Best concentricity sizing method I have used

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

isn't that pretty much what I said?

No. This implies you have no idea. And are not interested in learning.

How the bolt and extractor hold the case when the bolt is enclosed be it at a angle or parallel to the bore I cannot change and my XRay vision is out for repair so I won't even bother speculating on.

[hounddawg]

lol sure, why worry about what cannot be changed, that's a waste of life

was just cleaning a couple of my rifles from last range session and looking at the bolt how the case interfaced with the bolt face. The extractor would be at 3 o'clock and the ejector at 7 o'clock so when the bolt is opened the case is pushed up and to the right. No idea how much and really don't care since it is what it is and cannot be changed.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

lol sure, why worry about what cannot be changed, that's a waste of life

was just cleaning a couple of my rifles from last range session and looking at the bolt how the case interfaced with the bolt face. The extractor would be at 3 o'clock and the ejector at 7 o'clock so when the bolt is opened the case is pushed up and to the right. No idea how much and really don't care since it is what it is and cannot be changed.

You can remove the ejector.

You can grind off part of the extractor claw a little bit and still be able to get the case pulled out of the chamber.

[Bart B.]

...delete...

[Nathan]

Never heard of sizing with the die loose.

Before the die is set, I leave the lock ring loose. I’ll size a case and adjust with it loose until I get the setting right. Then I lock it down. I might size and turn 10 times before I get it perfect....then lock that setting in with the lock ring. I’ve been doing this with success for 25 years or so.

As you sneak up on a perfect adjustment, you lock the lock ring every time?

BTW, I found a thin machined bushing for holding die square when locking down. Just at the local hardware store.

[Maxwell Haus]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

isn't that pretty much what I said? I have to agree with Maxwell, you sure like to debate, even when there is no one disagreeing. Reminds me a lot of another poster who disappeared from here

I am going to go out on a limb here Bart and state that I bet most of the readers of this forum are aware of how a bolt works. Just speaking for myself I would rather spend my effort on things I can control rather than things I cannot

You are a very polite person , I would have called him a troll . When a guys keeps coming at you and you know he does not have a clue of the actual situation, that is a troll.

[HiBC]

I appreciate that Bart has history of being a World Class shooter and part of the US Navy shooting team. That gave him access to resources ,research,and experimentation far beyond the means of most of us.

The other thing about Bart I have noticed is a style of asking a question.Its seldom about a whizzing contest.
The question is designed to nudge me slightly out of my comfort zone and think.
Thats all. They are Mentor like questions. I have to go back and re-evaluate my thoughts. Its not about winning or losing.

Its about maintaining just enough humble to learn something new once in a while.I have no doubt behind many of Barts questions is a trail blaze he put there so I/we can find the path to our own discovery.
I get that,and I appreciate it.

And...I also believe my own experience . Example? Under the forces of a press at full load do the 5 or 6 threads of the lock ring tightened on the machined top of the press provide the squareness and centered reference? Remember the load the ram is applying to the die is trying to lift the lock ring off the press.As the lock ring is static.any lift is clearance between the lock ring and press or die threads.

The 7/8 -14 threads have some clearance so the die screws in the press easily. The lock ring serves to take up the slack,and hold the loadbearing surfaces of the threadform in contact. I'll say again,a 60 degree thread form can be looked at a lot like a tapered valve seat.An exhaust valve will settle square and centered in the seat.Thats two dimensional.Add the helical nature of the vee thread,the length,and you add in the third dimension.

Mating Vee threads want to self center and self square under load. Its best the lock ring does not compete. It will lose. The resilience of an O-ring will sustain a preload while allowing the 7/8 - 14 thread axis to be Master.

[Bart B.]

Here's something to consider about shaping and sizing dies making cases and bullets from sheets of copper and brass.

None have O-rings between the lock ring and press frame.

[hounddawg]

take a unsized case color web with a sharpie then FL size it. At the top of the stroke see if there is any clearance between the die mouth and the top of the shellholder. Using a Whidden die ain 6BR I could not get a piece of paper between top of the shellholder and the die base. When I lowered the ram the sharpie was worn off to the top of the extractor groove. Just one die and cartridge but in that instance the entire case from the extractor groove up was in a press fit in a chamber cut with a one piece reamer.

