Casing Blew Apart (Help Please) Pictures - Page 3

sundog · May 15, 2009, 07:27 PM

What's the history on this case? If it's been fired in an unsupported chamber that might account for why it came apart like it did.

Hook686 · May 15, 2009, 09:54 PM

Thanks FlyFish.

I would be loading most likely at 6.3 grains of Unique (mid point of load range). I can visually see a difference between 6.7, 7.0 and 10.0 and the 6.3 loading. If I loaded 6.5 I'd not be concerned. But since I visually look after each powder drop, I'd pull the shell that might look like any of the three (6.7, 7.0, or 10.0) and weigh it, right then and there.

Thanks for the pictures. I'm quite comfortable seeing how easy it is to spot a 5% over a mid point charge of 6.3 grains of Unique. While I do not load .40 S&W, I do load 6.8 grains of Unique in .357 magnum (mid point load) in plated flat point bullets.

I am comfortable that I can tell the difference between a load of 6.8 grains of Unique and 7.3 grains of Unique (a half a grain, like between 6.3 and 6.7 grains in FlyFish's pictures).

Interesting thread. I've never blown a case loading Unique, and hope never to. I use Unique in .357 magnum and 9mm. I sure do not have an idea how 6.5 grains might have blown one in a .40 S&W. I am waiting for some conclusions by the experts here.

lll Otto lll · May 15, 2009, 10:05 PM

The failure is due to either the gun, the brass or the carelessness of the reloader. Just curious, how long have you been reloading?

WESHOOT2 · May 16, 2009, 05:48 AM

I've seen cases exactly like that before; you've been KB'd by bullet setback.

Not an iota of doubt in my mind.......

To reduce (substantially) the potential for setback, resize your brass using a LEE 'U' undersized sizing die.
Ensure your bullet diameter is at least .399".
Do the 'push test' to numerous completed rds.

**Mike Irwin** · May 16, 2009, 07:15 AM

"The failure is due to either the gun, the brass or the carelessness of the reloader. Just curious, how long have you been reloading?"

Well, that certainly creates suspects out of the obvious three...

But, why are you leaving out as suspects the unobvious three -- bullet gnomes, range sprites, and target elves?

zxcvbob · May 16, 2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

bullet gnomes, range sprites, and target elves?

I've seen those, but only briefly out of the corner of my eye. When I turn and look they are gone.

lll Otto lll · May 16, 2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

But, why are you leaving out as suspects the unobvious three -- bullet gnomes, range sprites, and target elves?

Because I didn't want to offend fairies.

k Squared · May 16, 2009, 01:33 PM

FlyFish,

You're my hero! I've been reloading for years and assumed a visual check would identify any significant variation in charge weight.

I'll be a lot more careful in the future.

Hook686 · May 16, 2009, 08:41 PM

Yesterday, 08:05 PM #53

lll Otto lll wrote:

Quote:

The failure is due to either the gun, the brass or the carelessness of the reloader. Just curious, how long have you been reloading?

40 years and have never had a 'Ka-Boom'. As I said, 'I'm comfortable with ....' I'm the only one that shoots my reloads. If I've settled on 6.8 grains of Unique with a 158 grain PFP, then I have loaded 6.2, 6.4, 6.6, 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4 grains and shot them. My alliant sheets show maximum of 6.8 grains of Unique with a LSWC and 7.8 grains of Unique for a JSP. Federal 200 primers were indicated (Alliant said that was was what was on the shelf the day they did the testing).

I like my load and am comfortable I can see a plus/minus .5 grains from the 6.8 grain loading. However I'd bet all are plus/minus .2 grains. I'm not perfect like some folks with .001 grain accuracy. But then most of my shooting is at 10 yards and all I need is to put 75% of my shots in a 4" circle. I don't need .001 grain accuracy to do this. I do use a table mounted circular magnifier with a light to look in each case as I drop the powder in. This works for me, but then I'm not using a Dillon, and I stopped using my Lee Pro1000 simply because I could not personally and individually verify each powder drop.

Good luck with what ever you choose and check and then double check each step of the journey.

