The .22 pocket pistol the BEST for civilian personal defense?

[Double Naught Spy]

First: We should all agree that the weapon we have with us all the time as a civilian, is senior to the one we don't have when it's needed. A person therefore who decides to carry a firearm full-time will more likely carry a smaller lighter gun more of the time... than the same person will carry a larger heavier gun.

While the gun you have at the time when needed is senior to what you don't have, what folks seem to forget is the one you have may not be very good for self defense.

Folks who carry full time and who are serious about self protection will not cave in to only carrying a tiny pocket pistol most of the time.

I have enjoyed meeting many people over the years at various gun ranges who were giving their small guns a good workout. There is nothing like honing one's skills with 18 rounds out of P32 Kel Tec or 50 rounds out of a NAA Mini Revolver. Many would have targets at long distances like 5 or 7 yards and shoot horribly loose groups with patterns sometimes in excess of 12 or more inches.

There is always post hoc justification for carrying the small guns, shooting very little, and having poor groups. They are "always there" guns. As for shooting very little, my favorite comment is that the guns are designed to be carried a lot, shot a little. No doubt there isn't much wear and tear on a gun that isn't being fired, but just because the gun is supposedly designed to be shot a little isn't a valid justification for not practicing with the gun more or justification that you won't practice more with the gun because it isn't supposed to be shot that much. Which is more important, protecting the gun from wear and tear or practicing enough to protect oneself?

As for the poor shot groups, the response was often something like, "I won't be shooting it that far in real life, so the group size is good enough."

When it comes time to need to defend oneself, chances are we are not going to have the option of picking the time and place. So if you need a gun and all you have is some tiny caliber, your shots need to be exceptional since you won't be getting the benefit of the larger bullet sizes and power from larger caliber handguns whose power is still seen as questionable anyway. Recent events with folks like Mark Wilson and McKown (Tacoma Mall) are fine examples of where shot distances were not up close and personal. Of course, McKown didn't even bother to draw his gun, but he confronted the shooter verbally and the shooter gunned him down from several yards away.

If you carry small, take the time to become proficient with the small gun and the small caliber. It may mean that you wear out a few along the way, but if that is what it takes to make you proficient and you really want to be able to defend yourself well, then you have the added expense.

I have been repeatedly shocked by folks like over on KTOG who have had guns for several years that they carry for self defense through which they have fired less than 500 rounds.

Its only your life, right?

[Jody Hudson]

Good disertation, good points, DNS.

Note: the link in your signature is dead now.

[NFACurious]

I just sat here and read nearly all the posts (sorry i skipped from page 1 to page 3). I've enjoyed most of what i've read. Its neat to see a 5 year long debate.

Now it seems to me this discussion is about the age old debate of bigger equals better and controlled expansion with adequate penetration is the key. (it seems anyways; i'm kinda young in comparison to some here, no offense)

To get the story rolling, I got into guns because of a friend I ment in junior high school. Ever sense we have been debating on everything possible. This Christmas (how ironic) he got a book that was written by a New York "stake out" cop and his opinions on gun fighting. According to the book he personally was in 14 or so gun fights, and his department 252 or somewhere in the near. I have a horrible time recalling exact numbers but those are close. Either way, my friend cited me two quotes that recently changed my opinion on self defense pistols. First was "only two immediate knock down shots i've seen have been a 12 guage slug to the head and a .45 acp shot to the head." (again don't cite me.. relaying what i remeber.) The second was after shooting in BG 11 times in the face with .38 the guy went down. While calling in the description of the guy saying he was mid 30's the bad guy moaned "man.. i'm only 26." Once the ambulance arrived, he walked himself out. All 11 .38s punctured the skin of his face bounced off the bone and carried out. (i'm not knocking the .38 or promoting any other caliber here).

If interested send me a private message and i'll get you the title and author of the book. What was written might not be totally fact but it corresponds with the philosophy I first believed in, and now do again. "A .22 to the tear duct will stop any conflict."

Sorry if my opinions have trampled on anyone elses but my solid belief is shot placement matters more than anything. Even though the BG got hit 11 times in the face with .38 and didn't die, the shock to the head knocked him out. And really, when firing in self defense isn't that all that is required? Shoot to stop, not nessicarily to kill (but thats usually the outcome.)

[nemesis]

Hope is not a viable defense strategy.

[P95loser]

Jody,
You mentioned that you like cci velocitors as well as the quick shocks... I carry a phoenix arms HP22 until I can afford a better pocket pistol, and today have purchased a box of velocitors to carry.
Have you found the velocitors as effective as the quick shocks (I couldn't find quick shocks in my town).

I would like to also know what a tph is.

