Game over for the 40 S&W. Say it ain't so!

[Lohman446]

First: .40 is not going away. There are already too many firearms out there chambered for it for the ammunition manufacturers to ignore. Because firearm manufacturers have, in many cases, decided that the difference between a 9MM and .40 needs only be bore size and magazines they will continue to make them - its too "easy" of a market to give up on.

With that said I think the .40 suffers from being a "jack of all trades and master of none"

In the large pocket pistols (Sig P938, Glock 43, and the like) 9MM is already pushing the edges of size, stress on the firearm, and manageable recoil. It is not likely .40 is going to find a spot there.

In the 9MMs converted to .40, at least in my experience, recoil on the .40 is noticeable to the point of being undesirable to some people.

In purpose built firearms.... well now the .40 is no longer competing with the 9MM its competing with the 10MM (and losing).

It has its niche. More power than a 9MM, more capacity and less recoil than a .45, less recoil than full blown 10MM (though light 10MM is available). The problem becomes in trying to figure out what exactly that niche is really useful for.

[Pilot]

More choices are always good. I never embraced the .40 as 9MM and .45ACP seem to work for me, and I didn't see the necessity to add another caliber to reload or shoot. However, I have no problem with the .40, and think it is a fine cartridge. I'd prefer a 10MM to give me more flexibility as I could download it or max it out as needed.

[DHart]

Lohman446 said:
It has its niche. More power than a 9MM, more capacity and less recoil than a .45, less recoil than full blown 10MM (though light 10MM is available). The problem becomes in trying to figure out what exactly that niche is really useful for.

I agree that with very small guns, 9 is a better choice of caliber. And 40 does have its niche in larger platforms. I have no problem, however, in figuring out what exactly that niche is really useful for. For me, mid-size and full-size pistols like the M&P40, M&P40C, P320 Full size and Compact make great home, RV, and car pistols. And, they are my everyday carry guns. Higher capacity and less recoil than .45, and more power than 9.

Forty offers the ideal combination of capacity, power, and controllability (with a mid-size or full-size pistol) for my needs.

[Guv]

How is the 40 losing to the 10mm? Ammo sales, selection of guns available, price of ammo, popularity?

[Lohman446]

I did not mean to suggest that .40 actually was losing to 10MM in regards to availability or sales (though how much of that is based on 9MM platforms that the .40 has been shoehorned into?)

I intended to point out that .40 is best served in full size purpose built firearm (rather than converted 9MMs) and once we put those caveats on it the 10MM is capable of doing everything a .40 does and more.

My argument is not against the .40 for what it is as much as the argument is that what a .40 does better than ____________ (9MM, .45, or 10MM) is done better by _________________ (9MM, .45, or 10MM). You have to fill in the blanks according to whatever aspect we are discussing.

Jack of all trades / Master of none

That obviously works for some people

[dean1818]

It aint so..........


Even with the improvement in 9MM, the 40 STILL does significantly better
than 9mm and 45 in an area thats important to me

Penetration through thin steel and glass (Think Cars)

On a soft target, 9, 40, 45, with proper shot, will do fine, not that much difference

[Ruger45LC]

The .40 is probably my favorite and for what one would realistically use a semi auto pistol for, it's got a lot going for it as it can do pretty much everything quite well.

From a factory ammo perspective it's got good options and certainly works well as long as you put the bullet in the right place.

From a reloading perspective it can be loaded from mild to wild, and by that I mean it can be loaded to powder puff levels up to 10mm levels.

The power you get in the size of the weapon, the .40 is tough to beat. I do like the .45 as well but generally the .45 uses larger framed guns. The 10mm is the oddball to me, large frame gun with poor ammo selection. I can take a G20 10mm and run a hot 10mm 180gr to 1350 fps or a G22 .40 and run a hot .40 180gr to 1250 fps...but have a lighter gun, smaller frame, use less powder and have better factory options at the end of the day. The 10mm isn't worth it over the .40.

[DHart]

I intended to point out that .40 is best served in full size purpose built firearm (rather than converted 9MMs) and once we put those caveats on it the 10MM is capable of doing everything a .40 does and more.

Jack of all trades / Master of none

That obviously works for some people

.40S&W is indeed great with pistols designed for it (not a 9mm platform converted to 40, like Glock 22 and 23).

The problem I have with 10mm is that my preferred platforms/pistols are not chambered in it and the extra power that it offers isn't generally welcome for my applications.

Very few pistol models are chambered in 10mm. Also, 10mm practice ammo is harder to find locally and is pretty expensive.

My favorite platforms right now are the M&P40 and Sig P320 40. Neither of those pistols are chambered in 10mm. But if they were, I'd have one in 10mm, though I may still prefer to carry the .40S&W.

