40S&W not so popular? - Page 3

TunnelRat · November 21, 2016, 07:58 PM

Quote:

How do you know when you're going to need high capacity rather than potency? (You can have both at the same time with .40S&W)

You can have both at the same time with 9mm, too.

agtman · November 21, 2016, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Some planning for caliber choice, such as where you need to be prepared for potentially dangerous animals (camping in the woods) is fairly simple.

Well, among other uses, there's the highly versatile 10mm AUTO. Maybe you've heard of it ...

It's been pulling duty as a camping, hiking, fishing, hunting, and backwoods/boonies sidearm for decades.

Heck, the Danish Artic Circle military units (Sledge Patrol Sirius) carry the Glock 20 loaded hot for defense against aggressive Polar bears.

DHart · November 21, 2016, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Some planning for caliber choice, such as where you need to be prepared for potentially dangerous animals (camping in the woods) is fairly simple.

AGTman said:Well, among other uses, there's the highly versatile 10mm AUTO. Maybe you've heard of it ...

It's been pulling duty as a camping, hiking, fishing, hunting, and backwoods/boonies sidearm for decades. Heck, the Danish Article Circle military units (Sledge Patrol Sirius) carry the Glock 20 loaded hot for defense against aggressive Polar bears.

What's with the attitude and why quote me? I have a Delta Elite and Glock 29 to include in my plans for times when I want 10mm. And revolvers in .357 mag and .44 mag for times when they are appropriate.

Why ask if I've "heard of" 10mm? It's a fine choice for appropriate circumstances and that's why I have two of them.

Are you feeling that 10mm is not being represented well enough in this conversation?

agtman · November 21, 2016, 08:15 PM

DHart: wasn't picking on you, dude, ... just highlighting that the 10mm is responsive to that general "outdoor use" comment.

DHart · November 21, 2016, 08:22 PM

Of course 10mm is among the options, depending on the application! And a great choice for out in the wilds! It is not likely the optimal choice for many gun buyer's needs, though.

There are good reasons why we have so many calibers... they each offer particular attributes for particular circumstances. No single caliber is "the best" across all applications.

Of course, there are a great many gun buyers who are not deeply involved "gun people", who might be intimidated by a pistol chambered in a larger caliber, and may only buy but one pistol that they expect will serve their every firearm need. I guess if you just want to have one pistol for home defense and possibly as a carry gun, and you feel it has to be small and light weight, and as inexpensive to shoot as possible, and be as easy to shoot as possible, 9mm absolutely makes sense.

For those who trumpet that 9mm is the be-all, do-all, only caliber choice for all to embrace - sorry - it is not for every person, nor for every application, and it never will be. It will be a very popular caliber among the masses, but not the first choice as a defensive caliber for many people.

For the more involved firearms person who appreciates and wishes to cover more bases... 40 offers more capability and is a very viable choice.

.40S&W will remain a popular caliber for a great many years to come. And it is quite likely still the most widely used law enforcement caliber in the USA.

In addition, every police turn-in pistol on the used firearm market, regardless of caliber, will be absorbed by the buying public! And all those pistols will need to be fed with ammunition. .40S&W has a strong future presence.

mete · November 21, 2016, 08:24 PM

Danish Article Circle ??? Don't you mean ARCTIC Circle ??

I wish I still had the photos of Polar Bears chewing on a submarine . Yes children polar bears eat almost everything ,seals , people , submarines !

lee n. field · November 21, 2016, 08:39 PM

Quote:

40S&W combines nearly the terminal performance of .45auto with nearly the capacity of 9mm, so you get most of the best of both worlds!

Said another way: .40S&W combines more power than 9mm AND more capacity than .45auto!

And, to put it yet another way: if 12 rounds of .40 won't fix a problem, would the jump to 15 rounds of 9mm make the difference?

TunnelRat · November 21, 2016, 09:22 PM

Quote:

It will be a very popular caliber among the masses, but not the first choice as a defensive caliber for many people.

Quote:

For the more involved firearms person who appreciates and wishes to cover more bases... 40 offers more capability and is a very viable choice.

Lol. I guess I'm not "involved" enough. Man these threads get priceless the longer they go on.

