What do you think of this?

[Dr. Strangelove]

I hate this acronym, but.. LOL! Really? Wow, he's really stretching, I hope someone linked him to this thread.

OK, some of you more engineery types explain to me how PSI is somehow worse on pistol than rifle casings? (Assertion #3)

35,000 PSI is 35,000 PSI in a 9mm case or a 10 ft long cylinder, right? I know the longer cylinder holds more compressed gas, but pressure is pressure.

AND... In the original post he clearly is addressing "hobbyist" reloaders, but in the "response", he claims to only be addressing professional, commercial reloaders.

He's on the run... let's get him...

[spacecoast]

He posted in his response:

The pressured involved in firing a round in both rifles and handguns are similar. Handgun cases are smaller. Thus, that pressure is exerted over a smaller area.

There's some fundamental lack of knowledge at work here... doesn't he understand that pressure is measured in pounds per square inch? It's the larger size of the rifle cartridge chamber that results in much more total force to propel the bullet. While it's possible that many/most rifle chambers are built with more material than handguns to withstand the somewhat <higher> pressures, his statement causes me to say... Huh?

Also, his repeated "FOR PROFESSIONALS ONLY" defense in his response just comes off as arrogant... like the rest of us wouldn't understand just how highly a professional values his time.

[Gunplummer]

I don't reload pistol ammo, but I do for rifles, and never had a bad experience yet. The closest I came to a bad one was with Wolf factory ammo about 20 years ago. I had two in a box with no powder in them. The primer pushed the bullet up the barrel far enough to chamber another round. Lucky I saw the case was empty when it rolled across the table. That was the end of cheap "store bought" for me.

[Powderman]

Well, I posted a response...here it is...

_________________________________________

Excuse me, sir...but there are a few points in your posting that you might want to examine.

1. Trimming of handgun cases. No, sir, it's NOT difficult to trim a handgun case. Not that they'll need it; I had a batch of .45 ACP cases that I reloaded well over 100 times. I finally dropped them off at a recycler, and bought some more. I currently load for .45 ACP and .45 Colt, .38 and .357, .40 Smith and Wesson and .44 Special and Magnum. I have NEVER had a case grow longer--I have, however, seen them grow SHORTER.

2. May I ask where you get the failure rate of handgun cartridges from? I have NEVER seen a rash of failures such as the ones you mention--and I have been shooting and reloading for over 30 years.

3. You mention witnessing over 100 squib loads. That is interesting. During my time as a military armorer, firearms instructor, gunsmith, law enforcement officer/rangemaster/firearms instructor, I can count the number of squibs I have seen on one hand. This includes competing in NRA Conventional Pistol--where handloads/reloads are used almost exclusively and including three competitions at the Nationals, Camp Perry, Ohio.

4. One other point that I will mention, and that is the one concerning "professionals who place a high value on their time". I am a police officer, and I make it my business to get to the range at least once every other week. I will go through at least 300 cartridges each time, and ALL of them are handloads--loaded to duplicate the velocity and performance of our issued duty round. The difference is the cost. Neither I nor my Department can afford the cost incurred by this much practice.

_____________________________________________

And, I left it at that. Don't think it will do much good.

By the way, I noted that this guy says that he is an instructor at Front Sight. These folks MANDATE the use of factory new ammunition for their courses. Wonder why?

[FlyFish]

The "FOR PROFESSIONALS ONLY" part couldn't help but remind me of the instructor who was the "only person in this room professional enough [to carry a Glock 40]" - just before shot himself in the foot.

Here's the link to the youtube video, in case anyone here hasn't seen it yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yEWOUoDixg

[Shootest]

This was my comment.

You have no clue what you are talking about. I feel sorry for anyone who was ever a student of yours and had to listen to your misinformation. Are there dangers involved in reloading, YES, but for you to imply that they will happen is the same as telling a sky diver that if they pack there own shoot they will do something wrong and get hurt. Many professional shooters all over the country use only reloaded ammunition. WHY? Because it is tailor maid to perform in there firearm and is far better than any factory could hope to make. Instead of telling people they shouldn’t reload, you should be telling them to make sure they know HOW to reload. This article is a disservice to the shooting community.

[Mike Irwin]

"Mike Irwin, I think it would be great if you started your own forum!! I will be one of the first ones on it!!"

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Chef!

It wouldn't be a forum, though, only a blog where I would post my random rants and maniacal musings....

But, since my time is worth roughly $43 an hour, would it be cost effective and/or safe for me to actually write this stuff, or should I allow a major public relations firm to do it for me?

I ask that because I am (literally) a professional writer/editor.

