Real ID Cards, a threat to our a way of life!

[IZHUMINTER]

I don't know about you but I never authorized nor voted in any national referendum that I am aware of to allow any information to be collected about me. This whole ID mess is an invasion of my right to privacy.

You don't have a "right to privacy," and last time I checked laws (in the United States of America) have never been passed by national referendum.

Unlike the European Union, there are few federal laws defining what personal information can and cannot be collected without your consent, and almost no coordination between the states regarding their various laws. US case law is also murky on the issue of privacy, with the Supreme Court wandering this way and that whenever it comes up.

The saving grace we currently have is the reserved powers clause...at least until more laws are passed that take those rights out of our hands. What we do have going in our favor is a strong decentralization trend, unlike socialist Europe. My condolences go out to the coasts, where people undoubtedly will be carrying around SmartIDs (TM) within a few years...but that has nothing to do with the Feds.

[Igloodude]

A post on THR noted that "they specifically shot down a proposed provision that would have prevented the RealID database from being used as a national database of gun owners."

I'm trying to find background on that (and more specifically, who voted for/against that provision), can anyone help me out?

[IZHUMINTER]

So, if this goes through unchallenged legally, we'll be in a survailence nation within 3 years. The next step will be obvious if you think on it; guns will be tied to their owners using this system. Pretty much the same backdoor registration as the "ballistic fingerprint". I'm apalled that people are so oblivious to that... RealID creates a new, even more powerful beaurcracy then ever. RealID basically says that we, as citizens of the United States do not know whats best for ourselves.

1. Gun registration is not an obvious outgrowth of national standards for state issued id cards. Please show, using reason and evidence (and not just wild specualtion) how your point has any kind of merit.

2. RealID does not create any additional "beaurcracy." It does not require you to be issued a card. It only requires that if you need to do business with the Federal government, and that business requires proving your identity, that the state issued ID you use meet certain standards. You can still do it the old fashioned way by provding birth certificates and phone bills and such. Read it for yourself, it's in Title II about halfway down this page: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...mp/~r109E1tyRw

[IZHUMINTER]

A post on THR noted that "they specifically shot down a proposed provision that would have prevented the RealID database from being used as a national database of gun owners."

The following link should help you...

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:H.1268:

[atk]

As I posted on THR:

http://thomas.loc.gov/r109/r109d09my5.html
Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act Conference Report: A unanimous-consent agreement was reached providing for the consideration of the conference report to accompany H.R. 1268, making emergency supplemental appropriations for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2005, at approximately 10:45 a.m., on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.

Page S4794

The five versions of the bill can be found at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.+1268:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer..../temp/~bd968z
120. S.AMDT.429 to H.R.1268 To establish and rapidly implement regulations for State driver's license and identification document security standards, to prevent terrorists from abusing the asylum laws of the United States, to unify terrorism-related grounds for inadmissibility and removal, and to ensure expeditious construction of the San Diego border fence.
Sponsor: Sen Isakson, Johnny [GA] (introduced 4/14/2005) Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 4/20/2005 Proposed amendment SA 429 withdrawn in Senate.

I don't see anything later than that update, regarding this issue.


Now, I've never looked at Thomas before, so I could be very confused. Does this mean that the ammendment has been killed?

Also, I'm trying to find out how the debate/vote actually went. Can anyone anyone help an interested citizen figure it out?







I've yet to recieve a response, there. I'm planning to call Kennedy's and/or Kerry's offices (since they're my elected representatives) to see if I'm reading it correctly, but I would still appreciate feedback...

[IZHUMINTER]

Now, I've never looked at Thomas before, so I could be very confused. Does this mean that the ammendment has been killed?

That specific ammendment was killed, but quite a bit happened after. Take a look at the "All Congressional Actions with Amendments" link for a down-to-the-minute chronology of the legislation during its time in the House, the Senate and committees (complete with brief summaries of all proposed ammendments).

[Unique 5.7]

So, will this ID have all the guns registered to you listed in the data bank?

[atk]

IZHUMINTER,


Ugh, that's a lot to read. I expect I'll have to spend a couple hours just to digest it.

Thanks.

[Avizpls]

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...5/real_id.html

hope thats not a repost. But it changed my mind. I dont like the idea.

[mfree]

Seems they passed it, unanimously.

[Trip20]

Seems they passed it, unanimously.

Guess they're all just nuts, and we know better

yeah.. right...

[Wraith]

Well said, Bog.

[Kayser]

That specific ammendment was killed, but quite a bit happened after.

Wait, so I'm confused now. That particular amendment was killed - but was that the "National ID" amendment, or just one of the sub-amendments related to it?

[IZHUMINTER]

That particular amendment was killed - but was that the "National ID" amendment, or just one of the sub-amendments related to it?

For starters, it's not a "National ID," just standardization, and those provisions are still intact (and awaiting the President's signature to become law).

[payne]

Bog, i didn't know UK was doing the same thing. And ya'lls has DNA info on it? All this is getting very.......... I just don't know what to say about it other than I just have this bad feeling about all this. But I cant stop it. It's gonna happen wether i want it or not. Of course there are a lot of things that happen that way. I'm ready.............