Here are some more folks not "involved" enough I suppose:
Travis Haley Glock 17 9mm (also 9mm M&P)
Massad Ayoob Glock 17 9mm
Chris Costa S&W M&P 9mm
Larry Vickers Glock 17/19 9mm
Gabe Suarez Glock 17 9mm
Rob Pincus 9mm (recommends a variety of handguns in this caliber)
Paul Gomez (RIP) Glock 17/19 9mm
Andy Stanford Glock 19 9mm
Kelly McCann Glock 19 9mm
Jason Falla Glock 17 9mm
Michael Janich Glock 17 9mm
Dave Spaulding Glock 19 9mm (sometimes Ruger SR9c)

This list isn't me saying that these folks are the ultimate trainers, but merely a way of showing that many people from serious backgrounds who are at least generally well regarded do use 9mm.

Listen, I don't think 9mm is magical. If you like 40SW that's great and I don't doubt that you have your reasons. But let's ease up on the arguments that seek to make it seem like 9mm is only for plebs.

DHart · November 21, 2016, 11:21 PM

TunnelRat... whatever, dude. Knock yourself out. A number of those folks are marketers/merchandisers of those very pistols you listed!

But 9mm isn't a bad choice. Though it's far from being "the best" or "the only" choice. It is just a choice. Some choose it. Some don't. So be it. It's not a RELIGION. (Or is it, for some?)

There are times when I choose 9mm myself. But I'm far from being a 9mm fanboy! And it's not my first choice in a defense caliber.

Do as you wish and I'll do the same.

I make my own decisions about what calibers and which firearms will serve me the best, depending on the situation. You should do the same.

TunnelRat · November 21, 2016, 11:32 PM

Quote:

BUT, it's far from being "the best" or "the only" choice. It is just a choice. Some choose it. Some don't. So be it. It's not a RELIGION. (Or is it, for some?)

I have never said it was the only choice. In fact I said essentially the opposite. What I did say was that you were going overboard.

Quote:

Do as you wish and I'll do the same.

Never said otherwise. In fact I admitted you likely have valid reasons for choosing 40SW.

Quote:

I make my own decisions about what calibers and which firearms will serve me the best, depending on the situation. You should do the same.

I do.

DHart · November 21, 2016, 11:59 PM

Fair enough, TunnelRat. We're "at ease".

By the way, I have all of the pistols you listed (well, G17RTF, a few G19s, and an M&P9C) among the "celebrities" you named above. They're all competent pistols (which I have carried at one time or another), but not among my very top choices should "the wolf" be at MY door. If they were all I had at hand, I'd be ok with that. But I have other options that I prefer, as long as I'm doing the choosing.

Sarge · November 22, 2016, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHart

For the more involved firearms person who appreciates and wishes to cover more bases... 40 offers more capability and is a very viable choice.

Absolutely agree.

DHart · November 22, 2016, 12:22 AM

Sarge... excellent treatise on the .40S&W. It truly is a great caliber that some people simply haven't "gotten" the wisdom of, yet. Perhaps they just haven't experieced much past 165 gr defense loads out of a G23, yet?

Fortunately, a great many people are quite well aware of the merits of .40S&W and this caliber will be with us for the duration of our lifetimes, NRA being watchful enough.

I leave with a photo of my favorite defense pistol, as of today, the SIG P320 Full Size 40. Shooting this feels like launching 9mm target loads; it's a honey of a pistol and caliber. And makes accurate hits incredibly effortless. Given the power range of .40S&W, from mild to wild (no, not 10mm, though!)... this is one versatile and exceptional choice.

For defense, I choose 180 gr HST, which performs exceptionally well - even compared to 230 gr HST in .45auto (180 gr HST has much better penetration and nearly as much expansion as 230 gr HST - and is softer/quicker to shoot. And due to its momentum, is less likely to deflect after barriers than lighter weight 9mm rounds are.)

P320 40 - 14+1=15 rounds of 180gr HST goodness. I would choose this over 9mm if "the wolves" were at my door.

TunnelRat · November 22, 2016, 12:22 AM

Quote:

We're "at ease".

Yay.

Quote:

I have all of the pistols you listed (well, G17RTF, a few G19s, and an M&P9C) among the "celebrities" you named above.

That's what they've been said to use previously, not really a list of my own choosing (nor would I call them "celebrities" but hey whatever makes you happy).

Quote:

They're all competent pistols (which I have carried at one time or another), but not among my very top choices should "the wolf" be at MY door. If they were all I had at hand, I'd be ok with that. But I have other options that I prefer, as long as I'm doing the choosing.

