Conversion to Dillon (possibly), What About Dies?

[jmorris]

Therefore the choice is to have the powder check or a bullet feeder (or possibly lose the separate crimp).

Maybe, there are other feed/seat dies out there, some really good ones for rifle bullets. MA Systems had a commercial pneumatic bullet feeder that works in much the same way Lee’s plastic finger bullet feeder does, with a standard seating die. If you could get the Lee one to work better than the one I had, you would be set as well.

But sure, if you never use a progressive you wouldn’t know how much better than it was over a single stage or turret, same goes for using case and bullet feeders.

[jmorris]

Yes, the Dillon case feeder is a very good option / ...the 650 is really designed to be run with the case feeder ( with sta 1 ...on the back side - at the right )...

I have never seen a 650 without everything to take the cases, base down, and move one at a time with each stroke of the handle, from the tube and into the shell plate.

What they sell as the optional “case feeder” is actually just a collator or case feed, feeder. It just drops the cases base down into the tube.

There are also folks that have saved the extra money and adapted the Lee collators to Dillon machines.

Here is one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGzmlvhcJyk

[JeepHammer]

It's my PERSONAL OPINION Dillion machines are for people that are serious.
I'm like most people, I tried other machines, but as volume went up the glitches and limitations showed up and got real annoying.
If you leave the machine sit for a year at a time, probably not worth tooling up a Dillon.
If you use it a lot, that spare parts kit and extras are worth gold.

Dillon IS a mass produced machine, it will need tuning, a few gadgets as you get rolling faster & faster, but it WILL keep up with muscle power with very little work. My XL650s ran out of the box, ran a lot better with a day of tuning.
Let's face it, at 350 an hour it will keep up with just tuning, get up to the advertised 600-650 and hour, and you will be experienced enough to identify glitches and fix them.

As for dies & other accessories, most won't work or won't work well.
The dies interchange, but many won't run all that well, sticking issues, small mouth/misalignment issues, etc.
I don't consider dies sacred, so I modify to work where I need them.
A little trim here, a little polish there and most can be made to run mostly trouble free.

*IF* I could go back in time, I would have jumped from the first Lee 'Turret' right to a Dillon 650, would have saved a crap load of time & money on other progressives that simply can't be made or kept reliable with thousands of rounds a month.

With Dillon, cleaning & lubrication! Keep it lubed.
I clean anytime it stops, a quick pass with the vacuum nozzle, a little brush here & there and you will avoid full tear down & cleaning for a year at a time.
I lube every couple thousand rounds (if you miss one it's no big deal), a little lube at several intervals is much better than a lot of lube at the start.

The aftermarket supports the 650 pretty good, lots of little upgrades. Rollers in friction applications, adjustable parts where Dillion didn't put one in for adjusting to the Nth degree, some of it works, some of it doesn't, some is just silly...

When you get rolling, the 'Extras' come in REAL handy!
Extra primer tubes in particular, spare parts for when you break or loose those little SOBs,
EVERYONE gets it rolling, then tried to see how many they can load, and it WILL load everything in the house! Once it runs smooth, it's addictive!

There are motor kits out there, I went with a motor on a 650, but I personally think the frame isn't strong enough, and the machine doesn't run on roller bearing, so I stopped when I noticed excessive wear.
Now, if you talk Super 1050....

[Doublehelix3216]

Dillon case feeder is a must IMHO.

Lee dies work fine.

Rather than the Dillon Powder check die (that buzzes when there is a problem), I use the RCBS Lock-Out die. This actually locks the press so you cannot advance the shells to the next position until you fix the problem. Love it. Genius design!!!

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/53...s-lock-out-die

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Doublehelix3216

Rather than the Dillon Powder check die (that buzzes when there is a problem), I use the RCBS Lock-Out die. This actually locks the press so you cannot advance the shells to the next position until you fix the problem. Love it. Genius design!!!

Is it as sensitive as the Dillon one? I saw a YouTube vid where it was indicating an issue when the charge was 0.1gn off.