FM12 · May 16, 2009, 08:57 PM

Was this in a glock, or had the brass been shot in a glock, with the bulge? Maybe a "preastressed" defect. This is a high pressure round, not much room for error, obiviously.

tiberius10721 · May 16, 2009, 11:49 PM

This was probabley just a beginner reloader who made bad mistake,but at least he took good pictures of his mistake to raise everybodys awareness of what can go wrong.Think goodness joe and whoever was there with him didnt get injured.I bet this kinda of kaboom happens all the time.

joedjr · May 19, 2009, 06:13 AM

Thank You very much to all the information everyone has offered. Though I have been shooting and hunting now for 40 years it certainly does not make me an expert at reloading. I have loaded about 500 rounds so far. One thing I did do was read 3 different books/manuals. I know this doesn't make me an expert but I have no one else to help me so was relying on the manuals to teach me.
When I started to reload the 40 S&W I really only wanted 6.0 of the unigue. What happened was when I was dropping the powder it slowly creped up on me. I did weigh almost every other round or so and know it was never more than 6.5. That was probably my 1st major mistake. I didn't realize that these 1/10 increments made such a big impact.
My second mistake may have been the seating. I crimped the bullet like the manual said, but maybe not quite enough. It said turn 1/8 to crimp I did 1/4 more. When I went and checked the seating today, I logged the number and than tapped on some of the tops of the bullets with a small tap hammer and some did move down a bit. This also may contributed.
Also, it may have been the brass. I bought the brass on line as once fired. I checked each case visually and they seem fine.
What I will do in the future when the gun comes back is load at the start and weigh every load, make sure the crimp is tight and buy new brass.
Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks again guys for all the help.
Joe

SL1 · May 19, 2009, 08:53 AM

joedjr,

Tapping on the bullets with a hammer is not an appropriate test for bullet set-back. It just is not possible to judge how hard to tap in order to appropriately simulate the hit the bullet takes when being jammed into the feed ramp as the pistol cycles automatically.

The apporpriate test is to make-up about 5 dummy rounds (no powder or primers, but brass sized/expanded and bullet seated/crimped just like a regular round). At the range, measure the overall length of a dummy to the nearest 0.001" then load it into a magazine and load a factory round above it. Hand-cycle the slide to feed the factory round into the chamber, fire the factory round to auto-feed the dummy, then carefully eject the dummy to ensure that it has a soft landing (so THAT doesn't set the bullet back). Now, measure the dummy's length again. It should not be set back more than a few thousandths of an inch. Doing that test with 5 dummies is a pretty good way to assure that your die set-up is adequate to prevent set-back.

You can do an initial set-back test at home, using the dummy cartridges, but measuring their lengths before and after being hand-cycled from a magazine into the chamber. If they are loose enough to move much during that test, you know you need to fix something before you spend the time to go to the range. But, the range test is necessary, because an auto-feed can move a bullet back when the hand-cycle won't do it.

Also, if you change brass, you need to do the range test again with the new brass. Case mouth wall thicknesses are sometimes much thinner than normal on some brands/lots of brass, and that can SERIOUSLY affect how tightly the case grips a bullet.

If all this sounds like a PITA, it IS. One way to minimize it is to get a set-up that works with one type of brass, and then use a caliper to measure the thickness of the cae wall just inside the mouth. If it works with those cases, it should work OK with thicker cases, but maybe not with thinner cases. So, when you get more cases, just check their mouths with the caliper, and be warned when you find they are thinner. That means you need to do the dummy test at the range, again.

The only other 2 things that can mess-up case mouth tension enough to be unsafe are (1) that sometimes brass is too soft, and (2) sometimes bullets are under specified diameter. I don't think that soft brass is as likely as the brass being to thin, but it is worth remembering that it can also get you into trouble with set-back. Bullets can easily be measure with your caliper to determine that a new lot is still as large or larger than the ones that have already been shown to work with your dies.

IF you have set-back problems, increasing crimp usually won't stop it. You need either a tighter sizer die or a smaller expander plug. Ask again if you have the problem and need to identify which is causing it.

SL1

F. Guffey · May 19, 2009, 09:25 AM

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

F. Guffey

glokmunkee · May 19, 2009, 05:44 PM

great link! so what's the verdict?
Joe have you measured the remaining rounds? 1.124 in a baretta in no way can be too long to prevent battery but it does look like a battery failur. or a weak case but you already said they are once fired (so to speak) if only a few pressed slightly under a hammer setback cant be possible cause you can squeeze the round and I know the test and all but it will give you an idea. do you happen to know what COL is too long for your chamber? is it possible to have not seated a bullet all the way and have caused the weapon to not go into battery and cause this. it doesnt take much to cause problems. there is a rim around the primer so it cant be a extreme pressure issue, and if it is it is a profound one! would you remeaure the rounds and post?
thanks. I need to know cause i have a friend starting up loading .40 so it will help out.

