gunbroker has them for $500.00.... I want!