[SonOfScubaDiver]

Wow. That Dillon in those videos looks pretty cool. But for me it would be like buying a decked out Corvette to go to the grocery store! lol I don't know that I will ever load more than a couple hundred rounds at a time.

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by SonOfScubaDiver

Wow. That Dillon in those videos looks pretty cool. But for me it would be like buying a decked out Corvette to go to the grocery store! lol I don't know that I will ever load more than a couple hundred rounds at a time.

You say that like it would be a bad idea to take a Corvette to the store.

[Jim Watson]

I don't load more than a couple hundred at a time. My Dillons let me load them quickly and move on to other stuff. My goal is to replace what I shot last week, and provide what I expect to shoot next week. If I do this every week, I accumulate a reserve. But I am not a case at a sitting loader.

[jmorris]

I don't know that I will ever load more than a couple hundred rounds at a time.

Me too, most of the times. I have less than 10 minutes in the process to load, casegauge and box 200 rounds for this weeks match.

When I load with slower machines, it takes longer, sometimes much longer.

[Master Blaster]

Skip all the extra complexity for now. Buy a Dillon 550 and skip the case feeder. The 550 is very well designed and you will be able to make 400 per hour if you are production minded. Get the 550 and some Dillon dies. It will cost less and be easier to set up. Manual indexing and checking your powder throws with a good light mounted over the press works just fine.

[disseminator]

I have never regretted buying my 550B. It's a great machine and it's MUCH cheaper to set up than the 650. I would only get a 650 if you are sure you will get a case feeder and maybe a bullet feeder too.

Otherwise, you are much dollars ahead with the 550 and it can actually use a case feeder for pistol if you want that later on.

550.

Also, get the Dillon sizing dies for sure. I use Forster Comp Seaters for rifle on my 550 and Redding comp dies for pistols. Mostly because they are easy to adjust in the tight space of a progressive press.

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Master Blaster

Skip all the extra complexity for now. Buy a Dillon 550 and skip the case feeder. The 550 is very well designed and you will be able to make 400 per hour if you are production minded. Get the 550 and some Dillon dies. It will cost less and be easier to set up. Manual indexing and checking your powder throws with a good light mounted over the press works just fine.

I just can't see that happening. The reason I was originally looking to replace my turret press was because the indexing is not always 100% spot on and I have to index by hand. If I was to drop that much cabbage on a press that did not index itself I'm not sure I would see it as a huge upgrade.

[Road_Clam]

Use LEE and RCBS dies all the time with my 650. Dillon dies are no better or worse performing than the other brands, but much more pricey. LEE dies are shorter OAL as others have stated. You simply thread the locking ring on the bottom of the shell plate instead of the top if you find you can't use the lock ring on the top. I do like the Dillon dies's quick change seating die insert that can be flipped from RN to SWC profiled bullets. This is a nice option for loading different cast bullet profiles. I initially used the optional powder check alarm but quickly realized I didn't need it for straight wall pistol. I prefer to leave that station empty and just visually confirm my powder charge. I do use the powder check for bottleneck rifle, especially loading uncommon recipies where a double charge could be very dangerous. A double charge on the 650 is *almost* impossible unless the user somehow re-indexes the shell plate backwards.

The case feeder option is one of those "must have" type options. Yes you can start without one but it's a substantial hindrance in both efficient speed and having to manually load casings AND bullets creates additional unwanted distractions for the new Dillon handloader. There is no doubt a lengthly learning curve to efficiently setup and operate the Dillon 650, but while it was very frustrating for me initially, now a few years later have a solid understanding of function and how to quickly correct loading issues. It's very gratifying when you have the 650 tuned perfectly and it bangs out ammo with perfect precision and repeat-ability.

[ed308]

When I bought my 650, I used it for about a week before ordering the case feeder. My left armed thanked me when I ordered the case feeder. Having the case feeder install allowed me to work faster since I could keep my eyes glue to the shell plate and not need to constantly drop cases down the feed tube. The 650 does have a learning curve, especially for someone like me since I had no reloading experience when I purchased mine. Took me a while to figure out how it worked. And even longer to get it smoothed out and not flipping powder every time the shell plate indexed. For pumping out ammo, I like my 650 with the powder check system and case feeder. I use mine for pumping out .223/5.56, 6.8, .308, .45, and .40 currently.

