Why 8 bullets simply isnt enough... - Page 5

Jermtheory · December 12, 2008, 06:37 PM

The Op should have seen this mess coming,but i'll go a step further.

You shouldnt need a gang of home invaders to realize 8 rounds is too little.

Some of the most highly trained professionals on the planet often miss numerous times in a life threatening situation.

Take a look at LEO shooting stats for example(not necessarily the pros i mentioned).The accuracy even at almost contact ranges becomes abysmal.Many who are far more qualified(both in training and experience) than your average LEO,still find it difficult to hit their target when their life is on the line.

I suppose the average Firing Line poster is the exception here though.So lets assume you wont miss...

You shoot to stop a threat and until the threat is stopped.You dont shoot..wait to see if the threat has stopped...shoot again...wait...shoot...

I personally dont understand how a threat can be stopped and you can recognize that fact without firing firing at least a few rounds to begin with.In other words...Even if you destroy the heart itself with the first round,you wouldnt even be aware that the threat had ended until after firing multiple rounds.Unless of course you're taking a break/pause between each round to see how they react.

Finally,it can often take multiple rounds,even when well placed,to stop a determined attacker.Short of hitting brain/brain stem,an attacker may continue to be a danger for 10-15 seconds regardless of your shot placement or caliber(see FBI study).

Taking all of this into account.

I wouldnt say that 8 rounds isnt enough,but its leaving yourself with a very thin margin of error.Against even a single determined and armed attacker.

Alot of people like to talk about the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight...and they want to rely on their attacker having the average response(" they'll run anyway" etc)...

but they dont want to admit that their response may be more average than they would like.

Apone · December 12, 2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

I did type a very long intelligent response, but I don't think this deserves it.

ROFL! I think the OP must live in a state where carrying extra magazines is illegal.

David Armstrong · December 12, 2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

It ain't the same thing. One freak bank robbing isn't the same as one or two "regular" murders and scores of rapes.

EXACTLY! It aint the same thing. Small communities often get disproportionate representation because 1 incident might double their percentages but still leave a very small number. I recognize what you are trying to say, but by virtually every standard measure crime is still primarily an urban problem.

David Armstrong · December 12, 2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

I do miss the days tho that all i had to do is put custom grips on my mod 19 to be thought of as a handgun expert, as now all you have to do is get online . LOL .

QFT!

elrod · December 12, 2008, 07:24 PM

Gecko45, is that you, dear? You didn't put any dents in the tactical wheelbarrow, did you dear?

stantonizm · December 12, 2008, 08:10 PM

For protection against large groups of meth-crazed, serial killers there is only one way to go.

It also double as an excellent woods defense weapon for large herds of grizzly bears.
Just make sure you get the tactical version.

ActivShootr · December 12, 2008, 08:40 PM

DFTT

FireForged · December 12, 2008, 08:48 PM

The whole idea isnt to deal with mobs of attackers.. Its to protect yourself againt what is common in a violent attack... Mobs are not the norm.

1 attacker 86% of the time

vox rationis · December 12, 2008, 11:14 PM

LOL

...do they make a compact version?

Brit · December 13, 2008, 05:41 AM

Lots of reasons to argue, every other post is one person saying others are wrong? But what on earth is wrong about carrying, as I do, a Glock 19 with a full capacity of 16 rounds? If you don't use all 16 in a single assailant confrontation, the extra rounds are a good thing.

Covering your bets with a Glock17 magazine on the off side is a plus.

As has already been said, the chance of a three assailant attack against a person is very remote, but it could happen, and remember "more is better, always" the extra rounds do not need any more attention than 8.

nate45 · December 13, 2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brit

what on earth is wrong about carrying, as I do, a Glock 19 with a full capacity of 16 rounds? If you don't use all 16 in a single assailant confrontation, the extra rounds are a good thing.

There is not anything wrong with it, thats not why people were posting the posts they did, it was all the fallacies and far fetched hypotheticals that were in the OP.