I do shoot 10mm on occasion, and have a Colt Delta Elite and a Glock 29, but neither of those come close to offering the qualities that I really love about the M&P40 and P320. A Glock 20 comes a bit closer in doing so, but still no where near as nice to shoot (in my view) nor as comfortable in the hand as an M&P40 or a P320. So, for me, .40S&W truly is the sweet spot and 10mm doesn't fill that spot nearly as well.

As far as your comment of "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" that's a catchy phrase, but not quite appropriate as it could be loosely applied to many different choices, caliber aside. And really, for many jobs, a Jack-of-Several Trades is a much better choice than a Master of only ONE, anyway.

Why, you might ask? Every firearm you can name is a compromise of one or several factors. Too much compromise in any one aspect may be not so desireable.

Often, the best choice is a happy combination of several important factors, with minimal compromise of any of them. For me, with .40S&W, that happy combination is a nice blend of: good capacity, good power, & good controllability.

[manta49]

Penetration through thin steel and glass (Think Cars)

Do you think 9MM will not Penetration through thin steel and glass. ?

[DHart]

Nine can puncture car doors and glass. Heck, a sharp knife can easily puncture car steel these days.

But .40S&W, due to heavier bullet weights, more kinetic energy/momentum can bust through heavy bone and other barriers better than lighter weight 9mm can. 40 is also likely a better choice for defense against potentially deadly animals.

[pblanc]

I think the pistol makes a considerable difference. Forty caliber can be very pleasant to shoot out of a medium to full-size all-metal pistol such as the SIG Sauer P226 or 229, or the Beretta/Stoeger Cougar 8040.

Some polymer-framed pistols such as the SIG P320 and FN FNS 40 also handle it very well. Some subcompact pistols not so much, IMO.

As for barrier penetration, many pistols chambered for .40 S&W allow you to shoot 357 SIG out of the same gun with a barrel swap, so that is an option. a 125 grain, 9mm .355" diameter projectile traveling at over 1500+ fps is more likely to penetrate barriers than a 124 grain .355 diameter projectile traveling at around 1200 fps.

[manta49]

But .40S&W, due to heavier bullet weights, more kinetic energy/momentum can bust through heavy bone and other barriers better than lighter weight 9mm can. 40 is also likely a better choice for defense against potentially deadly animals.

Is the 9MM not usually criticized for over penetration trough the human body bone and all, ?. The .40 has no significant advantage over the 9MM IMO, and like the .45 is only really popular in America. From what i read even in America civilians and police are starting to realizes that and are going back to 9MM.

[agtman]

The problem I have with 10mm is that my preferred platforms/pistols are not chambered in it and the extra power that it offers isn't generally welcome for my applications. * * *My favorite platforms right now are the M&P40 and Sig P320 40. Neither of those pistols are chambered in 10mm. But if they were, I'd have one in 10mm, though I may still prefer to carry the .40S&W.

I doubt the P320 frame could handle the full-throttle 10mm. That's why Sig came out with the stainless steel 10mm P220 in 4 flavors - 3 SAO and 1 traditional DA/SA.

[Lohman446]

Agreed with the above. I doubt I would enjoy a 10MM in a 40 platform anymore than I enjoy a 40 in a 9MM platform

[t4terrific]

40 isn't dead. I have three every morning.

[saleen322]

There are many 40s out there so they are not going away. The 9mms always were popular in LE applications and they are getting more so. Also being in LE for over 30 years, in every comparison I saw between 9mm and 40 in range testing with officers selected at random, the scores with the 9s are always higher than with the 40. Administrators just favor the 9 because there is one less civil service headache that can be avoided.

[DHart]

Is the 9MM not usually criticized for over penetration trough the human body bone and all, ?. The .40 has no significant advantage over the 9MM IMO, and like the .45 is only really popular in America. From what i read even in America civilians and police are starting to realizes that and are going back to 9MM

Depends on the bullet type. FMJ penetrate deeply, of course.

JHP that are designed to expand reliably penetrate less so. But heavier weight JHPs of like design to lighter weight JHPs tend to have a greater ability to bust through heavy bone, simply by virtue of weight.

9mm is a decent defense caliber, more improved of late with better bullet designs. It is light recoiling (because it has less power), is easier for a wide range of agency personnel to "handle", and cheaper in cost for an agency to supply to the troops. Those are positive factors. But that doesn't mean that 9mm is the "best choice" among the alternatives. It is simply one relatively inexpensive, easy-to-shoot option among several excellent choices.

9mm is a good choice for small pistols, where heavier calibers are more difficult to handle and necessitate low capacity.