Okay.

DHart · November 22, 2016, 12:29 AM

Cosmodragoon · November 22, 2016, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Perceived recoil is a highly subjective thing and I think the key to becoming comfortable with .40 S&W is to have a pistol of sufficient size and weight to handle the recoil easily, maintaining an excellent grip, and just becoming more familiar with the recoil characteristics of the round. I do agree that the recoil of the .40 S&W cartridge does tend to be sharper than 9 mm Luger, or even .45 ACP, and it might not be the best choice for those with arthritic hands or wrists, or limited hand strength.

pblanc nailed it here. My first experiences with .40 S&W were all with small, light pistols that were optimized for concealed carry. In those guns, the difference between 9mm and .40 felt more like a chasm. It wasn't just the unpleasantness of the recoil but a noticeable impact on time and accuracy that I didn't feel was worth training around. It wasn't until I had the opportunity to try .40 in full-sized guns that I developed an appreciation for it. As for me, the Beretta PX4 Storm has given me my most pleasant and accurate shooting experiences in .40 S&W.

DHart · November 22, 2016, 02:07 AM

.45auto and .40S&W are not ideal calibers for pocket pistols! That's for sure. Reminds me of those who think that .44 special caliber in a vest pocket derringer makes good sense. Sheesh. Come on, folks. Wise UP. Match the platform to the caliber for optimal performance.

In the pocket and sub compact realm (which I rarely make use of) 9mm is definitely the smart choice, where the higher-capacity and soft-shooting benefits of the caliber really pay benefits in spades.

But when you get up to the latest design mid-size and full-size pistols that were actually designed specifically FOR .40S&W (unlike the Glock 23 and Glock 22, which were merely adapted 9mm pistols) and you shoot 180 gr loads, that's where the sweet spot lays for .40S&W and where the caliber wins fans left and right.

In these pistols (M&P40, HK VP40, SIG P320 40, Browning HP 40, etc.), you can have high capacity and easy shootability with .40S&W - with the added benefit of greater terminal ballistics, including significantly more momentum (for bone- and barrier- busting performance with minimized deflection).

Platform and load choice are the key elements which make all the difference in.40S&W being a stellar choice in a defense pistol.

Borrow, rent, or buy one of these modern design .40S&W pistols (NOT a Glock), load it with 180 gr ammo, and discover the joy of this caliber! It truly does combine nearly the potency of .45auto with nearly the capacity of 9mm while being hard-hitting, soft-shooting, quick return-to-target, and a pleasure to practice with.

Oysterboy · November 22, 2016, 02:55 AM

What do ya mean not a Glock?

Get a G20 and a 40sw barrel for it and you'll have a soft shooting pistol.

Wanna get serious? Then load up with 10mm.

I have a G29 and a 40sw barrel for it. handle 40sw just fine.

DHart · November 22, 2016, 03:32 AM

Oysterboy... I have a G29 that I would like to swap for a G20. I wouldn't need it for .40S&W, as I have so many great pistols chambered in .40S&W. But I'd prefer the G20 to the G29 for launching 10mm. That's a caliber that is most appreciated in a large, heavy pistol.

Perhaps I should consider a 10mm conversion for my G21SF.

I'm sure that a G20 would launch .40S&W quite softly.

dajowi · November 22, 2016, 06:00 AM

"You obviously don't know much about .40S&W, nor have much (if any) direct experience with different pistols chambered in .40S&W."

I will admit that 25 years as a pistol RSO hasn't allowed me the opportunity to shoot every handgun in .40 S&W. Like I said, I don't see a lot of them on the range. I've shot my share but neither the guns themselves nor the caliber impressed me. Then of course there is the Hi-Point .40. Which is a gun, a club, and a doorstop.

I reload all my own pistol ammo and don't see any point in reloading for .40.

Texas45 · November 22, 2016, 08:02 AM

It will be around for awhile (40 cal)
This debate will be around for awhile as well.
Carry what is comfortable for you.

I had a good laugh at the post about planning for the encounter and carrying his 9 or 45 based on the need for fire or stopping power. What a joke pick one and carry it. We all know dam well if we are ever forced in to a self defense situation we wont have any idea if it will be today tomorrow or never.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

agtman · November 22, 2016, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Danish Article Circle ??? Don't you mean ARCTIC Circle ??

