Using a 22LR for Sniping - Page 2

Jamie Young · January 21, 2002, 03:31 PM

AC- I'm trying to remember which Magazine I read it in. It was either American Rifleman or US NEWS. The Soviet "Women" were apparently highly effective Snipers in WWII. The story was on some Soviet woman that killed over 100 Germans with her 22LR rifle. I'll see if I can do a little more research into where I read it.

Crimper-D · January 21, 2002, 03:45 PM

.22's were used in the USSR, not by Red Army snipers, but by NKVD death squads who used .22's for executions where they didn't want excess noise to call attention to their activities. There were instances of them being used in Gulags and in Soviet prisons.
Interestingly, the postwar Russian TOZ series trainers and match rifles will stabelize the heavy long Aguela 60gr bullet in at least their #8 trainers and #12 target rifles. Despite a 1:14" twist rate, these rifles have a very short chamber throat and the long bullet of the SSS 'engraves' lightly on the lands of the rifeling of the rifles bore, eleminating 'jump' in the chamber after ignition and stabelizing the bullets to the axis of the bore.
Very accurate out to 75 yds with this combination,(I have a TOZ8 & a 12)...haven't shot either at 100yds - yet.

orlando5 · January 21, 2002, 07:29 PM

This is what a .30 cal do to a penny @100 yard

http://docilekids.com/temp/7.62x54R-1%20Hole.jpg

Compare to a .22lr @100 yard.

http://pound.docilekids.com/

.22lr bends or crack (deflection) them.

Anyway, let me clarify my last post. Yes a .22lr can kill a person @100 yard but not with one shot. It will probably take a few shots to do it @100 yards. I honestly think without a doubt that a .22lr will not penetrate a human skull @100 yard.

Like the other poster said, the .22lr are use as a sniper weapon because of low flash and sound signature.

Ewok_Guy · January 21, 2002, 07:34 PM

I've tried countless times to shoot a hole through a quarter with a .30 cal, but I can never recover them.
After about $10 worth I didn't know weather to laugh or cry.

Keith J · January 21, 2002, 08:09 PM

What are we trying to prove here? The little .22 lr IS lethal at distance. I have seen these completely penetrate 1" of pine at 300 yards, something my 1100 FPS air rifle can barely do. The air rifle is claimed to be lethal to 50 yards...

The entire deer population of Northern Mexico was wiped out by pesants armed with .22 SHORTS!

orlando5 · January 21, 2002, 09:57 PM

Quote:

I have seen these completely penetrate 1" of pine at 300 yards

How many people believe this statement is true here? Just use some common sense.

Jamie Young · January 21, 2002, 10:09 PM

Well Jody Hudson and I are going to find out this weekend RIGHT Jody!!!

Ewok_Guy · January 21, 2002, 10:10 PM

I believe.

orlando5 · January 21, 2002, 10:45 PM

You got a video camera? If you do, tape it. Make sure it is 300 yards (274.32 m).

You know what so funny about this. Everyone bitch about .223 are under powered and yet everyone thinks that the .22lr are over power. I find this very amusing.

riddleofsteel · January 21, 2002, 11:07 PM

We had a .22 Springfield bolt action with a scope set up to hit targets at 100 yards. Lots of fun while you wait for a barrel to cool (doing load testing). It was no trouble to hit the targets, especially from a benchrest. How much damge you could do to "someone" would largely depend on if you could hit them in the eye, artery or spine. Anywhere else would be a .22 subcutaneous lead injection and not much else.
.22 rimfires are famous for thier abilities to be silenced to the degree where the target (usually within 50 to 75 yards) can not even hear the noise. Bear in mind the ammo must, by nature be subsonic to be truley silenced.
My response to this thread is that for eyeball shots or annoyance type silent fire at targets less than half a football field away the .22 rimfire will do just fine. However, for greater distance common sense would dictate a little more OOOHMPA.

Jamie Young · January 21, 2002, 11:39 PM

To make a long story short....