isanchez2008 · May 19, 2009, 11:28 PM

No one may ever know what is to blame. My .02cents START AT THE MINIMUM and check EVERYTHING often. About as vague as can be but better safe than sorry

harry carey · May 23, 2009, 11:04 AM

was this case previously fired in a glock ? how many times ? I use a casemaster junior to remove bulge, etc. chamber dimensions ??? 6.5 is too hot ! iI have had 5 dillon measures, and tested them as did neil knox and ed matunas and they routinely are off .3 . CRIMP ? not enuf ? bullet pushed in raising pressures very high. see HP White studies. I have seen oversized plated bullets in rounds and this is either kaboom or stuck in barrel situation. OAL and crimp are very important in the forty. one more time... JOIN a GUN CLUB !!! find out who REALLY knows handloading and hang out with them. there will be many at a club and usually none at a store or indoor range. see if you can find a series one Kimber in forty and buy it !!! you can load long in a 1911 . I use 10mm magazines in 40 and super 38 magazines in 9mm and load em long.

goldfacade · May 23, 2009, 11:52 AM

I have had mucho problems with 40 brass. I have had it so bulged that it wouldnt resize all the way. If one of these made it into your mag you could have a failure to return to battery. I would be careful where you purchase your brass at. Glocks are everywhere and are the major culprit in bulged brass. I get mine from a police range where the issued weapon is an M&P. I have thrown out many pieces that were bulged beyond resizing.

Sorry for your loss.
Tom

WESHOOT2 · May 23, 2009, 01:59 PM

'Generous' chamber dimensions can occur with every brand in every chambering, so I do not blame bulged brass on Glocks.

(In my past I have turned down offers for free 55gal drums of used 40 brass....)

Doby45 · May 23, 2009, 10:24 PM

Send all that free horrible 40 brass my way. I will pay to ship it.

kiwi56 · May 24, 2009, 03:55 AM

What I do with all my reloading is to use the powder measure to throw a load that is half a grain short then put it on your scales and top up with your powder trickler. I just use the old balance beam scales and they work for me, no batteries to go flat.

glokmunkee · May 24, 2009, 04:17 PM

I have read somewhere that the case in .40 needs to be full length sized with a sizer that does the length of the case. I can't find the link now and I do think it was expensive but in the long run it makes all that brass usable. If i find the link i will post it. I think that redding makes it. We are looking into some thing like it as we will be loading for a glock 22 soon in the future.

Farmland · July 14, 2009, 03:04 PM

I thought I would link this to my thread since by the photo's we had the same case issue. I see the OP has not been back for awhile I hope he didn't have extreme gun problems.

In any event I think combining each with a link might help some people in the future.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=367060

I am pretty sure that this case and my case was the result of extreme pressure due to exceeding the max powder recommendations in the case. I was able to confirm that was the issue in my 40 S&W case.
It was a reloading error on my part which is explained in my thread. But if you look at the photo's you will see the same case rupture coming out of the same type and caliber of gun. Maybe that speaks volumes of the pressure that a Beretta can take. I know it speaks volume about how even an experienced reload can make an error.

May 15, 2009, 07:27 PM	#51
sundog Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Green Country, OK Posts: 782	What's the history on this case? If it's been fired in an unsupported chamber that might account for why it came apart like it did. __________________ safety first

May 16, 2009, 05:48 AM	#54
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	picture proof I've seen cases exactly like that before; you've been KB'd by bullet setback. Not an iota of doubt in my mind....... To reduce (substantially) the potential for setback, resize your brass using a LEE 'U' undersized sizing die. Ensure your bullet diameter is at least .399". Do the 'push test' to numerous completed rds.

May 16, 2009, 07:15 AM	#55
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,425	"The failure is due to either the gun, the brass or the carelessness of the reloader. Just curious, how long have you been reloading?" Well, that certainly creates suspects out of the obvious three... But, why are you leaving out as suspects the unobvious three -- bullet gnomes, range sprites, and target elves? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 16, 2009, 01:33 PM	#58
k Squared Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 238	Outstanding Learning Experience FlyFish, You're my hero! I've been reloading for years and assumed a visual check would identify any significant variation in charge weight. I'll be a lot more careful in the future. __________________ K Squared

May 23, 2009, 01:59 PM	#69
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	one small point 'Generous' chamber dimensions can occur with every brand in every chambering, so I do not blame bulged brass on Glocks. (In my past I have turned down offers for free 55gal drums of used 40 brass....)