For example...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnH1963

8 shots is enough if you are up against just one person, but not enough for more. There is something to be said about "spray and prey". Sometimes its the only method to keep heads down while you make your strategic retreat preventing the hostiles from firing back.

Now if you can read that and keep a straight face and see the logic in that thinking then, oh well.

Or mull these statements over...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnH1963

Your first 3-5 shots will probably miss. No target is ever stationary and when you produce your weapon then the target will start moving in a tactical manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnH1963

Although spraying isnt the safest for nearby civilians, I believe its a method that will keep you alive.

Is that why you carry a 16 round mag Brit, so you can do some 'spraying' to keep you alive? Come on lets get real the whole OP reads like a joke.

U.S.SFC_RET · December 13, 2008, 07:49 AM

I recommend that you conduct "tons" of training. The more time and energy spent on these boards "hacking" it out with the experts the less you are spending on the range.

Accuracy is not as important as you think so don't worry about it too much.

Learn a couple of drills.
1. Point shooting is the big one I stress. Why? because the BG gets the drop on you. You don't have time for Isosoclese or whatever stance. You draw a bead, chances are you are already shot.
2. Learn the zipper method of shooting. From the crotch all the way up to the head, go to slide lock with the pistol.
3. Learn how to move while shooting and move fast. You can learn to shoot while moving with a two handed grip. The BG most likely will not track you and shoot behind and where you were.
4. Train to clear and reload with dummy rounds. it is part and parcel with confidence you need with that weapon. if you can't do it naturally then learn to do it very naturally. this includes the function check. Any weapon platform you own and not just a pistol.
4. Train until you get sick of training and then train some more. your goal is to be able to do it at all times. Why? Because you will lock up under pressure. Not fire that gun as you intended. Training and putting those skills into rehearsing continually until you are doing it week after week. Drills it into your head. In the middle of your head. The part that takes over when panic sets in. You need to be able to the things you want to do without locking up or performing poorly period.
I have seen some pretty lackluster pistol work at ranges and there is no way anyone can expect performance under pressure.
I strongly recommend you learn how to shoot single handed both right and then left handed.
The big question? Are you practicing your draw enough if at all?

Accuracy counts but with a pistol accuracy is the torso in a pistol fight. They are usually up close and too darn personal anyway.

My philosophy concerning firearms.
A pistol keeps a criminal off your person.
A shotgun keeps him out of your house.
A rifle keeps him off of your property.

pelican · December 13, 2008, 09:43 AM

Good advice from U.S. SFC RET, that I imagine is based on real world experience.

Brian Pfleuger · December 13, 2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Alot of people like to talk about the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight...

All we really need to know is 2 things: the actual number of rounds fired on average and the standard deviation of those samples. Simply add 2 standard deviations to the average and you've got the number that should cover 97% of the incidents. (If my memory of statistics is correct, also assuming that the samples fall along a mostly standard bell-curve, which might be quite an assumption)

I'd guess 16 is probably pretty close to that number which means that 8 is plenty if you carry an extra mag.

Also, let's keep it in context, you know "real". For the vast majority of us so involved in this critically important discussion the actual number we will need, ever, is 0. So here goes the "Oh Yeah! Why do you even bother to carry then? Huh? Huh?" argument.

Hawg · December 13, 2008, 10:35 AM

16 rounds in a .45 ACP would be too big and bulky. I'll keep my 7+1 thank you very much.

Sam06 · December 13, 2008, 10:45 AM

3 guys attacking you? If you are worried about that start doing Drills like the El Presidente drill. I think 8 rounds are enough because by the time you start your reload all 3 guys should be shot at least twice. If you are worried about crazed herds of Meth-heads and Zombies attacking you get the flame thrower. The price of gas is going down and it might not be a bad option

ActivShootr · December 13, 2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

If you are worried about crazed herds of Meth-heads and Zombies attacking you get the flame thrower. The price of gas is going down and it might not be a bad option

Jermtheory · December 13, 2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

All we really need to know is 2 things: the actual number of rounds fired on average and the standard deviation of those samples. Simply add 2 standard deviations to the average and you've got the number that should cover 97% of the incidents. (If my memory of statistics is correct, also assuming that the samples fall along a mostly standard bell-curve, which might be quite an assumption)

I think you missed the point,which was...