[ipscchef]

Well, I just posted a response on his site giving some of the reasons why I consider his article to not only be a bunch of BS, but also to state my reasons why he has done a disservice to the shooting community in general.
I do hope some of you guys here who have a lot more knowlege will point out to him how wrong he is, not only in what he says, but also why what he says can harm us, and possibly turn other potential new shooters away from getting into shooting.
Willy

[jimbob86]

Dogsqueeze. The lot of it.

• A charge error of .2 grains of powder is enough to blow up your

I am trying to imagine how this could be possible ..... maybe with a really crappy pot metal .25 auto and some REALLY fast powder....

The incidence of squib loads (bullets stuck in the barrel due to undercharging the case or having no charge at all) is very high.

Only for folks that pick poor loads or don't pay attention......

Handgun cases take more abuse than rifle cases. They absorb more pressure per unit of surface area than most rifle rounds do. This makes them susceptible to rupture;

Ha!

[Bowdog]

I shoot CAS. This is my third season. Last year I started to reload. Factory, 45 Colt is about $50 per box of 50. Tax included. I reload for about 18 cents a round. Reloaded 3,000 rounds last year. The Dillon 550B was easy to set up and use. In that 3,000 rounds I had 3 squibs. Two the very first loads made. One last week . Cleared barrel went right back to shooting. And I"m just a first time reloader.

[jimbob86]

•There is no easy, cost effective way to trim handgun cases, which can lead to reliability problems. If the case is too long, it will not chamber properly;

The Lee set-up costs about 10 bucks. Chucked into a 3/8" drill, it does not get any easier or dummy proof....... not that most handgun brass is stretching much anyhow.....

•There can be some variability in the crimp of the cartridge

Why would this be, unless the person running the press was screwing the die in or out between strokes, or had not trimmed his cases.....

•There can be some variability in the crimp of the cartridge

There can be, if the reloader is sloppy.....

The thing about handloads for self defense may be valid, but there is no reason to go plinking or punching paper with $1 per pop SD loads, either: Carry the best SD ammo you can buy, preferably what local LEOs carry, if that works well in your gun.

Not saving any money? He compares buying premium bullets, primers and powders in small amounts (the most expensive way to do it) with buying factory ammo in bulk...... and then still has to figure in an hourly wage for putting them together! How many of us are getting paid an hourly wage to play video games, type on gun forums, or do any other thing we enjoy?

Dogsqueeze. Almost all of it.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I thought you guys might find this interesting.... he has posted a response to our comments.... he deleted all our comments... but of course, he responded.

http://firearmresource.com/?p=155


I am reposting the following comment:

Your comment about the pressures involved is a perfect example of the fact that you do not understand the concepts involved in reloading.

First, the pressures are not "similar". Rifle cartridges routinely produce 60,000 psi or more. Handgun cartridges virtually always produce less than 30,000psi, with very few exceptions, and NONE in any autoloading handgun even remotely approaches 60,000psi.

Second, "psi" stands for "Pounds per Square Inch", that means that two cases that produce 30,000 "pounds per square inch" are under the EXACT SAME pressure, no matter if one is twice as big or 10 times as big as the other.

Your comment about trimming handgun cases is another example. Semiauto handgun cases almost invariably SHRINK with repeated use, not grow. It's another consequence of the lower pressure (less punishment, not more) that a handgun case endures compared to a rifle. The handgun cases do not develop enough pressure to stretch the case and repeated resizing causes them to get SHORTER not longer.


I challenge you to provide an example where a .2gr overcharge of ANY powder will exceed SAAMI proof pressures in a common handgun cartridge.... 380acp, 9x19, 10mm, 45acp, 40sw, any of them or more.

I challenge you to discuss these concepts on an open forum, and I will suggest http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441848. You will notice that many experienced reloaders are already discussing the numerous logical fallacies in your article.

Lastly, I challenge you to NOT delete this comment. Anyone can refute claims that he does not allow to be published.

[spacecoast]

He's definitely in denial, and uses the "registered professional users" disclaimer for his personal CYA. Pretty lame.

[Berry's MfG]

All I can say is "Wow", I couldn't read it all. I sure hope he doesn't actually try to reload himself, but if he does I would like to give him my competitors phone number.

[maillemaker]

I have posted a reply:

"The simple fact still remains that a 50-round box of Winchester White Box .45 ACP costs about $24, or about $.48 a shot. When I reload using purchased bullets, I can reload for about $.18 a shot. That’s a savings of $15 a box. When I reload using my own cast bullets, I can reload for about $.08 a shot. That’s a savings of $20 a box.

When I go shooting, I usually and easily shoot 4 boxes (200 rounds) in a session. With factory Winchester White Box ammo, that works out to about $100 worth of ammo. With my reloads, It’s $16 worth of ammo.

