Would you like a Browning 1911 .32 ACP?

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Model12Win

.32 ACP shells are too expensive for what they are. The .380s and better yet the 9mm Maks hit a lot harder and guess what? They're less expensive.

There is NO point to a .32 ACP IMHO.

Are you saying that there's no point to .32 ACP in a 1911 or no point to .32 ACP at all?

[Cheapshooter]

Are you saying that there's no point to .32 ACP in a 1911 or no point to .32 ACP at all?

No point at all might be the opinion of some. Considering al the 380 acp mouseguns nearly identical in size to those chambered in 32 acp.
However, for those who are really recoil sensitive, and for some reason don't want to learn to get over it, the 32 acp has appeal.
I do have both. An early generation LCP in 380 which I carry every day. Also a Kel-Tec P32 I bought just for grins that never gets carried.

[kannonk]

"The best evidence is the fact that they are no longer in general usage among police and military forces."

Would anyone have any statistics from Europe on .32 ACP fatalities or failure to incapacitate?

"Some people want to say that any caliber other than a 9, 40, or 45 is worthless. All calibers can and have been deadly."

I think some people assumed I was being irresponsible by claiming the .32 ACP might be a "safer" round at the firing range. But even though the .32 ACP is not the same as a .380 ACP, I saw a video on Youtube where someone shot a guy going through his door with a machete. I think I heard two shots but the guy just laid there whaling from the pain. I believe he was shot in the torso area but he didn't die. See, this guy was pretty much "incapacitated" but he did not die. (By the way the guy who shot him ended up in prison even though it looked like a clear case of self-defense but whatever...) See, if someone did shoot someone in the chest one or two times with a .32 ACP they might be incapacitated buy may survive. So, there's that.

"I know a woman that spent 5 years in prison because she loaned someone a 22 short and the other girl killed a man with it."

Seems to me some prosecutors in the U.S. are overly zealous including that weird plea deal system where they absolutely want someone jailed with less time spent in court to save money.

"Ok, but this almost imperceptible difference in recoil is why I dislike shooting a P-3AT, and don't mind shooting a P-32. Also why I find the 1903 pocket hammer-less to be almost like a .22, and way more pleasant than my BERSA .380's."

Thank you for your feedback on .32 ACP handguns. See, this doesn't seem to be a pointless thread after all. Do you care to explain the difference in perceived loudness between the .22, .32 ACP and .380 ACP?

"Its just a dream folks, not ever going to happen..."

If you believe in the dream... just kidding. Actually, you may be right. It very well may be a dream that may never happen. I wanted to talk about this though because sometimes I think it's just a matter of perception. I mean the .380 ACP was almost gone years ago yet it was resurrected. So there may eventually be a glimmer of hope for the .32 ACP. (Or, maybe some manufacturer may come out with a revised casing to eliminate the so-called rim lock problem.)

[OldMarksman]

I mean the .380 ACP was almost gone years ago yet it was resurrected.

The .380 had been a police and military round, but it lest favor big-time.

It's "resurrection" was surely due to the change in laws permitting concealed carry, and the small size of .380 pistols.

So there may eventually be a glimmer of hope for the .32 ACP.

Why?

(Or, maybe some manufacturer may come out with a revised casing to eliminate the so-called rim lock problem.)

Why would anyone undertake such a project?

[DaleA]

kannonk--I've admitted this is a 'provocative' question and it has generated a lot of discussion.

I've also tried to answer two of your questions.

I'm just curious as to how much shooting you've done. Could you tell us your background?

I've asked before and I won't bug you by asking again and you CERTAINLY have the right to say 'none of your business' but I am interested in what shooting experience has led you to your opinions.

[kannonk]

" Go shoot a bunch of guns a bunch of times. You'll gain a lot of insight (and have a lot of fun) doing this."