"but they dont want to admit that their response may be more average than they would like."

Alot of people always seem to count on the other guy following "the norm" and the situation following "the norm"...But they think that they'll rise above it all and do things that even the best have a alot of difficulty with.

Quote:

I'd guess 16 is probably pretty close to that number which means that 8 is plenty if you carry an extra mag.

Assuming for arguments sake..

If you're willing to open yourself up to all of the variables and opportunities for murphy to work his magic with a reload...sure.

Reloading under extreme stress can be just as problematic as drawing a weapon and putting rounds into an attacker.The simple fact that you will be in the middle of a life & death encounter with an empty weapon(for any ammount of time) is enough to make it less than ideal IMO.

Only for the vast majority of mortals obviously(even those with extensive training).

Quote:

Also, let's keep it in context, you know "real". For the vast majority of us so involved in this critically important discussion the actual number we will need, ever, is 0.So here goes the "Oh Yeah! Why do you even bother to carry then? Huh? Huh?" argument.

Dismiss it all you'd like("

")...but if you're simply playing the odds its a legitimate question/challenge.

Whatever you're comfortable with is what you should carry.I just feel alot of folks are basing what they're comfortable with on misconceptions(usually of how both they and a threat may react when/if that time comes).I think its highly likely that they will be far less effective than they would have thought.Its also less likely but very plausible that an attacker may do things never thought possible...like soaking up rounds and still coming/firing/etc(again,regardless of caliber/round or shot placment).

skoro · December 13, 2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Many confrontations that occur nowadays happen with more then 1 hostile. There are usually 2 to 3 hostile characters. Some will flee when they see your 1911 while others will stay to fight until you are taken out.

In that case, everybody gets one before anybody gets two. Gotta be fair, ya know.

Brian Pfleuger · December 13, 2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Alot of people always seem to count on the other guy following "the norm"

That's the whole point of adding the 2 standard deviations. It takes the probability from "norm" to extreme statistical improbability.

Quote:

If you're willing to open yourself up to all of the variables...

That could be the standard answer in any given discussion. If we play on those rules the only safe action would be a Tommy gun with a couple extra drums, a flak jacket and a squad of Marines for back-up.

Quote:

Dismiss it all you'd like...

I'm not being dismissive at all. I'm trying for a little context. Simply and honestly put, the VAST majority of all the people strategizing and theorizing on this board will NEVER EVER in their entire lives draw their weapons "in anger." We can argue what happens if your attacked by a dozen rabid wolves until we're old and grey but has it ever happened?

Socrates · December 13, 2008, 03:35 PM

Move to Kali. The government has decided, despite the presence of gangs that out number LEO 5-10 to one, that citizens only need 10 rounds. Let politicians that live in glass houses with armed guards tell you what you need to be safe.:barf:

Also, you can't get a carry permit...
Home defense? Know your backstop, know your attack angles, and pick a firearm you shoot well, and are comfortable with. I don't believe in selecting one gun for home defense, and, if I need another, I just pick it up.

Multiple attackers? Not fun. Been there, done that. The motives of multiple attackers are often driven by drugs and alcohol, and, their reactions are NOT predictable, so stop trying. I'd carry a mac 10 if it was legal....

Creature · December 13, 2008, 03:45 PM

I confidently carry 5-shot snubby or a 8+1 shot pistol in this land of roving bandits and gangs of cut-throats...

Brian Pfleuger · December 13, 2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

I confidently carry 5-shot snubby or a 8+1 shot pistol in this land of roving bandits and gangs of cut-throats...