Pretty sure that float in the dies and the shell holder would not affect that cases neck to body concentricity in the least. You could mount that die at a angle as long as there was enough float in the case holder where the case rim was not hitting the top of the caseholder groove and bending the case rim and it would not matter. Worst scenario is the case rim would get bent becasue that is least thick part of the case protruding from the die

you guys need to stop and think about how a die, the case and the shellholder interact. That float designed into the case holder is there for a reason

[hounddawg]

You can remove the ejector.

been there done that on my single shots. Not real practical on repeaters or gas guns

You are a very polite person

nope just been smacked on my hand enough by forum mods to where I tread carefully

I appreciate that Bart has history of being a World Class shooter and part of the US Navy shooting team.

If Bart posts something about a Springfield or a Garand you can pretty much bet it is gospel and dead on. However a lot of things have changed in the sport in the last 40 years and he and I tend disagree at times on newer stuff but I always try and be polite in my disagreements and he does have a lot of good advice at times.

[Bart B.]

When a case is fully into a full length sizing die with an O-ring under its lock ring, does the O-ring compress any amount when the case is pulled out of the die?

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

If Bart posts something about a Springfield or a Garand you can pretty much bet it is gospel and dead on. However a lot of things have changed in the sport in the last 40 years and he and I tend disagree at times on newer stuff but I always try and be polite in my disagreements and he does have a lot of good advice at times.

I don't think any thing physically or mechanically has changed with bolt action rifles.

[hounddawg]

I don't think any thing physically or mechanically has changed

and that is I take some of your advice with a grain of salt, at one point in my life I was a coach for another sport, but things do change and while some of the techniques I used in the 80's would still be valid, some are not

[Maxwell Haus]

Sometimes you just have to pull over and let others go by .

[hounddawg]

I am pretty much just a pup in this game and I have seen neck sizing and moly coating go from the "this is the way the pros do it" to "no one does that anymore" status

[HiBC]

When a case is fully into a full length sizing die with an O-ring under its lock ring, does the O-ring compress any amount when the case is pulled out of the die?

It likely would by the amount of clearance in the threads

Here's something to consider about shaping and sizing dies making cases and bullets from sheets of copper and brass.

None have O-rings between the lock ring and press frame.

I do not doubt you are correct. And,I admit,I've never examined the tooling to make brass or jacketed bullets.

I'm curious...are the die and press designs different enough that anything about a 7/8 -14 reloading die in a reloading press is relevant?

[Bart B.]

Modern cartridge making

https://www.google.com/search?q=Horn...obile&ie=UTF-8

Tour the Hornady plant.

Ask them if they o-ring their dies.

I've toured several plants, none used O-rings. Dies are much the same as what's used for reloading. Several are used for each case or bullet type several inches apart as a train of case or bullet holders moves under them.

https://www.petersoncartridge.com/te...drawing-brass/

[HiBC]

I watched he videos. Thanks.
I did see punch presses. I have done a little work with punch press die frames.
Not much.
I've mostly worked with plastic injection molds.

Generally,a press has a couple of platens.The die frame rests on the platens

The die frame will have two (or more) plates the die components rest on...dead length.They usually have a head or shoulder on them. A retainer plate has pockets ,holes,and frames to fit over and retain the die components.

Nothing is threaded in with lock rings.Nothing is adjustable.Its just made right,to size,or its made over.

I didn;t see tooling detail enough to say for sure,but I did not see screw in dies,or lock rings,and I'd agree,probably no O-rings.

I did not develop or test the O-ring idea.FWIW Lee sells lock rings with O-ring grooves.
And this will take you to the book that recommended the technique of using the o-ring for straight and concentric handloads.

Bart,I don't know enough to argue the point.Maybe you could argue with the authors.

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Sho...s%2C252&sr=1-3

I just noticed from the date of the book ,1998,that I was pursuing handload accuracy at that level ,(which is pretty good ammo,not bench rest ammo)
23 years ago. Cataracts got bad.I couldn't see well enough to shoot good enough it made any difference. I try to pass on what I haven't forgot.

Its like buying audiophile grade stereo equiptment when I'm half deaf

I sold off my pair of Macintosh MC-240 tube stereo amps. They sounded better than I could hear.

[Bart B.]

If o-rings are are required to fit dies perfectly, why aren't they included with the die?

[hounddawg]

do yall think the die somehow bends when the case is in it? Remember we are talking about that brass case being in a press fit from the case mouth all the way down to the web of the case

[HiBC]

If o-rings are are required to fit dies perfectly, why aren't they included with the die?