When I was 7yrs old My best friend was shot with a pellet gun 7 times at about 15feet. He was in critical condition for several days and still has 3 pellets stuck in him. They were too close to his spine to operate. It was a Semi auto Pistol (I'm not sure the model). His dumb brother didn't think it was loaded and kept firing at him to scare him. The 22LR at 500yds probable has more energy than that pellet gun had at 15ft.

Wait a minute!! Actually it was a BB gun not a Pellet gun. I think you cocked it once and then it was spring loaded. I know it wasn't a CO2 or ten pump on.

Navy joe · January 22, 2002, 12:50 AM

One realizes that the on target energy is not substantial. However, a sniper that can deliver undetected hits is psychologically more detrimental to an enemy group than the dead sniper who got in one fabulously lethal shot with his 14" barrel .300 Win Mag.
I can fathom uses for the little gun, not the least of which would be suckering enough people into a scene in attendance of the wounded to make blowing a trap such as a M18 or opening up with a heavy precision gun worthwhile. Or maybe just shooting a piece of commo gear to get someone to come investigate. If you shoot someone at 300yds with a .22 they may die, they may not. Either way a military sniper accomplishes many of his goals pursuant to enemy morale, engagement of resources, alteration of patrol patterns etc. Best part is they are alive to take another shot. I like the Hathcock analogy to golf clubs, the right tool for the job. I'd hate to be the guy with the Barrett as my only tool, when all you've got is a hammer...

As for the great stopping power debate types, once again, we're talking target punching or military sniping, not deer hunting where a clean kill is imperative. If a .22 is so damn ineffective, please go to the 300yd line with your beach chair and latest copy of Guns & Blammo. I'm sure the little bugers can be hand caught out there. Please consider the same challenge with 1000 yd .308 or 1500 yd .45-70. Is it ideal? No. Can it be done? Yes, as long as you don't mind 40 ft bullet drop.

Jamie Young · January 22, 2002, 12:54 AM

EXACTLY !!!

^WHAT HE SAID^

Deadman · January 22, 2002, 06:43 PM

Also, lets not forget that alot of the SHTF advice here on TFL revolves around the idea of 'shoot and scoot'.

So what better way to 'shoot and scoot' then to use a suppressed .22 rifle that will be basically undetectable by ones enemies.

bsmart · January 22, 2002, 08:29 PM

The much under-rated 22LR has been achieving excellent results for years. The calibre itself lends to the diversity of its applications. In the Sub-Sonic mode, it is a very quiet round that, given a little background noise, is extremely hard to detect. Using a round called a Z Long, the loudest noise is the firing pin hitting the rim of the bullet. Using a more powerful round, of which there is plenty of variety, the humble 22LR can perform in the hands of an expert out to 200 metres and achieve a kill, no problems at all. Even then, the report of the weapon is nowhere near as loud as one of its more powerful cousins in say, 223 or 22Hornet. This is probably one of the reasons why the Soviet Snipers during WWII did so well against the Germans. Soviet Women played a big part in the history of the Soviet Sniper during WWII. Some achieved some amazing kills with the 22LR.
More recently, during the Cold War, one of the prefered assasins weapons of the CIA was the Colt Woodsman. With a 6" barrel, it had excellent accuracy for a 22LR handgun, and, in the hands of an expert, was deadly. The Sayeret version of the 10-22 with the integral silencer is a very practical weapon that is being utilised regularly to achieve desired results for the Israelis.
So, in short, the 22LR has proved its worth many times over and will continue to do so for some time to come.

Johnno

twoblink · January 23, 2002, 04:33 PM

The Israelis LOVE this round. 10/22's for rifle issues are common, and 22/45's for officers and elite forces are common as well.

Read some article, in the forests of Chiapuas Mexico, some guy took out quite a few Federalies with a scoped 10/22 sitting in the trees.. I think the body count was 39. Eyeball shots..

I was hitting a 24" target from 260+ yards with my 22/45!! :-) So it's possible... but from a rifle, under 100 yards, .22LR's are deadly. I LOVE THEM!