Also, you should feel encouraged that I used this thread as a major determining factor to start carrying a .22 for self defense.

[Jody Hudson]

The Velocitors are Heavier and Faster but do not have the incredible shock value of the QuikShoks.

However, since your purpose is self defense the Velocitors are excellent. Just remember shot placement becomes far, far, more important with less powerful rounds such as .22. I strongly suggest you practice 5 lightning fast shots into your first target area and two or three immediate shots to your second but more important target area for self defense with the .22.

Based on my sadly extensive experience with predator control of feral cats and dogs - if attacked I suggest you place about 5 fast shots into the center of mass and then two or three immediate follow up shots into the center of Central Nervous System control... in the case of feral dogs and cats this would mean BetweenTheEyes with those last three shots. That still leaves you a couple of shots to follow up with again into the BetweenTheEyes if the attacking animal continues to attack. With the .22 I suggest a LOT of practice using the entire magazine in a couple of seconds to immitate this sort of defensive shooting. IMO 8 shots in two seconds followed by two well aimed shots in the next two would be proper practice... Just my opinion.

Enjoy your HP22, they are a nice little pistol. Buy lots of ammo and practice!!!

Have Fun with your little Baby!

The Walther TPH is a tiny, thin, flat, light, exceedingly accurate .22 pistol that will usually cost in excess of $500 for the recent stainless steel and usually in excess of $750 for blued and probably in excess of $850 for German imports and more for the lighter alloy called Dural which will likely run $1,000 or so. Most often the TPH will take Three to Ten trips to a master gun smith to make it perfect but many people develop a deep love for the tiny, accurate, pistols WHEN they get them working perfectly. There are few gun smiths that work on them and far fewer that do a good job on them.

Walther TPHs are like a Harley Davidson motorcycle... people love them no matter how much they have to work on them and no matter how much they have to pretend they don't see the failures to function.

With a lot of practice and the gunsmithing needed to get one right, you can become exceedingly accurate with a TPH and put the bullets in small targets at, even long distances... amazingly small targets!!!

The threads here can be very informative and I use them to help me make choices as well. Most of us are on a never ending quest to find better and better guns and ammo for our purposes and these threads help us find our next, better, choice.

Enjoy...

[joneb]

this is a long winded thread and I sorry that I don't have the patients to read it allthrough. but for me the .22lr from a semi-auto format is ify, from a revolver the .22lr makes more sence. my cw of choice is the .38 snub given it's inadequacies it is concealable and reliable and with training accurate.in mine I load it with 158gr.+p speer fmj's. but that's just me.

[Jody Hudson]

Why from a revolver? The velocity from a revolver is a bit less due to the loss at the cylinder to barrel gap. Also, the revolver takes up more room in concealed carry, by far in this case.

YUP, bigger calibers are better... but that is outside this discussion you know.

Those hot .38s DO put the little and supposed ineffective .38 in a much better light...

[duroc]

Jody
I have, over the last few years read and re-read this thread. It's longevity is amazing!! And I am just as amazed that so many respondents seemed to take your comments to mean a .22 is best for SD. I understood you to mean, 'anything is better than nothing and a .22 with you is better than a .45Cal at home.' Seems you said that early on.

I carry (w/permit) almost all the time. I am fortunate enough to have most of the guns discussed so far and none is as carry friendly as the TPH. I am in a warm climate so I want something that is truely 'pocketable'.
I have two American TPH's, neither have been worked on (to my knowledge, both bought used but in NIB cond.) I have put at least a thousand rounds through each with zero malfuntions when using CCI Mini-Mag or Quik-Shok. (I can't say that about most other ammo). This is the gun that I have in my pocket. Maybe not the best, I have better, but they don't carry as well.

I agree that a well placed series of shots are needed with a .22 but I don't practice headshots. To much bone and to much opportunity for curved bone (skull and cheek) to deflect the shot. I practive for the throat area. Granted it's half the size of the head but if only one Quik-Shok connects the parties over. (the 'misses' will likely be in the jaw or upper chest) ALL my practice with this gun is point and shoot...no Wilson stance stuff or aiming w/sights....there isn't time in SD. I don't expect to get in a 'firefight' (been there done that) I expect to use my little TPH only when there is no way out.