May 15, 2009, 09:54 PM	#52
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	Thanks FlyFish. I would be loading most likely at 6.3 grains of Unique (mid point of load range). I can visually see a difference between 6.7, 7.0 and 10.0 and the 6.3 loading. If I loaded 6.5 I'd not be concerned. But since I visually look after each powder drop, I'd pull the shell that might look like any of the three (6.7, 7.0, or 10.0) and weigh it, right then and there. Thanks for the pictures. I'm quite comfortable seeing how easy it is to spot a 5% over a mid point charge of 6.3 grains of Unique. While I do not load .40 S&W, I do load 6.8 grains of Unique in .357 magnum (mid point load) in plated flat point bullets. I am comfortable that I can tell the difference between a load of 6.8 grains of Unique and 7.3 grains of Unique (a half a grain, like between 6.3 and 6.7 grains in FlyFish's pictures). Interesting thread. I've never blown a case loading Unique, and hope never to. I use Unique in .357 magnum and 9mm. I sure do not have an idea how 6.5 grains might have blown one in a .40 S&W. I am waiting for some conclusions by the experts here.

May 15, 2009, 10:05 PM	#53
lll Otto lll Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2008 Location: Lone Star State Posts: 301	The failure is due to either the gun, the brass or the carelessness of the reloader. Just curious, how long have you been reloading?

May 16, 2009, 08:57 PM	#60
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Was this in a glock, or had the brass been shot in a glock, with the bulge? Maybe a "preastressed" defect. This is a high pressure round, not much room for error, obiviously.

May 16, 2009, 11:49 PM	#61
tiberius10721 Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 228	This was probabley just a beginner reloader who made bad mistake,but at least he took good pictures of his mistake to raise everybodys awareness of what can go wrong.Think goodness joe and whoever was there with him didnt get injured.I bet this kinda of kaboom happens all the time.

May 19, 2009, 06:13 AM	#62
joedjr Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Posts: 9	Thank You very much to all the information everyone has offered. Though I have been shooting and hunting now for 40 years it certainly does not make me an expert at reloading. I have loaded about 500 rounds so far. One thing I did do was read 3 different books/manuals. I know this doesn't make me an expert but I have no one else to help me so was relying on the manuals to teach me. When I started to reload the 40 S&W I really only wanted 6.0 of the unigue. What happened was when I was dropping the powder it slowly creped up on me. I did weigh almost every other round or so and know it was never more than 6.5. That was probably my 1st major mistake. I didn't realize that these 1/10 increments made such a big impact. My second mistake may have been the seating. I crimped the bullet like the manual said, but maybe not quite enough. It said turn 1/8 to crimp I did 1/4 more. When I went and checked the seating today, I logged the number and than tapped on some of the tops of the bullets with a small tap hammer and some did move down a bit. This also may contributed. Also, it may have been the brass. I bought the brass on line as once fired. I checked each case visually and they seem fine. What I will do in the future when the gun comes back is load at the start and weigh every load, make sure the crimp is tight and buy new brass. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks again guys for all the help. Joe

May 19, 2009, 08:53 AM	#63
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	joedjr, Tapping on the bullets with a hammer is not an appropriate test for bullet set-back. It just is not possible to judge how hard to tap in order to appropriately simulate the hit the bullet takes when being jammed into the feed ramp as the pistol cycles automatically. The apporpriate test is to make-up about 5 dummy rounds (no powder or primers, but brass sized/expanded and bullet seated/crimped just like a regular round). At the range, measure the overall length of a dummy to the nearest 0.001" then load it into a magazine and load a factory round above it. Hand-cycle the slide to feed the factory round into the chamber, fire the factory round to auto-feed the dummy, then carefully eject the dummy to ensure that it has a soft landing (so THAT doesn't set the bullet back). Now, measure the dummy's length again. It should not be set back more than a few thousandths of an inch. Doing that test with 5 dummies is a pretty good way to assure that your die set-up is adequate to prevent set-back. You can do an initial set-back test at home, using the dummy cartridges, but measuring their lengths before and after being hand-cycled from a magazine into the chamber. If they are loose enough to move much during that test, you know you need to fix something before you spend the time to go to the range. But, the range test is necessary, because an auto-feed can move a bullet back when the hand-cycle won't do it. Also, if you change brass, you need to do the range test again with the new brass. Case mouth wall thicknesses are sometimes much thinner than normal on some brands/lots of brass, and that can SERIOUSLY affect how tightly the case grips a bullet. If all this sounds like a PITA, it IS. One way to minimize it is to get a set-up that works with one type of brass, and then use a caliper to measure the thickness of the cae wall just inside the mouth. If it works with those cases, it should work OK with thicker cases, but maybe not with thinner cases. So, when you get more cases, just check their mouths with the caliper, and be warned when you find they are thinner. That means you need to do the dummy test at the range, again. The only other 2 things that can mess-up case mouth tension enough to be unsafe are (1) that sometimes brass is too soft, and (2) sometimes bullets are under specified diameter. I don't think that soft brass is as likely as the brass being to thin, but it is worth remembering that it can also get you into trouble with set-back. Bullets can easily be measure with your caliper to determine that a new lot is still as large or larger than the ones that have already been shown to work with your dies. IF you have set-back problems, increasing crimp usually won't stop it. You need either a tighter sizer die or a smaller expander plug. Ask again if you have the problem and need to identify which is causing it. SL1