I'll confess I only shot air guns years ago and only shot a .22 revolver once. I recently started reading out of curiosity because I kind of miss shooting. I mean I find it kind of relaxing to focus on a target, you can kind of forget the rest of life while you're at it. I did go along the lines a little of what I've read from other people's comments though. Even though I haven't shot a number of real guns, I did notice comments from people who had severe arthritis, metal plates in their hands and male partners talking about their female partners. Some said their female partners don't even like the recoil from a .380 ACP or .38 Special. So, the .32 ACP being the only one they'd bother with. Besides, there's one state I read about that bans any conceal carry with anything less then a .32 ACP (no .22 lr allowed). From the comments I read so far though I guess it would be useful to not only compare different calibers but also brands. I'd like to try .22 lr, .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Special and *maybe* 9mm. It will be a while before I try these, of course for reasons that would take a while to discuss (uncompleted bicycle projects still in boxes etc.).

"I have one and it's an absolute pleasure to shoot. It's my most accurate handgun."

These are the kinds of comments that make me want a .32 ACP.

"...may not correspond very well to its real effectiveness."

Admitedly, I may not be the expert in this field but I can imagine that lower recoil (and an accurate gun) could make a significant difference in placement.

[DaleA]

What's the rental situation where you are?

One of my local ranges had a Holiday Special, shoot twelve different guns---seven 9mm and five .22LR. One 9mm and one .22LR have suppressors attached. All for $50 and they supplied the ammunition.

It was fun.

[kannonk]

"it would seem that all that's needed would be to sleeve the barrel of a 1911-380 down to .32 ACP and the job's done."

What's involved in that? I mean if barrels are usually threaded, will your sleeve already be threaded? Is the only thing you need to do is add a sleeve to use .32 ACP ammo in the Browning 1911-380?

" I've shot both the 1911-22 and the 1911-380 and they just don't feel like "real guns.""

Can you say why they don't feel like "real guns"? Which guns feel like "real guns"?

[Cheapshooter]

What's involved in that? I mean if barrels are usually threaded, will your sleeve already be threaded? Is the only thing you need to do is add a sleeve to use .32 ACP ammo in the Browning 1911-380?

Not in a 1911, or most center fire pistols bigger than 32, or 380.
Earlier designs of those smaller calibers used a straight blowback, fixed barrel design. The 1911, and subsequently the 1911-380 use the John Browning (have you heard of him?) tilting barrel design.
A 380 barrel could be sleved I imagine, but I am also sure there would be feed ramp, magazine, and recoil spring issues to deal with.

[kannonk]

"There is NO point to a .32 ACP IMHO."

If the ammo was the same price if it becomes more popular, would you still say there's no point to the .32 ACP? I've read a number of messages saying people find the .32 ACP handguns they've shot to be pleasant to shoot. I've even seen a competition pistol that is chambered for .22 lr but also includes a conversion kit to .32 ACP.

"you posed a provocative question."

What was my provocative question?

[DaleA]

What was my provocative question?

I KNOW! It's been so long and there's been so many twists and turns most don't know but waaaaaaayyyyy back when SOMEBODY asked.

Would you like a Browning 1911 .32 ACP?

Hint: It was you.

So...what's the gun rental situation in your area?

[kannonk]

"So...what's the gun rental situation in your area?"

OK, I was still trying to answer questions from the third page but if you insist, I said I'm Canadian. This means I have to take two courses just to handle a handgun and I said in a previous message that my situation is complicated. I want to pay to see a dentist and complete two bicycle projects still in boxes so on and so forth. (Not exactly sure why you were that interested. I already said it would take a while to explain...)

[kozak6]

Do you find 9mm recoil to be particularly excessive?

[mavracer]

Not exactly sure why you were that interested.

Because it's very obvious from this thread and others that you don't know what you don't know and stuff like felt recoil is very subjective.
As to your original question I have no interest in a Browning 1911 in 32, there are so many other classic original 32s that interest me more.

[kannonk]

"Because it's very obvious from this thread and others that you don't know what you don't know and stuff like felt recoil is very subjective.
As to your original question I have no interest in a Browning 1911 in 32, there are so many other classic original 32s that interest me more.