Anybody who doesn't own a .22 pistol AND rifle, should. It's the only way to practice. You take the recoil out of the equation, so no flinching..

Albert

Keith J · January 23, 2002, 04:55 PM

Quote:

How many people believe this statement is true here? Just use some common sense.

True? I saw a .22 lr bullet partially embedded in the 4x4 post after the 1x4 crosses were pulled off. There was a corresponding hole in the 1 x 4. It was no WMRF as it had a plain lead base, no jacket.

One stinking inch of pine isn't a tough barrier to penetrate and yes, I have seen the effects. FYI, here in Texas, the hardcore German settlers to this day compete with the .22 LR at 200 yards!

Poodleshooter · January 23, 2002, 06:14 PM

My only experience with a .22lr at 300yds was in attempting to shoot at a 2'x2' steel gong. We were able to hit it with a Rem 597, after adjusting our POA to about 12' above the target. At that range, the bad SD's and ES's of the cheap rimfire ammo become really apparent.

orlando5 · January 23, 2002, 10:45 PM

It is very very hard for me to believe that at 300 yard (274.32 m) that a 40gr bullet with a velocity less then 600ft/s and an energy impact of less then 30ft can penetrate one inch (25.4mm) of pine. I am not a rocket scientist but I am not dumb either. At the range we observed that .22lr had a hard time penetrating 2mm of fiberglass plastic @100 yard. Some did penetrate the plastic but other was “capture/held” by it.

I am not saying you guys are wrong but you got to realize that 1” is very wide. I do not believe that a .22lr will penetrate 1” of pinewood.

Honest folks if the .22lr is just so good a sniper round then why not use it as the standard sniper round instead of the .308. Replace the .223 with .22lr. in the M16. This will save taxpayers a lot of money.

The .22lr is a great tool for very close range assassination. The Soviet uses it in WWII because in most cases it is the only rifle that was available to them.

Jamie Young · January 24, 2002, 12:25 AM

For you........

I'm going to go out to Home Depot Tomorrow and see if I can get a hold of a piece of Pine 1 inch think. And Jody Hudson and I will shoot it at 300yds. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know what the results will be but WE WILL find out this weekend.

Navy joe · January 24, 2002, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Honest folks if the .22lr is just so good a sniper round then why not use it as the standard sniper round instead of the .308. Replace the .223 with .22lr. in the M16. This will save taxpayers a lot of money.

Arrrrgh! What part about just another tool didn't we get? Different rifles for different tasks. If you are making like a bush 50-200 yds away from a enemy with others possibly nearby do you:

A) Light him up with your Barrett M-82A1

B) .300 Win Mag superdupertactical sniper rifle

C) a supressed subsonic .22 and let them figure where the shot came from.

I hate to sound like an acolyte of our former resident Harlan, but .22s do have their "tactical" :barf: uses.

Jake 98c/11b · January 24, 2002, 05:40 AM

The russians now have a purpose built .22lr sniper rifle for special operations use, it is the SV-99. In Chechnya they took some signifigant losses from the locals with .22 sporters and biathlon rifles. Even without an improvised suppressor they were hard to locate since they often fired from well within a room. Used within it's limitations it is great and it just might be the right tool for the job. If it's all you have you choose your fight carefully.

scotjute · January 24, 2002, 10:42 AM

Be sure to keep us posted on your results this
next weekend. I've been curious about
using .22lr for over 50 yd shots, but never enough
to try it.
I've shot lots of small -medium animals with
.22lr, but basically consider it most appropiate for
rabbit/armadillo or smaller critters. It simply lacks
the killing power IMO to deliver clean and effective
kills for larger animals.
The beauty of this weapon for SHTF scenarios is the
cheapness and lightweightness of the ammo and
weapons. Never thought of it using it for anything
longer that 50 yds.

jimsbowies · January 24, 2002, 10:52 AM

Ask some guys who were in the PHoenix or Phung Hoang programs in Vietnam about Ruger 22's, silenced....