I never said O-rings were required .
I said I found a tip in Precision Shooting Magazine's 1998 Handbook,authored by David Brennan.The link to an Amazon ad identifying the book is above,
I passed on the suggestion I found there.
Talk it over with him.

You ask a question,I have the respect to answer,the arguement escalates.

I never wanted an arguement in the first place.

This really isn't worth the time.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I never said O-rings were required .
I said I found a tip in Precision Shooting Magazine's 1998 Handbook,authored by David Brennan.The link to an Amazon ad identifying the book is above,
I passed on the suggestion I found there.
Talk it over with him.

You ask a question,I have the respect to answer,the arguement escalates.

I never wanted an arguement in the first place.

This really isn't worth the time.

I wasn't asking you directly, just a general question for all.

[hounddawg]

Yet still no will answer why they think a full length sizing die can bend when the brass is fully inserted, making contact with the interior walls of the die from the case mouth all the way to the web.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

Yet still no will answer why they think a full length sizing die can bend when the brass is fully inserted, making contact with the interior walls of the die from the case mouth all the way to the web.

Already answered. Steel stronger than brass, should be fairly easy to grasp.

Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
I honestly don't think squaring the dies has much to do with it if you are using a full length non bushing sizing die. When that piece if brass is fully enclosed in the die it has no choice except to be concentric.

Would agree with the brass that is fully enclosed in body of the die. Would not agree that means any brass outside of the die is concentric with the brass inside of the die, which is the point being addressed by squaring your dies.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/reload...ing-depriming/

"Squaring Dies

One facet of die adjustment that is seldom mentioned is “squaring “ the die The industry standard for reloading dies is a 7/8 x14 thread. Virtually all U.S. reloading equipment manufacturers thread dies and presses for this pitch. This is coarse enough to allow for fairly rapid die installation and removal in reloading presses, but is still fine enough to maintain a good degree of precision and alignment in assembly. Unfortunately, in many instances, there will still be some misalignment between the ram/shell holder and the die body.


Carbide dies, such as this Titanium Carbide set from Redding, eliminate the requirement for lubricating straight-walled cases prior to sizing.

To square your dies, start by following the adjustment procedures outlined above, up to the point of locking the die. Rather than merely snugging the lock ring down against the top of the press and locking it, the dies are squared by lowering the ram slightly, and placing a flat machined washer between the die body and the shell holder. Raise the ram slowly, until the washer is putting light to moderate pressure on the bottom of the die. This will remove the play from the threads, while the flat washer helps to hold the die body square against the shell holder. Maintaining pressure on the die body, now lower the lock ring, and lock the die firmly in place.

This procedure applies to both sizing and seating dies, but should not be used with either carbide sizing dies or benchrest/competition seating dies. You will find that dies that have been squared in this manner will be somewhat difficult to remove from the press. If the lock ring must be loosened to remove the dies, simply repeat the process the next time you set up to reload. The time this procedure takes to perform is minimal, and we feel the results are well worth the effort."

[hounddawg]

Already answered. Steel stronger than copper, should be fairly easy to grasp.

Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
I honestly don't think squaring the dies has much to do with it if you are using a full length non bushing sizing die. When that piece if brass is fully enclosed in the die it has no choice except to be concentric.

Would agree with the brass that is fully enclosed in body of the die. Would not agree that means any brass outside of the die is concentric with the brass inside of the die, which is the point being addressed by squaring your dies.

I don't think there is not much brass outside of the die when the ram is up. Looks like there was contact of some degree all the way down to the extractor groove. Do you think it is bending the case head ? I would think any concentricity issues would be occurring in area of the neck shoulder junction anyway

Now once that ram starts down it is a different story, anything dragging on the inside of the neck could bend that neck out of parallel if the rim was tilting against the top of the shellholder. Get rid of those expander balls, that is where concentricity issue are being created. Think about what happens when that sase is being sized with a expander ball and when and where stress is being put on the neck/shoulder junction

I use a Lee turret there is a considerable amount of float just in the die holder. Same thing applies for the users of coaxial presses. If die float caused concentricity issues for me and anyone else that used a coaxial press the concentricity issues would be horrible.

however I never get more than .0015 and 90% of my loaded rounds have less than .001. How many can honestly make that claim