Yep, good catch.

Tanks.

UncleEd · November 22, 2016, 09:02 AM

Like the .41 Magnum, the .40 S&W has always been unique---but very, very, very, very, very odd.

Now, the Glock GAP .45, that was an idea!

mavracer · November 22, 2016, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oysterboy

What do ya mean not a Glock?

Glock 40 s&w pistols are some of the worst designed 40s as far as recoil control since they use the same slide (mass) and recoil spring as their 9mm models. No wonder they're harsh in the recoil department with full house 40 ammo since they're basically designed to run with lightly loaded 9mm.

Not surprising that most of the trainers (who are subsidized by Glock) on tunnelrats' list prefer 9mm.

Oysterboy · November 22, 2016, 10:42 AM

Simple, change the springs. I don't why they would come out with weak springs.

November 21, 2016, 08:22 PM	#55
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	Of course 10mm is among the options, depending on the application! And a great choice for out in the wilds! It is not likely the optimal choice for many gun buyer's needs, though. There are good reasons why we have so many calibers... they each offer particular attributes for particular circumstances. No single caliber is "the best" across all applications. Of course, there are a great many gun buyers who are not deeply involved "gun people", who might be intimidated by a pistol chambered in a larger caliber, and may only buy but one pistol that they expect will serve their every firearm need. I guess if you just want to have one pistol for home defense and possibly as a carry gun, and you feel it has to be small and light weight, and as inexpensive to shoot as possible, and be as easy to shoot as possible, 9mm absolutely makes sense. For those who trumpet that 9mm is the be-all, do-all, only caliber choice for all to embrace - sorry - it is not for every person, nor for every application, and it never will be. It will be a very popular caliber among the masses, but not the first choice as a defensive caliber for many people. For the more involved firearms person who appreciates and wishes to cover more bases... 40 offers more capability and is a very viable choice. .40S&W will remain a popular caliber for a great many years to come. And it is quite likely still the most widely used law enforcement caliber in the USA. In addition, every police turn-in pistol on the used firearm market, regardless of caliber, will be absorbed by the buying public! And all those pistols will need to be fed with ammunition. .40S&W has a strong future presence. Last edited by DHart; November 21, 2016 at 08:44 PM.

November 21, 2016, 11:21 PM	#59
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	TunnelRat... whatever, dude. Knock yourself out. A number of those folks are marketers/merchandisers of those very pistols you listed! But 9mm isn't a bad choice. Though it's far from being "the best" or "the only" choice. It is just a choice. Some choose it. Some don't. So be it. It's not a RELIGION. (Or is it, for some?) There are times when I choose 9mm myself. But I'm far from being a 9mm fanboy! And it's not my first choice in a defense caliber. Do as you wish and I'll do the same. I make my own decisions about what calibers and which firearms will serve me the best, depending on the situation. You should do the same. Last edited by DHart; November 22, 2016 at 12:05 AM.

November 21, 2016, 11:59 PM	#61
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	Fair enough, TunnelRat. We're "at ease". By the way, I have all of the pistols you listed (well, G17RTF, a few G19s, and an M&P9C) among the "celebrities" you named above. They're all competent pistols (which I have carried at one time or another), but not among my very top choices should "the wolf" be at MY door. If they were all I had at hand, I'd be ok with that. But I have other options that I prefer, as long as I'm doing the choosing. Last edited by DHart; November 22, 2016 at 12:07 AM.

November 22, 2016, 12:22 AM	#63
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	Sarge... excellent treatise on the .40S&W. It truly is a great caliber that some people simply haven't "gotten" the wisdom of, yet. Perhaps they just haven't experieced much past 165 gr defense loads out of a G23, yet? Fortunately, a great many people are quite well aware of the merits of .40S&W and this caliber will be with us for the duration of our lifetimes, NRA being watchful enough. I leave with a photo of my favorite defense pistol, as of today, the SIG P320 Full Size 40. Shooting this feels like launching 9mm target loads; it's a honey of a pistol and caliber. And makes accurate hits incredibly effortless. Given the power range of .40S&W, from mild to wild (no, not 10mm, though!)... this is one versatile and exceptional choice. For defense, I choose 180 gr HST, which performs exceptionally well - even compared to 230 gr HST in .45auto (180 gr HST has much better penetration and nearly as much expansion as 230 gr HST - and is softer/quicker to shoot. And due to its momentum, is less likely to deflect after barriers than lighter weight 9mm rounds are.) P320 40 - 14+1=15 rounds of 180gr HST goodness. I would choose this over 9mm if "the wolves" were at my door. Last edited by DHart; November 22, 2016 at 12:36 AM.