NUFF SAID!

Jamie Young · January 24, 2002, 11:25 AM

Why don't you Post your Email address or allow PM's? I was hoping that since you switched your Name from WalterGAII to Absolom you would have changed your attitude. Guess not

January 21, 2002, 03:45 PM	#27
Crimper-D Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: The Bearflag Republic Posts: 579	Sorry I can't remember the source, but.... .22's were used in the USSR, not by Red Army snipers, but by NKVD death squads who used .22's for executions where they didn't want excess noise to call attention to their activities. There were instances of them being used in Gulags and in Soviet prisons. Interestingly, the postwar Russian TOZ series trainers and match rifles will stabelize the heavy long Aguela 60gr bullet in at least their #8 trainers and #12 target rifles. Despite a 1:14" twist rate, these rifles have a very short chamber throat and the long bullet of the SSS 'engraves' lightly on the lands of the rifeling of the rifles bore, eleminating 'jump' in the chamber after ignition and stabelizing the bullets to the axis of the bore. Very accurate out to 75 yds with this combination,(I have a TOZ8 & a 12)...haven't shot either at 100yds - yet.

January 21, 2002, 08:09 PM	#30
Keith J Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2000 Posts: 469	Coins as new test media? What are we trying to prove here? The little .22 lr IS lethal at distance. I have seen these completely penetrate 1" of pine at 300 yards, something my 1100 FPS air rifle can barely do. The air rifle is claimed to be lethal to 50 yards... The entire deer population of Northern Mexico was wiped out by pesants armed with .22 SHORTS!

January 21, 2002, 11:07 PM	#35
riddleofsteel Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2000 Location: above ground Posts: 1,558	We had a .22 Springfield bolt action with a scope set up to hit targets at 100 yards. Lots of fun while you wait for a barrel to cool (doing load testing). It was no trouble to hit the targets, especially from a benchrest. How much damge you could do to "someone" would largely depend on if you could hit them in the eye, artery or spine. Anywhere else would be a .22 subcutaneous lead injection and not much else. .22 rimfires are famous for thier abilities to be silenced to the degree where the target (usually within 50 to 75 yards) can not even hear the noise. Bear in mind the ammo must, by nature be subsonic to be truley silenced. My response to this thread is that for eyeball shots or annoyance type silent fire at targets less than half a football field away the .22 rimfire will do just fine. However, for greater distance common sense would dictate a little more OOOHMPA. __________________ For him there was always the discipline of steel.

January 23, 2002, 04:33 PM	#41
twoblink Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 1999 Location: Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 2,025	The Israelis LOVE this round. 10/22's for rifle issues are common, and 22/45's for officers and elite forces are common as well. Read some article, in the forests of Chiapuas Mexico, some guy took out quite a few Federalies with a scoped 10/22 sitting in the trees.. I think the body count was 39. Eyeball shots.. I was hitting a 24" target from 260+ yards with my 22/45!! :-) So it's possible... but from a rifle, under 100 yards, .22LR's are deadly. I LOVE THEM! Anybody who doesn't own a .22 pistol AND rifle, should. It's the only way to practice. You take the recoil out of the equation, so no flinching.. Albert __________________ "An unarmed society is one that's ripe for tyranny and oppression."

January 24, 2002, 12:25 AM	#45
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Orlando5 For you........ I'm going to go out to Home Depot Tomorrow and see if I can get a hold of a piece of Pine 1 inch think. And Jody Hudson and I will shoot it at 300yds. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know what the results will be but WE WILL find out this weekend.

January 21, 2002, 03:31 PM	#26
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	AC- I'm trying to remember which Magazine I read it in. It was either American Rifleman or US NEWS. The Soviet "Women" were apparently highly effective Snipers in WWII. The story was on some Soviet woman that killed over 100 Germans with her 22LR rifle. I'll see if I can do a little more research into where I read it.