But, with mid-size and full-size pistols that are well-designed for the caliber (M&P40, M&P40C, P320, P226, P229, FN40, etc.) forty caliber is a very comfortable, enjoyable caliber which offers a harder hitting load than 9mm does and still has relatively high capacity! There's a lot to love about THAT.

[DHart]

Agreed with the above. I doubt I would enjoy a 10MM in a 40 platform anymore than I enjoy a 40 in a 9MM platform

Absolutely, appropriate platform for caliber is key. I don't like 40 in 9mm platforms and I don't think I'd like 10mm in a 40 platform either.

Where things can get a bit crazy is when manufacturers offer small single stack pistols chambered in 40 and 45... Good Lord. It can be made to work, but controllability and capacity really suffer in those small, skinny platforms.

Smart money is 9mm in the small pistols, for decent control and capacity, and use 40 and 45 for the larger platforms that can handle those calibers with ease and pure enjoyment.

Just because you can buy a really small pistol chambered in 40 or 45 doesn't mean that it's a great idea! Let's employ our common sense, folks. (Gun manufacturers won't like that, though.)

[Guv]

I think the 10mm and 40 both have there place. If you prefer full size 1911/220 style pistols then the 10mm might be your choice. If you are after a slightly smaller package with maybe a little more capacity then the 40 might fit your need. Or maybe you could have the best of both worlds and have a 10 and a 40!

[agtman]

I think the 10mm and 40 both have there place. If you prefer full size 1911/220 style pistols then the 10mm might be your choice. If you are after a slightly smaller package with maybe a little more capacity then the 40 might fit your need.

Actually, not too many years ago, S.A. offered one of its small 1911s in .40 - think "Officer's model" size. IIRC, it held like 6+1.

It was a so-so seller, until a few hard-core 10mm dudenals on one of the 10mm-boards (could've been GT's 10-Ring) started posting pics and details on how they "converted" this S.A. micro-.40 to 10mm. Most had their 'smith do the work, like ... reaming out the chamber to 10mm-specs, and then beefing-up various items like the springs (Wolff's) and, I think, the extractor with Wilson's BP version. I believe they also installed a fitted EGW firing pin stop, and there was mention of a higher-poundage mainspring.

The magazines weren't an issue as I recall, since S.A. used essentially a dual 10mm/.40 1911 mags, but it wouldn't been an issue anyway since dedicated 10mm 1911 mags are abundant (Wilson, CMC, Tripp's).

No doubt it was a novelty - sort of a custom 10mm pocket-rocket, but it was very concealable, being flat and small, not unlike Colt's Defender & New Agent series of Officer .45s. Never heard any reliability complaints from those who converted these .40 guns to a real-deal 10mms.

[Big Shrek]

Actually, not too many years ago, S.A. offered one of its small 1911s in .40 - think "Officer's model" size. IIRC, it held like 6+1.

It was a so-so seller, until a few hard-core 10mm dudenals on one of the 10mm-boards (could've been GT's 10-Ring) started posting pics and details on how they "converted" this S.A. micro-.40 to 10mm. Most had their 'smith do the work, like ... reaming out the chamber to 10mm-specs, and then beefing-up various items like the springs (Wolff's) and, I think, the extractor with Wilson's BP version. I believe they also installed a fitted EGW firing pin stop, and there was mention of a higher-poundage mainspring.

The magazines weren't an issue as I recall, since S.A. used essentially a dual 10mm/.40 1911 mags, but it wouldn't been an issue anyway since dedicated 10mm 1911 mags are abundant (Wilson, CMC, Tripp's).

No doubt it was a novelty - sort of a custom 10mm pocket-rocket, but it was very concealable, being flat and small, not unlike Colt's Defender & New Agent series of Officer .45s. Never heard any reliability complaints from those who converted these .40 guns to a real-deal 10mms.

And some intrepid members of the S&W forums have spent time
converting the CS40's & other 3rd Gen 40xx series pistols to 10mm...
although, most are now shying away from using the alloy framed ones,
strictly for longevity's sake.

[ronl]

I transitioned from a .40 Sig 229 to a CZ-75 9and a Para P-14 .45. Simple fact is I can shoot them more accurately than I could the 229. To me, that's what it is really all about.

[FM12]

Current issue/carry/duty is Sig 229 in 40 S&W. Pretty tickled. So, there!!

[DHart]

I have ADDED 3 more .40S&W pistols to the fold in the last month.

No, game is NOT over. Forty lives and thrives with a LOT of people and will for many decades to come.

The latest one that I added was due to the incredible super sale at CDNN right now. This will be the second one of these that I have:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/smith-wes...ht-sights.html

[agtman]

Yep, just more evidence of major .40 dumpage.