I know people said I made some naive comments. However, I read enough messages on this message board to know that some have either severe arthritis, metal plates in their hands, or women who may feel the recoil more than others. Whether that would be applicable to me is kind of besides the point. From what I read on this site, there does appear to be a market for the .32 ACP. I wish some manufacturers would get together to alter the .32 ACP cartridge to eliminate rim lock, round out the bullet diameter to exactly 8.00mm and call it the 8mm ACP.

As a matter of fact, I saw some messages saying their wives/daugthers prefer carrying a .32 revolver. I took the time to find .32 revolvers and find them even more scarce than .32 ACP pistols (oddly enough). It seems some manufacturers have decided to reduce the number of calibers they've made guns for.
By the way, which classic guns in .32 ACP would you like to see again?

[kannonk]

Does anyone know why there's a peculiar muzzle energy number for the Herter's .32 ACP? Cabelas http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoot...Tz_stype%3DGNU

It shows 176 ft/lbs of energy while other manufacturers like Federal, Aguila and PPU have either 128 or 129 ft/lbs of energy.

[Cheapshooter]

Not peculiar at all if you understand ballistics.
ME, kinetic energy is the result of mass (bullet weight) and velocity in a formula explained here.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...gy-calculator/
The Herters round states a heavier bullet at a higher speed.

[Bill DeShivs]

This is like a car wreck!

[Cheapshooter]

This is like a car wreck!

Is that smaller, and less destructive than a train wreck?
(See what I did there?)

[kannonk]

"Because the resultant cartridge would be nearly identical in capabilities to .380 ACP, and there isn't much market demand for a cartridge to fill this tiny niche."

I don't want to sound argumentative but I have the impression the .32 ACP cartridge modified to eliminate rim lock with bullet diameter rounded out to 8mm would be more similar to a .32 ACP, not a .380 ACP.

"A couple of such cartridges already exist: the 7.65 Parabellum aka .30 Luger—the parent cartridge of 9mm Luger—and the 7.62x25 Tokarev."

Thank you for that feedback but these cartridges look altered like the bottom bulges out then tapers down to the bullet area. The .327 Federal Magnum is a straight cartridge.

"What you talking 'bout, Willis?
There's no such problem with the Beretta 81, and I don't see where anyone has brought it up here."

The Firing Line https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=18 quote from that post: "...There are some Beretta Series 81 specific tips in the following linked thread. Take note of what I wrote about the frame-battering problem at high round counts. (There's a link to another thread in that post.)

"Using such (bunny fart) loads in an auto pistol usually requires carefully tuning the recoil spring weight to function properly with a given load."

Thanks for the info.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by kannonk

Does anyone know why there's a peculiar muzzle energy number for the Herter's .32 ACP?... It shows 176 ft/lbs of energy while other manufacturers like Federal, Aguila and PPU have either 128 or 129 ft/lbs of energy.

1. It is made by S&B and this company tends to load their ammo hot. FWIW American ammo companies are notorious for loading .32 ACP on the soft side. Aguila is Mexican, but they may be doing the same thing.
2. Ballistic claims are just that—claims. There is no industry-wide consensus standard for testing ballistics of most cartridges, and differing barrel lengths and barrel profiles can yield very different results.

Originally Posted by carguychris

...the resultant cartridge would be nearly identical in capabilities to .380 ACP, and there isn't much market demand for a cartridge to fill this tiny niche.

You're failing to account for the underlying premise that most folks view .32 ACP as sub-marginal as a defensive cartridge, and therefore wouldn't be interested in a modified version of it.

Rim lock is not a major problem in a pistol that has good mag springs and has been loaded properly. You'll hear rim lock stories about some older pistols, but keep in mind that many of those shooters are using >50-year-old mag springs, which oftentimes can't be replaced because nobody makes them, due to lack of market demand.

Originally Posted by carguychris

A couple of such cartridges already exist: the 7.65 Parabellum aka .30 Luger—the parent cartridge of 9mm Luger—and the 7.62x25 Tokarev.

Who cares if 7.65 Para and 7.62x25 look altered?

BTW this shape is known as a "bottleneck." It's common in rifle cartridges, but not so much in pistol cartridges, since pistols generally don't have the barrel length to allow large powder loads to really work their magic.