Clearly, your confidence is based on a lack of understanding of the threat you face...

Jermtheory · December 13, 2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

We can argue what happens if your attacked by a dozen rabid wolves...

Or one attacker who doesnt know the rules.

Quote:

That's the whole point of adding the 2 standard deviations. It takes the probability from "norm" to extreme statistical improbability.

Again,not the real point i was making that got quoted but...ok.

Apone · December 13, 2008, 05:13 PM

It's much too late to point this out, but we could have tried to educate the OP rather than jumping all over him, myself included.

To the OP: If you would like to discuss topics and get information, it is more effective to ask questions rather than make broad, sweeping statements, which seem to incite people to defend their philosophies . You can include nearly the same content, but you will get a much more positive response from the membership on TFL as there are a lot of knowledgeable people here that will readily share the lessons they have learned through the years.

December 12, 2008, 06:37 PM	#101
Jermtheory Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2007 Posts: 1,283	The Op should have seen this mess coming,but i'll go a step further. You shouldnt need a gang of home invaders to realize 8 rounds is too little. Some of the most highly trained professionals on the planet often miss numerous times in a life threatening situation. Take a look at LEO shooting stats for example(not necessarily the pros i mentioned).The accuracy even at almost contact ranges becomes abysmal.Many who are far more qualified(both in training and experience) than your average LEO,still find it difficult to hit their target when their life is on the line. I suppose the average Firing Line poster is the exception here though.So lets assume you wont miss... You shoot to stop a threat and until the threat is stopped.You dont shoot..wait to see if the threat has stopped...shoot again...wait...shoot... I personally dont understand how a threat can be stopped and you can recognize that fact without firing firing at least a few rounds to begin with.In other words...Even if you destroy the heart itself with the first round,you wouldnt even be aware that the threat had ended until after firing multiple rounds.Unless of course you're taking a break/pause between each round to see how they react. Finally,it can often take multiple rounds,even when well placed,to stop a determined attacker.Short of hitting brain/brain stem,an attacker may continue to be a danger for 10-15 seconds regardless of your shot placement or caliber(see FBI study). Taking all of this into account. I wouldnt say that 8 rounds isnt enough,but its leaving yourself with a very thin margin of error.Against even a single determined and armed attacker. Alot of people like to talk about the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight...and they want to rely on their attacker having the average response(" they'll run anyway" etc)... but they dont want to admit that their response may be more average than they would like. Last edited by Jermtheory; December 12, 2008 at 06:46 PM.

December 12, 2008, 08:40 PM	#107
ActivShootr Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2007 Posts: 1,040	A little late for this but... DFTT

December 12, 2008, 08:48 PM	#108
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,075	The whole idea isnt to deal with mobs of attackers.. Its to protect yourself againt what is common in a violent attack... Mobs are not the norm. 1 attacker 86% of the time __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

December 13, 2008, 05:41 AM	#110
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	more is better, always! Lots of reasons to argue, every other post is one person saying others are wrong? But what on earth is wrong about carrying, as I do, a Glock 19 with a full capacity of 16 rounds? If you don't use all 16 in a single assailant confrontation, the extra rounds are a good thing. Covering your bets with a Glock17 magazine on the off side is a plus. As has already been said, the chance of a three assailant attack against a person is very remote, but it could happen, and remember "more is better, always" the extra rounds do not need any more attention than 8.

December 13, 2008, 09:43 AM	#113
pelican Member Join Date: November 11, 2008 Posts: 39	Good advice from U.S. SFC RET, that I imagine is based on real world experience. Last edited by pelican; December 13, 2008 at 10:08 AM.

December 12, 2008, 07:24 PM	#105
elrod Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2007 Location: Heart of the heart of Dixie Posts: 234	Gecko45, is that you, dear? You didn't put any dents in the tactical wheelbarrow, did you dear?