Oh, and about the 666 on the card, Big bore hit it on the head with his reply after my last one. Many don't view it as a literal "666" mark, but symbolizing it.

[F350Lawman]

This whole ID mess is an invasion of my right to privacy

That's it ...I'm convinced, starting today I am ID free!

I am getting rid of my drivers license, passport, vehicle registration, insurance card, gun permit, retired LEO ID, consultant ID, private investigator ID, Social Security card, HMO card, hospitalization ID, prescription card, union benefit card, voter registration card, library card, my clients facility admittance card, discount shopping card, credit cards, debit cards, school ID, Charlie Browne's diners card...



Wow, big brother be damned..I am free..I can't go anywhere or do anything or eat or work or get medical attention...but gosh, golly, the MAN no longer has his boot on my throat!!!

[jonathon]

IZHUMINTER
The card will be controlled by the Department of Homeland security, whatever they decide to require on it will be put on it. The bill gives them pretty much unlimited power to mandate what goes on. In the name of "homeland security" firearms will be targeted. Remember the whole bit on terrorists and gunshows? How many localities banned gunshows from this nonexistant threat? All it will take is another crazy like the DC sniper to go on a killing spree(with an illegal weapon even), and people will be stirred up into supporting such registration.

Ever here of RFID? The cards will have it.

In theory, its a nice idea. You won't need to swipe your card, or remember passwords or anything. All you'd have to be is within a few hundred yards, and the government has your general location. Not to mention, anyone who breaks the encryption can and will be able to access your personal information.

Its all about control. The politicians in America want all the power. We peasants arn't smart enough to take care of ourselves, we need big brother to do it for us

[Brian Dale]

I expect that we'll read descriptions of this as a terrorism-fighting tool. I believe that it'll result instead in a lot of government resources being spent tracking and analyzing regular people instead of chasing terrorists, illegal aliens and garden-variety criminals. It's a lot safer to spend all day checking up on normal folks for building permits, EPA compliance and unpaid traffic tickets than to go out and catch bad guys.

Yeah, I'm in the "666 is a metaphor" group.

Every data thief in the world is happy tonight.

[41special]

For all of our page 1 literary critics: Fahrenheit 451 was about censorship.

1984 and Fahrenheit 451 bear no literary semblance.

[9mm1033]

All valid comments, but it boils down to one thing. No matter how we (American citizens) feel, guys in thousand dollar suits will make the decision. Can the culprits be unelected? Doubtful, just too many. So, sit back and enjoy the ride. It's going to be bumpy. Of course if it really pisses you off, Canada could be an option.

[Charley]

All valid comments, but it boils down to one thing. No matter how we (American citizens) feel, guys in thousand dollar suits will make the decision. Can the culprits be unelected? Doubtful, just too many. So, sit back and enjoy the ride. It's going to be bumpy. Of course if it really pisses you off, Canada could be an option.

Sorry, I still retain a few ounces of faith that "we the people" have some say in the direction our country takes. Sitting back and enjoying the ride is what has gotten us here in the first place. I submit to you that we should all get out of our recliners for a change and at least attempt to have a voice. Those "men in suits" are ultimately just that: men in suits.
And if all else fails...Canada? Please, at least exile me to a reasonable habitat.

[Waitone]

All this was brought about my a half dozen or so irresponsible states governors and legislatures. Said states repeatedly refused to control access to DL's.

So what was the federales supposed to do? Allow the situation to continue? Granted the mobility of criminal aliens is based in a number of factors, but the one causing the most heartburn is the granting of DL's by a handfull of irresponsible states.

FWIW, I got a bad feeling about Real ID.

[IZHUMINTER]

The card will be controlled by the Department of Homeland security, whatever they decide to require on it will be put on it. The bill gives them pretty much unlimited power to mandate what goes on.

I don't know where you're coming up with this, because it's either wrong or doesn't apply.

First, THERE IS NO NATIONAL ID CARD. Never has been, and this law will not change that. The point of the law is to standardize how licenses and ID cards are issued, and to make it harder to get them illegally. Even if it HAD been the intent of the legislation, it's impossible the way the law is written. Let me quote from the Congressional Conference that hammered out the legislation:

"...the law is binding on Federal agencies--not the states. Consequently, this Act does not directly impose federal standards with respect to states' issuance of driver's licenses and personal identification cards. The application of the law is indirect, and hence states need not comply with the listed standards. However, states would nevertheless need to adopt such standards and modify any conflicting laws or regulations in order for such documents to be recognized by federal agencies for official purposes."

Second, DHS doesn't determine what goes on ID cards...Congress lays that out in the law, and the Secretary has no authority to alter it. Here's the relavant portion of the proposed law:

"(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:
(1) The person's full legal name.
(2) The person's date of birth.
(3) The person's gender.
(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person's address of principle residence.
(7) The person's signature.
(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements."