January 21, 2002, 07:29 PM	#28
orlando5 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2001 Location: Somewhere in wonderland. Posts: 699	This is what a .30 cal do to a penny @100 yard http://docilekids.com/temp/7.62x54R-1%20Hole.jpg Compare to a .22lr @100 yard. http://pound.docilekids.com/ .22lr bends or crack (deflection) them. Anyway, let me clarify my last post. Yes a .22lr can kill a person @100 yard but not with one shot. It will probably take a few shots to do it @100 yards. I honestly think without a doubt that a .22lr will not penetrate a human skull @100 yard. Like the other poster said, the .22lr are use as a sniper weapon because of low flash and sound signature.

January 21, 2002, 07:34 PM	#29
Ewok_Guy Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2001 Location: Endor Posts: 1,664	I've tried countless times to shoot a hole through a quarter with a .30 cal, but I can never recover them. After about $10 worth I didn't know weather to laugh or cry.

January 21, 2002, 10:09 PM	#32
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Well Jody Hudson and I are going to find out this weekend RIGHT Jody!!!

January 21, 2002, 10:10 PM	#33
Ewok_Guy Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2001 Location: Endor Posts: 1,664	I believe.

January 21, 2002, 10:45 PM	#34
orlando5 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2001 Location: Somewhere in wonderland. Posts: 699	You got a video camera? If you do, tape it. Make sure it is 300 yards (274.32 m). You know what so funny about this. Everyone bitch about .223 are under powered and yet everyone thinks that the .22lr are over power. I find this very amusing.

January 21, 2002, 11:39 PM	#36
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	To make a long story short.... When I was 7yrs old My best friend was shot with a pellet gun 7 times at about 15feet. He was in critical condition for several days and still has 3 pellets stuck in him. They were too close to his spine to operate. It was a Semi auto Pistol (I'm not sure the model). His dumb brother didn't think it was loaded and kept firing at him to scare him. The 22LR at 500yds probable has more energy than that pellet gun had at 15ft. Wait a minute!! Actually it was a BB gun not a Pellet gun. I think you cocked it once and then it was spring loaded. I know it wasn't a CO2 or ten pump on.

January 22, 2002, 12:50 AM	#37
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	One realizes that the on target energy is not substantial. However, a sniper that can deliver undetected hits is psychologically more detrimental to an enemy group than the dead sniper who got in one fabulously lethal shot with his 14" barrel .300 Win Mag. I can fathom uses for the little gun, not the least of which would be suckering enough people into a scene in attendance of the wounded to make blowing a trap such as a M18 or opening up with a heavy precision gun worthwhile. Or maybe just shooting a piece of commo gear to get someone to come investigate. If you shoot someone at 300yds with a .22 they may die, they may not. Either way a military sniper accomplishes many of his goals pursuant to enemy morale, engagement of resources, alteration of patrol patterns etc. Best part is they are alive to take another shot. I like the Hathcock analogy to golf clubs, the right tool for the job. I'd hate to be the guy with the Barrett as my only tool, when all you've got is a hammer... As for the great stopping power debate types, once again, we're talking target punching or military sniping, not deer hunting where a clean kill is imperative. If a .22 is so damn ineffective, please go to the 300yd line with your beach chair and latest copy of Guns & Blammo. I'm sure the little bugers can be hand caught out there. Please consider the same challenge with 1000 yd .308 or 1500 yd .45-70. Is it ideal? No. Can it be done? Yes, as long as you don't mind 40 ft bullet drop.

January 22, 2002, 12:54 AM	#38
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	EXACTLY !!! ^WHAT HE SAID^

January 22, 2002, 06:43 PM	#39
Deadman Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2000 Location: Sydney Posts: 538	Also, lets not forget that alot of the SHTF advice here on TFL revolves around the idea of 'shoot and scoot'. So what better way to 'shoot and scoot' then to use a suppressed .22 rifle that will be basically undetectable by ones enemies.