December 12, 2008, 08:10 PM	#106
stantonizm Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2005 Location: West Virginia Posts: 148	For protection against large groups of meth-crazed, serial killers there is only one way to go. It also double as an excellent woods defense weapon for large herds of grizzly bears. Just make sure you get the tactical version.

December 12, 2008, 11:14 PM	#109
vox rationis Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1,855	LOL ...do they make a compact version?

December 13, 2008, 07:49 AM	#112
U.S.SFC_RET Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Location: The Old line State Posts: 282	I recommend that you conduct "tons" of training. The more time and energy spent on these boards "hacking" it out with the experts the less you are spending on the range. Accuracy is not as important as you think so don't worry about it too much. Learn a couple of drills. 1. Point shooting is the big one I stress. Why? because the BG gets the drop on you. You don't have time for Isosoclese or whatever stance. You draw a bead, chances are you are already shot. 2. Learn the zipper method of shooting. From the crotch all the way up to the head, go to slide lock with the pistol. 3. Learn how to move while shooting and move fast. You can learn to shoot while moving with a two handed grip. The BG most likely will not track you and shoot behind and where you were. 4. Train to clear and reload with dummy rounds. it is part and parcel with confidence you need with that weapon. if you can't do it naturally then learn to do it very naturally. this includes the function check. Any weapon platform you own and not just a pistol. 4. Train until you get sick of training and then train some more. your goal is to be able to do it at all times. Why? Because you will lock up under pressure. Not fire that gun as you intended. Training and putting those skills into rehearsing continually until you are doing it week after week. Drills it into your head. In the middle of your head. The part that takes over when panic sets in. You need to be able to the things you want to do without locking up or performing poorly period. I have seen some pretty lackluster pistol work at ranges and there is no way anyone can expect performance under pressure. I strongly recommend you learn how to shoot single handed both right and then left handed. The big question? Are you practicing your draw enough if at all? Accuracy counts but with a pistol accuracy is the torso in a pistol fight. They are usually up close and too darn personal anyway. My philosophy concerning firearms. A pistol keeps a criminal off your person. A shotgun keeps him out of your house. A rifle keeps him off of your property.

December 13, 2008, 10:35 AM	#115
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,214	16 rounds in a .45 ACP would be too big and bulky. I'll keep my 7+1 thank you very much.

December 13, 2008, 10:45 AM	#116
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	3 guys attacking you? If you are worried about that start doing Drills like the El Presidente drill. I think 8 rounds are enough because by the time you start your reload all 3 guys should be shot at least twice. If you are worried about crazed herds of Meth-heads and Zombies attacking you get the flame thrower. The price of gas is going down and it might not be a bad option

December 13, 2008, 03:35 PM	#121
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Move to Kali. The government has decided, despite the presence of gangs that out number LEO 5-10 to one, that citizens only need 10 rounds. Let politicians that live in glass houses with armed guards tell you what you need to be safe.:barf: Also, you can't get a carry permit... Home defense? Know your backstop, know your attack angles, and pick a firearm you shoot well, and are comfortable with. I don't believe in selecting one gun for home defense, and, if I need another, I just pick it up. Multiple attackers? Not fun. Been there, done that. The motives of multiple attackers are often driven by drugs and alcohol, and, their reactions are NOT predictable, so stop trying. I'd carry a mac 10 if it was legal....

December 13, 2008, 03:45 PM	#122
Creature Junior member Join Date: April 8, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,769	I confidently carry 5-shot snubby or a 8+1 shot pistol in this land of roving bandits and gangs of cut-throats...

December 13, 2008, 05:13 PM	#125
Apone Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2008 Location: Kingwood, TX Posts: 269	It's much too late to point this out, but we could have tried to educate the OP rather than jumping all over him, myself included. To the OP: If you would like to discuss topics and get information, it is more effective to ask questions rather than make broad, sweeping statements, which seem to incite people to defend their philosophies . You can include nearly the same content, but you will get a much more positive response from the membership on TFL as there are a lot of knowledgeable people here that will readily share the lessons they have learned through the years.