I'm looking at my Iowa DL, my buddy's Texas DL and a Minnesota DL right now. Guess what? THEY ALREADY HAVE ALL OF THAT. The information that is on the cards is nothing new...it's how you verify that information is the subject of the legislation.

In the name of "homeland security" firearms will be targeted. Remember the whole bit on terrorists and gunshows? How many localities banned gunshows from this nonexistant threat? All it will take is another crazy like the DC sniper to go on a killing spree(with an illegal weapon even), and people will be stirred up into supporting such registration.

You pulled this out of thin air. It doesn't have the slightest of connections to the issue at hand. The law says nothing about firearms.

Ever here of RFID? The cards will have it.

No, actually they probably won't. The law doesn't say the states will have to use RFID on their cards. Doesn't say they have to use microchips on their cards. Doesn't define the technology at all. However, the conference committe members talked about the technology already in use and approved by states on their licenses. There are only three states that don't already have either bar codes or magnetic strips (for more information fo here http://www.aamva.org/standards/stdUSLicenseTech.asp). The states even store the same basic data on those strips like your name and eye color...the data just isn't uniform as to how and where on the strip it's stored, so a Massachusets State Trooper would have a hard time reading, say, an Arizona license with his handheld device. This law simply provides a common frame of reference for records that are already being kept.

[Al Norris]

IZHUMINTER, those standards you quoted are the Minimum standards required by Congress. If you had read the dang thing, you would have also come across the part that says the Secretary of Homeland Security has the authority to add to those standards.

You're right, this is no National ID. You will only need it to access anything to do with the Feds. Need to catch a flight? A train? Bus? DHS will require you to present your Real ID in order to partake of those modes of travel. How long it will be before this form of ID will be required to cross state lines? Internal passports, anyone?

Whether or not we get to that point is moot. This is a merchants bonanza!!

Need beer or (gasp) cigarettes? The cashier will demand to swipe your Real ID in order to purchase. Gotta make sure you're of legal age. That pimply kid at wally world will require your Real ID in order to buy your Win White Box. Open a bank account? Cinch. Need medical care? Got that covered too. Merchants of all stripes will begin to cache your data.

That little card you got to partake of a stores discounts? Once they start asking you to swipe your Real ID, they will be able to drill down to your discount card, no matter what you put on the form to get it. Think it won't happen? You haven't been paying attention.

Sure, at first, if they ask for your Real ID, you can just tell 'em where to get off and go to another store. But what happens when they all start asking for your Real ID? Who ya gonna buy from then? Need to pay by check or credit/debit card? May I see your ID please? You gonna bulk at that one? It's for our and your protection, afterall.

Forget about what the .gov will do with this thing. Be worried about what and how the merchants will do and how they will track everything you purchase. Complete marketing directly tied to what you buy and how you spend your leisure time. Oh, what a wondrous dream come true! Thank you Congress!!

You think I'm nuts? I'm in the retail market and have been for 15 years now. We have been trying to get something like this into your wallet for a long time. Of course, none of this should cause you any alarm. All the better to "serve" you, donchya know?

You just slipped on the floor of my store? Don't bother to sue us, afterall, we can prove you buy at least a six pack every day, for the last ____ years! Dang drunks....

Oh, I haven't even begun to let my imagination run rampant with all the things we will be able to track! And the $$$ we can get selling your data to others!

You folks keep ranting and raving about what the .gov might do... Please! Don't think about us merchants at all... Until it's too late. You'll be snared, and the .gov will have not lifted a finger!... except to standardize all those state DL's and ID's.

[IZHUMINTER]

IZHUMINTER, those standards you quoted are the Minimum standards required by Congress. If you had read the dang thing, you would have also come across the part that says the Secretary of Homeland Security has the authority to add to those standards.

I think that it's pretty evident that I've read it. After all, I'm the only one quoting from it and posting links to where the rest of you can find it. Guess what? There is no clause anywhere giving the Secretary of Homeland Security any sort of authority to impose additional standards. In fact, the Secretary has no additional authority under this law to do anything except 1) certify that a state has either met the standards or not, and 2) give the states money if they need it update their DLs and ID cards.

You're right, this is no National ID. You will only need it to access anything to do with the Feds.

That's not what the law says. It doesn't mandate that you use the ID for anything. This law sets common standards for ID issuance and that's all. You, as a private citizen, can still use other forms of ID if your state chooses not to join the fun or if you just don't feel like it. If (or when, ad you seem to think) Congress passes a law mandating such use, that would be the appropriate time to be outraged but not now.

Now, merchants using data on your card is a different story. I don't share your dystopian view, but I can see where you're coming from. I think such use would be a violation of the Drivers Privacy Protection Act (go here for a good link: http://www.epic.org/privacy/drivers/), and is definitely a violation of some state's privacy laws, but IANAL so I don't have as many details as I'd like.

For my part, if my local 7-11 tried to get me to swipe an ID to buy beer I'd go in person to the statehouse to see my representative. Hell, I'd run for office to keep something like that from happening.