The important factors are that these cartridges are designed to work in an auto pistol and are easily adapted to existing designs. (7.65 Para conversions of 9mm pistols are reportedly commonplace in countries where "military" calibers are outlawed, e.g. Mexico, and Italy until recently as I understand it.)

Making .327 work in an autoloader would be quite difficult and would probably require a dedicated platform, and it simply won't be physically possible to get as much magazine capacity in an equal-size pistol.

Originally Posted by kannonk

I might be concerned about would be the metal warping inside after several thousand rounds as someone here said.

Battering and warping are two very different things. Considering that I wrote the excerpt you copied, and that you didn't link to the source thread, perhaps this is a clue that your assertion was hard to understand.

BTW the key thing to understand about the problem is that it occurs at very high round counts, as in many thousands of rounds fired. MANY pistols develop problems under these conditions, and the Series 81 problem IMHO isn't that serious in comparison, as it's easily repairable; other alloy-frame types tend to crack frames, which usually results in the pistol being junked. I consider the Series 81 pistol to be excellent designs overall.

[mavracer]

I don't want to sound argumentative but I have the impression the .32 ACP cartridge modified to eliminate rim lock with bullet diameter rounded out to 8mm would be more similar to a .32 ACP, not a .380 ACP.

First off he said "capabilities" and there really isn't that much difference between a 32 acp and a 380 that sticking something in between is affecting said capabilities.
As CGC pointed out European 32 acp is often loaded closer to CIP maximum pressure and as such closes the gap between 32 and 380 in both performance and recoil.
As far as new classic 32s it's a pipe dream the Colt 1903 re-release shows how expensive it would be to have a accurate copy, besides my original has caricature that a new one just wont have.

[Cheapshooter]

It's also a pipe dream, maybe a bong dream, that any ammunition maker would redesign an already bottom tier cartridge by changing the rim to resolve a problem some have. Then increase the bullet diameter by a couple thousandths of an inch. For absolutely no reason at all.
If it were something they could market, they already have a better place to start. The 8MM Nambu from WWII Japan. A true 32 caliber with a bullet diameter of .320. But it would be an 8.13 MM.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/8×22mm_Nambu

[ThomasT]

I'll confess I only shot air guns years ago and only shot a .22 revolver once. I recently started reading out of curiosity because I kind of miss shooting. I mean I find it kind of relaxing to focus on a target, you can kind of forget the rest of life while you're at it. I did go along the lines a little of what I've read from other people's comments though. Even though I haven't shot a number of real guns, I did notice comments from people who had severe arthritis, metal plates in their hands and male partners talking about their female partners. Some said their female partners don't even like the recoil from a .380 ACP or .38 Special. So, the .32 ACP being the only one they'd bother with.

So am I to assume you have never shot a 32 or 380? But you made the statement that a 32 would be better to accidently shoot yourself with than a 380? And you think a 32 would be popular because of all the people with arthritis and metal plates in their hands? I don't know a single person with a plate in their hand or anyone with arthritis that shoots guns. And I agree about the recoil from a mouse gun 380. They can be unpleasant. I would rather shoot a hot loaded snub 38. My buddy has one of the PA-63 in 9mm Mak. That SOB is brutal to shoot.

Have you ever heard of the gun writer J.B.Wood? He made the point many years ago that the 32 and 380 were two peas in a pod. What one would do the other would do. He also developed the 32 NAA round made from a 380 necked down to 32. So I trust his opinion.

Besides, there's one state I read about that bans any conceal carry with anything less then a .32 ACP (no .22 lr allowed). From the comments I read so far though I guess it would be useful to not only compare different calibers but also brands. I'd like to try .22 lr, .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Special and *maybe* 9mm. It will be a while before I try these, of course for reasons that would take a while to discuss (uncompleted bicycle projects still in boxes etc.).

Sounds like you need some experience before you make assumptions about what people want. Bicycle projects? How old are you?

[Cheapshooter]

Bicycle projects? How old are you?

Think everybody has been waiting for that question!