Now, maybe for “professionals” it’s just not a big deal to save $84 on an afternoon’s worth of shooting in exchange for a couple of hours of reloading effort. But for me, it’s the difference in getting to go shooting once a month or not going at all. It’s hard to justify burning (literally) half my month’s spending money on an afternoon’s worth of entertainment. But I can see my way to dropping a twenty for an afternoon’s worth of entertainment. Over the course of a year of shooting, it’s easily a savings of over $2000.

As for the rest, there is no doubt that reloading has the potential for danger. So does scuba diving, or hang gliding, or sky diving, motorcycle riding, and a host of other leisure activities. As long as you have respect for what you are doing, an attention to detail, and good training and knowledge, there is no reason why you cannot do it safely, and countless people do.
"

[Mike Irwin]

His claim that the ammo companies are the only ones who do it right all the time just took another credibility hit.

Winchester just recalled some Ranger .223 ammunition.

Pity he won't join us here.

He'd be given the exact same voice here that he's afforded our members there...

[TimT]

Sad that I'm not seeing any of the replies from the users here on his site. I wonder if he has already deleted them, or if he just approves them at will.

I'd love for him to join us here.

[Brian Pfleuger]

His claim that the ammo companies are the only ones who do it right all the time just took another credibility hit.

Winchester just recalled some Ranger .223 ammunition.

Yeah, I added that to a second comment... so much for professional ammo company "perfection".

[Mike Irwin]

He's made it very clear that he's not going to post ANY of the responses he gets.

[donkee]

And for those of you who doubt my knowledge in these matters, please know that I have owned a business, which possessed a Type 6 FFL (Licensed ammunition manufacturer), and have loaded over 500,000 rounds of custom ammunition. Not RELOADED…but LOADED (new).

He speaks of his business in past tense.

No wonder, after reading his scribblings, I wouldn't buy ammunition from him.

I would have to nail my gun to a tree and pull the trigger with a string for fear of blowing myself up.

Betcha my 16 year old can outshoot him too.........

[Doodlebugger45]

There's just no tellin what dangers await all of us in our daily activities as we go out and do things to save a dollar or just want to do them ourselves. There are trained professionals out there who can do it better and safer than we can.

Change your own oil and do your lube jobs? My God! Are you nuts??? That 6000 lb truck might reach speeds of 75 mph! Do you want to endanger the public by having an amateur perform vital and sensitive maintenance tasks? You should take your truck to the dealer of course.

Would you even consider changing a flat tire by the side of the road??? Sheer idiocy! Besides the obvious dangers of tampering with a complex mechanism such as an automobile as mentioned above, there is the very real danger of being hit by an oncoming car while you are doddering around changing your tire. It is much better to call a trained professional that works for a roadside assistance organization. A tad bit more expensive but well worth the cost of your life.

And how about the sheer lunacy of cooking your own food at home??? You need to be warned of the dangers of salmonella poisoning, e coli bacteria, botulism, and a myriad of other foood-borne pathogens. Not to mention the chance of your oven blowing up due to a gas leak. And the horrors of subjecting yourself to the needless exposure of microwave radiation gives a normal person nightmares! No need to do this in an effort to save a few pennies, when there are trained professionals working in the restaurant industry who can prepare your meals for you.

This diesn't even begin to address other activities such as pumping your own gasoline, dispensing your own aspirins, trimming your own fingernails, or scrubbing your own toilet.

In short, the world is a dangerous place. It's better to leave it to the trained professionals.

[Clark]

Mike Irwin
"A charge error of .2 grains of powder is enough to blow up your gun;" Bravo Sierra. It's possible, but certainly not a given. I double charged a .45 some years ago and my gun came through just fine.

I work up rifles at 1 gr increments.
I work up 32 S&W long at 0.1 increments.


I have blown up a lot of guns in work ups, and tried and failed to blow up a lot of guns in work ups.

The big problems are:
1) Thin chamber walls that split.
2) Brass case heads that fail allowing gas cutting

I have never been hurt, but that is like a guy who has handled poisonous snakes all his live and never been bitten, climbs rock faces without roping up, etc. It does not mean you can.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Actually, he did respond to mine, it's the one from Jon Thibodeau.

[sody]

Sure curious who the 'professionals' are that read his forum and where they are.
Of all the articles on his page the only one anybody bothered to comment on was the one on reloading, and there were only five comments and three were his. Of course, not counting the ones he wouldn't approve.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Clark

I work up 32 S&W long at 0.1 increments.

Would you say you've ever experienced a firearm or cartridge of any kind that would kaboom on a .2gr overcharge from book published max loads?