I know bigger is better. I carry a PPK w/PowerBall ammo in a 'fanny pack when it is appropriate. But the TPH is with me ALL the time....that's what you meant I think. Heck of a good gun!
Thanks to all for the great thread...and another Merry Christmas.
Duroc

[NCHornet]

It sounds like this argument is more about the Quickshot than the 22 cal round. I only read the first page, but this is the jest I got. I do agree with the size of a 22 pocket pistol making it easy to carry all the time, but my NAA Guardian is the same size but in 380 and 32 acp cal, so I will always prefer the larger and heavier bullet vs super ammo. As far as it being a better wund maker than a 357 mag is simply opininon and you know what that is worth. I don't see anybody suggesting our LEO start carrying 22's instead of their duty weapons, I think this notion would be laughed at. I suppose if you are going to carry a 22 the Quickshot would be a good choice for ammo, just as the DPX ammo is a good choice for the 380 acp firearms, but there is no way I am going to buy the 22 quickshot is going to have the same stopping power on humans as the 357 mag. Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it, cabbage or no cabbage!!

[duroc]

NCHornet
Sorry but I should have put a big qualifier on my choice of deep carry guns (I like the TPH). I do not like DAO and all the little pocket guns in bigger Caliber seem to be DAO. I want a gun that's DA/SA and the only pocketable ones I know of are the little TPH and Beretta's. I have both and the Beretta's I have are not reliable feeders with any ammo I've tried. The TPH's I have are. Plus they are thinner and carry better.

If someone came out with a quality little gun in DA/SA in .380 I'd buy one! .25 or .32's, I think, are no better than hyper .22's. I wonder why there aren't any DA/SA .380's avavilable? Am I the only one that prefers this action?
Duroc

[HighValleyRanch]

If someone came out with a quality little gun in DA/SA in .380 I'd buy one!

Doesn't the PPK fit that bill. Small enough for me to carry in pocket all the time. admittedly slightly on the heavy side, but with a good pair of jeans it's fine, and small enough.
I used to carry my Iver johnson TP22 (which is like the TPH), but upgraded to the .380 with the PPK. Just a slightly larger version of the former.

It's DA/SA as you requested.
HVR

[David Armstrong]

I am not at all certain that I understand WHY the Quick-Shock is so amazingly better than calibers bigger and faster.

Enouugh. It is not. Shooting cabbages has absolutely NO relationship to shooting people. Ballistic gel, even with its faults, is the only even semi-valid way to compare, and the Quick-shock doesn't perform that good. It has low penetration, which is the main criteria for success in shooting people.

[duroc]

High Valley Ranch

Thanks for the suggestion.
I have a PPK that is probably my favorite all around handgun but it really fills up my pocket! It's just to big and heavy for all the time carry for me. I walk around in shorts and a T-shirt a lot.
I have a little Kel-tec .380 that is sized fine plus with the built-in clip (like a pocket knife) makes it good to carry. But I can't group good enough with it. Between the heavier .380 recoil in the light gun and the DAO trigger pull, I am all over the place...6 inch groups at best at 21 feet, rapid fire. I think the .380 is marginal enough to still need good placement. I can't do it will a light, little, DAO gun like my Kel-tec.
The PPK is another story. It's a shooter!!! I did a couple of CC courses through our state association. During one two day course we fired 1000 rounds. I used my PPK and ball ammo. I purposely didn't clean the weapon until the course was concluded. It NEVER failed! (except when they had us put a dummy round in the clip to practice clearing the weapon under duress....which is a real challenge with the PPK!!!!).
If yours carry's good for you your lucky, and probabaly not as fat as I am (-;
Mine PPK is in a fanny pack...makes me look like a old tourist )-; maybe I should start wearing wingtips and black socks with my shorts.....nah.
Duroc

[duroc]

NCHornet & D Armstrong
IMHO the Quik-Shok, or any .22, isn't a great self defense round. Cabbages or not. But what it has done is bring the .22 on par with all the ammo I am aware of under .380 cal. (which is marginal for SD but has great new ammo available too) The .22 LR has out preformed the .25 'forever' and now the hyper HP .22's are usually more potent than the .32. This is a result of ammo development of course. There just isn't much being done with the .32. The advantage these centerfires used to have was reliablity but with the new stuff out there the rimfire is on a par in that arena too.

I think anyone who carrys anything smaller than a .380 would do well to look real close at the 'new' .22s...particularly Stinger and Quik-Shok. Until I find a DA/SA .380 small enough for my needs I'll carry my TPH loaded alternately with Quik-Shok then a Stinger....the recoil of these two rounds is identical, so I've created no feeding problem...and shooting accurately in this combination, with double or triple 'taps' as I've been taught, is as good as it gets (IMHO) under .380.

Try a triple tap from a .380 DAO, any of them, Kel-tec, Seacamp, Rohrbaugh, NAA, and if you keep 2 out of three on the target at 7 yards, much less shoot accurately after your first shot, your better than I, and most shooters.
I wish someone would come out with a good DA/SA SMALL .380...did you hear that Bersa???
Bob

[Bill DeShivs]

duroc
You obviously are confusing .22 lr RIFLE ballistics with handgun ballistics, and are seriously wrong.
Merry Christmas.