January 22, 2002, 08:29 PM	#40
bsmart Member Join Date: January 7, 2002 Location: Oz Posts: 35	The much under-rated 22LR has been achieving excellent results for years. The calibre itself lends to the diversity of its applications. In the Sub-Sonic mode, it is a very quiet round that, given a little background noise, is extremely hard to detect. Using a round called a Z Long, the loudest noise is the firing pin hitting the rim of the bullet. Using a more powerful round, of which there is plenty of variety, the humble 22LR can perform in the hands of an expert out to 200 metres and achieve a kill, no problems at all. Even then, the report of the weapon is nowhere near as loud as one of its more powerful cousins in say, 223 or 22Hornet. This is probably one of the reasons why the Soviet Snipers during WWII did so well against the Germans. Soviet Women played a big part in the history of the Soviet Sniper during WWII. Some achieved some amazing kills with the 22LR. More recently, during the Cold War, one of the prefered assasins weapons of the CIA was the Colt Woodsman. With a 6" barrel, it had excellent accuracy for a 22LR handgun, and, in the hands of an expert, was deadly. The Sayeret version of the 10-22 with the integral silencer is a very practical weapon that is being utilised regularly to achieve desired results for the Israelis. So, in short, the 22LR has proved its worth many times over and will continue to do so for some time to come. Johnno

January 23, 2002, 06:14 PM	#43
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	My only experience with a .22lr at 300yds was in attempting to shoot at a 2'x2' steel gong. We were able to hit it with a Rem 597, after adjusting our POA to about 12' above the target. At that range, the bad SD's and ES's of the cheap rimfire ammo become really apparent.

January 23, 2002, 10:45 PM	#44
orlando5 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2001 Location: Somewhere in wonderland. Posts: 699	It is very very hard for me to believe that at 300 yard (274.32 m) that a 40gr bullet with a velocity less then 600ft/s and an energy impact of less then 30ft can penetrate one inch (25.4mm) of pine. I am not a rocket scientist but I am not dumb either. At the range we observed that .22lr had a hard time penetrating 2mm of fiberglass plastic @100 yard. Some did penetrate the plastic but other was “capture/held” by it. I am not saying you guys are wrong but you got to realize that 1” is very wide. I do not believe that a .22lr will penetrate 1” of pinewood. Honest folks if the .22lr is just so good a sniper round then why not use it as the standard sniper round instead of the .308. Replace the .223 with .22lr. in the M16. This will save taxpayers a lot of money. The .22lr is a great tool for very close range assassination. The Soviet uses it in WWII because in most cases it is the only rifle that was available to them.

January 24, 2002, 05:40 AM	#47
Jake 98c/11b Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 1999 Posts: 471	The russians now have a purpose built .22lr sniper rifle for special operations use, it is the SV-99. In Chechnya they took some signifigant losses from the locals with .22 sporters and biathlon rifles. Even without an improvised suppressor they were hard to locate since they often fired from well within a room. Used within it's limitations it is great and it just might be the right tool for the job. If it's all you have you choose your fight carefully.

January 24, 2002, 10:42 AM	#48
scotjute Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Location: texas Posts: 260	Soda Pop Be sure to keep us posted on your results this next weekend. I've been curious about using .22lr for over 50 yd shots, but never enough to try it. I've shot lots of small -medium animals with .22lr, but basically consider it most appropiate for rabbit/armadillo or smaller critters. It simply lacks the killing power IMO to deliver clean and effective kills for larger animals. The beauty of this weapon for SHTF scenarios is the cheapness and lightweightness of the ammo and weapons. Never thought of it using it for anything longer that 50 yds.

January 24, 2002, 10:52 AM	#49
jimsbowies Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Charlotte Posts: 332	Phoenix Ask some guys who were in the PHoenix or Phung Hoang programs in Vietnam about Ruger 22's, silenced.... NUFF SAID!

January 24, 2002, 11:25 AM	#50
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Absolom Why don't you Post your Email address or allow PM's? I was hoping that since you switched your Name from WalterGAII to Absolom you would have changed your attitude. Guess not Last edited by Jamie Young; January 26, 2002 at 02:24 AM.