November 22, 2016, 02:07 AM	#67
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	.45auto and .40S&W are not ideal calibers for pocket pistols! That's for sure. Reminds me of those who think that .44 special caliber in a vest pocket derringer makes good sense. Sheesh. Come on, folks. Wise UP. Match the platform to the caliber for optimal performance. In the pocket and sub compact realm (which I rarely make use of) 9mm is definitely the smart choice, where the higher-capacity and soft-shooting benefits of the caliber really pay benefits in spades. But when you get up to the latest design mid-size and full-size pistols that were actually designed specifically FOR .40S&W (unlike the Glock 23 and Glock 22, which were merely adapted 9mm pistols) and you shoot 180 gr loads, that's where the sweet spot lays for .40S&W and where the caliber wins fans left and right. In these pistols (M&P40, HK VP40, SIG P320 40, Browning HP 40, etc.), you can have high capacity and easy shootability with .40S&W - with the added benefit of greater terminal ballistics, including significantly more momentum (for bone- and barrier- busting performance with minimized deflection). Platform and load choice are the key elements which make all the difference in.40S&W being a stellar choice in a defense pistol. Borrow, rent, or buy one of these modern design .40S&W pistols (NOT a Glock), load it with 180 gr ammo, and discover the joy of this caliber! It truly does combine nearly the potency of .45auto with nearly the capacity of 9mm while being hard-hitting, soft-shooting, quick return-to-target, and a pleasure to practice with. Last edited by DHart; November 22, 2016 at 02:23 AM.

November 21, 2016, 08:15 PM	#54
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	DHart: wasn't picking on you, dude, ... just highlighting that the 10mm is responsive to that general "outdoor use" comment.

November 21, 2016, 08:24 PM	#56
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Danish Article Circle ??? Don't you mean ARCTIC Circle ?? I wish I still had the photos of Polar Bears chewing on a submarine . Yes children polar bears eat almost everything ,seals , people , submarines !

November 22, 2016, 12:29 AM	#65
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591

November 22, 2016, 02:55 AM	#68
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	What do ya mean not a Glock? Get a G20 and a 40sw barrel for it and you'll have a soft shooting pistol. Wanna get serious? Then load up with 10mm. I have a G29 and a 40sw barrel for it. handle 40sw just fine.

November 22, 2016, 03:32 AM	#69
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	Oysterboy... I have a G29 that I would like to swap for a G20. I wouldn't need it for .40S&W, as I have so many great pistols chambered in .40S&W. But I'd prefer the G20 to the G29 for launching 10mm. That's a caliber that is most appreciated in a large, heavy pistol. Perhaps I should consider a 10mm conversion for my G21SF. I'm sure that a G20 would launch .40S&W quite softly.

November 22, 2016, 06:00 AM	#70
dajowi Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 1,196	"You obviously don't know much about .40S&W, nor have much (if any) direct experience with different pistols chambered in .40S&W." I will admit that 25 years as a pistol RSO hasn't allowed me the opportunity to shoot every handgun in .40 S&W. Like I said, I don't see a lot of them on the range. I've shot my share but neither the guns themselves nor the caliber impressed me. Then of course there is the Hi-Point .40. Which is a gun, a club, and a doorstop. I reload all my own pistol ammo and don't see any point in reloading for .40.

November 22, 2016, 08:02 AM	#71
Texas45 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2016 Posts: 223	It will be around for awhile (40 cal) This debate will be around for awhile as well. Carry what is comfortable for you. I had a good laugh at the post about planning for the encounter and carrying his 9 or 45 based on the need for fire or stopping power. What a joke pick one and carry it. We all know dam well if we are ever forced in to a self defense situation we wont have any idea if it will be today tomorrow or never. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

November 22, 2016, 09:02 AM	#73
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	Like the .41 Magnum, the .40 S&W has always been unique---but very, very, very, very, very odd. Now, the Glock GAP .45, that was an idea!

November 22, 2016, 10:42 AM	#75
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	Simple, change the springs. I don't why they would come out with weak springs.