May 19, 2009, 09:25 AM	#64
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm F. Guffey

May 19, 2009, 05:44 PM	#65
glokmunkee Member Join Date: April 25, 2009 Posts: 50	great link! so what's the verdict? Joe have you measured the remaining rounds? 1.124 in a baretta in no way can be too long to prevent battery but it does look like a battery failur. or a weak case but you already said they are once fired (so to speak) if only a few pressed slightly under a hammer setback cant be possible cause you can squeeze the round and I know the test and all but it will give you an idea. do you happen to know what COL is too long for your chamber? is it possible to have not seated a bullet all the way and have caused the weapon to not go into battery and cause this. it doesnt take much to cause problems. there is a rim around the primer so it cant be a extreme pressure issue, and if it is it is a profound one! would you remeaure the rounds and post? thanks. I need to know cause i have a friend starting up loading .40 so it will help out.

May 19, 2009, 11:28 PM	#66
isanchez2008 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2008 Location: WA Posts: 344	No one may ever know what is to blame. My .02cents START AT THE MINIMUM and check EVERYTHING often. About as vague as can be but better safe than sorry

May 23, 2009, 11:04 AM	#67
harry carey Member Join Date: April 25, 2009 Location: georgia Posts: 67	was this case previously fired in a glock ? how many times ? I use a casemaster junior to remove bulge, etc. chamber dimensions ??? 6.5 is too hot ! iI have had 5 dillon measures, and tested them as did neil knox and ed matunas and they routinely are off .3 . CRIMP ? not enuf ? bullet pushed in raising pressures very high. see HP White studies. I have seen oversized plated bullets in rounds and this is either kaboom or stuck in barrel situation. OAL and crimp are very important in the forty. one more time... JOIN a GUN CLUB !!! find out who REALLY knows handloading and hang out with them. there will be many at a club and usually none at a store or indoor range. see if you can find a series one Kimber in forty and buy it !!! you can load long in a 1911 . I use 10mm magazines in 40 and super 38 magazines in 9mm and load em long.

May 23, 2009, 11:52 AM	#68
goldfacade Member Join Date: July 22, 2008 Location: Central, FL Posts: 90	I have had mucho problems with 40 brass. I have had it so bulged that it wouldnt resize all the way. If one of these made it into your mag you could have a failure to return to battery. I would be careful where you purchase your brass at. Glocks are everywhere and are the major culprit in bulged brass. I get mine from a police range where the issued weapon is an M&P. I have thrown out many pieces that were bulged beyond resizing. Sorry for your loss. Tom

May 23, 2009, 10:24 PM	#70
Doby45 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Powder Springs, GA Posts: 213	Send all that free horrible 40 brass my way. I will pay to ship it.

May 24, 2009, 03:55 AM	#71
kiwi56 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Auckland NewZealand Posts: 350	Blow up What I do with all my reloading is to use the powder measure to throw a load that is half a grain short then put it on your scales and top up with your powder trickler. I just use the old balance beam scales and they work for me, no batteries to go flat.

May 24, 2009, 04:17 PM	#72
glokmunkee Member Join Date: April 25, 2009 Posts: 50	Full lenght sizing I have read somewhere that the case in .40 needs to be full length sized with a sizer that does the length of the case. I can't find the link now and I do think it was expensive but in the long run it makes all that brass usable. If i find the link i will post it. I think that redding makes it. We are looking into some thing like it as we will be loading for a glock 22 soon in the future. Last edited by glokmunkee; May 24, 2009 at 04:27 PM. Reason: munkeez kaint type!

July 14, 2009, 03:04 PM	#73
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	I thought I would link this to my thread since by the photo's we had the same case issue. I see the OP has not been back for awhile I hope he didn't have extreme gun problems. In any event I think combining each with a link might help some people in the future. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=367060 I am pretty sure that this case and my case was the result of extreme pressure due to exceeding the max powder recommendations in the case. I was able to confirm that was the issue in my 40 S&W case. It was a reloading error on my part which is explained in my thread. But if you look at the photo's you will see the same case rupture coming out of the same type and caliber of gun. Maybe that speaks volumes of the pressure that a Beretta can take. I know it speaks volume about how even an experienced reload can make an error.