[duroc]

Bill
I assume you mean I am confused when I say I believe the hyper .22's out preform the .25's and are on par with the .32's, not so? Fill me in please.
Duroc

[Bill DeShivs]

What I mean is that most published velocity figures for the .22lr are from rifle-length barrels. Some figures are for 4"+ lengths. When you start comparing 25 auto (2" bbl.) with a .22 from a 2" bbl., the velocity drops a whole lot. Even from a 4" bbl., I doubt the .22 lr will match the energy figures for .32 and .380.

[duroc]

Bill,
Your point is well taken. I never meant to even imply that a .22 is on par with a .380, of course it's not! I do think the 'hot' .22's are stronger than a .25 and may give most .32's a run, even in shorter barrels. I went to www.handloads.com where they have a neat little "one stop" comparison chart composed of 'actual police data'. The .32 DOES have a much better record than the .22. (The .25 is not so hot!)
My point, poorly made I admit, is the whole package, gun and ammo together. I do not like DAO (that eliminates most small autos) and the gun must be pocket friendly and accurate....those requirements really narrow the field. Not much out there that fits...thus the .22.
Duroc
p.s. I sent you a post through your fantastic web site...thanks for including it!!

[boatbod]

It just so happens that I ran a few different .22LR cartridges over my Pact chrono today. They were all fired from a Beretta 87, which is somewhat similar to a TPH although has 1" more barrel at 3.8" length.

CCI MiniMags round nose - 40gr, purportedly 1235fps
1. 965.9
2. 960.2
3. 942.5
4. 977.2
5. 1002.6
AV: 969.7fps
ES: 60.0fps
ME: 83fpe

CCI Stinger hollow point - 32gr, purportedly 1640fps (well they make a big "bang" anyway)
1. 1154.9
2. 1158.4
3. 1135.1
4. 1132.9
5. 1141.2
AV: 1144.5fps
ES: 25.5fps
ME: 93fpe

So anyway, my point is that these numbers really reinforce Bill's comment that these cartridges don't develop anywhere near the advertised FPS when fired from a short barrel. I guess if I had to use something in .22LR, I'd prefer to have Stingers or better, but even so, its not looking particularly encouraging.

[duroc]

Boatbod,
Did you do any .25's, 32's ? When I checked Winchester's site www.winchester.com they list the .25 EP @ 815fps, 66fpe. The .32 HP @970fps 125fpe. The .25 was shot from a 2" barrel, none given on the .32.
You show #'s after ES & ME, what does that stuff mean?
Is it reasonable to think that since the Stinger, for instance, retained 69.7% of it's perported velocity in the shorter barrel it will also retain that percentage of it's perported energy?
Duroc

[kgpcr]

I will stick with a bigger round than a .22. its better than no gun but why carry a pea shooter? shoot a .40 or something that will get the job done

[Bill DeShivs]

Generally, the high velocity .22 lr develops maximum velocity in a 16" barrel. I suspect the hyper velocity loads need more length than that. Velocity drops drastically at about 4". Boatbod's figures show this. Now think about cutting that 4" length almost in half....
I personally have no qualms about carrying a .22. At one time I even carried a .22 short.
But I do feel it necessary to point out that the .22 lr is usually judged by people looking at velocity tables from an 18-20 inch barrel. In a tiny pistol, it is NOT more powerful than the .380, .32, or most .25 loads.
Merry Christmas.
Bill

[David Armstrong]

But what it has done is bring the .22 on par with all the ammo I am aware of under .380 cal.

Sorry, but you are wrong. In fact, due to limited penetration the Quick-shock is probably LESS effective as a defensive round than many other .22 rounds.

[Jody Hudson]

This thread is getting as white haired as I am... Much time has passed and ammo and guns are available that were not when this thread started. Oh... and all the cabages are dead!

Currently my all the time everywhere choice would be the Keltec P-11 in 9mm, or .40 or .357 sig and Corbon DPX ammo... The P-11 is the same size with any of the three calibers. It is a decided handful and has so much recoil in such a small package that several of the ones I have purchased were bought cheaply because they failed to cycle... a typical problem with too relaxed a grip or too relaxed a wrist...

Duroc, the P-11 would not be a good choice for you, for reasons you have already written.

I try to walk and take pictures well before sunrise and after sunset every day if I can and in uncivilized areas. When out and about and seeking critters to photo, I always carry the P-11 in 9mm with 13 rounds of Corbon DPX and have become accustomed to it always being there... When and if I get my CCW, it will likely be my choice then for more "civilized" areas.