[jmorris]

I just can't see that happening. The reason I was originally looking to replace my turret press was because the indexing is not always 100% spot on and I have to index by hand. If I was to drop that much cabbage on a press that did not index itself I'm not sure I would see it as a huge upgrade.

The huge advantage of a progressive is that you are doing all operations with 1 stroke vs the turret where you are having to stroke the machine once for each operation.

I will admit, I am not fond of the concept of a progressive that does not index itself automatically and I owned more than one of every Dillon except the 550, a couple of LNL’s, an RCBS progressive and even a Lee progressive before I finally bought a 550.

That said, if you can walk and chew gum at the same time, it’s not that big of a deal. You stroke the press and with your left hand (the one that has the bullet you’re going to put on the case at #3) indexes the shell plate, you place bullet with left hand and another case with the right one before completing another stroke and repeat.

Worried about double charging? Just make sure you have placed a bullet and inserted a new case with each pull of the handle. At that point, the only way you will have any issues would be if you can seat two bullets or manage to get two cases into station #1. Another one of the “problems” people that have never used one, bring up.

[jmorris]

The advantages of such a simple machine is the ability to swap primer sizes quickly with ease.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCGV-JPYaE

Or do a caliber conversion without having to mess with all the case feed components.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=689Wzn4qY3w

I will admit I can’t load as fast on my 550 as I can on one of my bullet/case fed 650 or 1050’s but change the challenge to load 200 of “A”, 300 of “B” and 100 of “C” the 500 will leave them in the dust. As the advantage in loading speed is lost during conversion. I can load, casegauge and box 1000 rounds on one of my 1050’s in less than an hour but it takes more than 2 minutes to convert one to load something else.

[LBussy]

There's a certain "discipline" I assume will be required when I get a new press. That being loading enough ammo to be able to work in cycles: A months worth of .45 then a month's worth of 9mm. I expect I'll continue to load my .38/.357 on the turret as I don't go through as much ammo in that caliber. That should minimize the impact of caliber conversion.

I just can't see purchasing a 550 if I can have a 650 for a couple hundred more (minus accessories).

[BigJimP]

Most of us that use higher end progressive machines...( Dillon 650, Hornaday LNL, etc )...load in batches of one caliber at a time. 20 boxes or so at least at one time ( 1,000 rds ) ...and then we box them up and put them in inventory to pull from for range use.

When I change calibers, even if I'm not changing primer size / I take a few minutes to clean the press thoroughly, lube, etc...so its not a big deal to change calibers.../ it makes no sense to me to just run 200 rds of one caliber at a time.

Even if you don't shoot .38 spl much ....you can still convert press to .38 spl and run 20 boxes...even if you don't use them up for a year, so what.

My press stays set up all the time...no kids around anymore / if grandkids are here, my shop is off limits unless an adult is with them ( and its locked )...but 90% of the time its just me and my wife here...and she won't fool with it / so I leave the press set up on whatever I run thru it and shoot 75% of the time which is 9mm. I loaded 1,000 rds of 9mm this am after my chores were done...going to range later with 6 boxes for some tactical drills...but press is sitting there ( 650 with case feeder ) with 9mm cases in each station.

[jmorris]

I just can't see purchasing a 550 if I can have a 650 for a couple hundred more (minus accessories).

It’s really what you want to do, how much money you want to invest, and how much time you are willing to spend.

I don’t like messing with the priming systems on the 650 or 1050 and once I get everything running smoothly, I really don’t like changing calibers very much. That leads me to having several of each for my most popular calibers/loads. So if I want to go from 9mm to 45, 40 or 223, all I have to do is scoot my chair over. Makes for a very fast caliber change with no fuss but also an expensive one.

No one knows what you want to do better than you but I use the 550 for the rounds I load more of than I want to load on a SS or turret but not enough of to convert a 650 or 1050 over. If the 650 or 1050 were as cheap and efficient at caliber conversions as the 550 is, I wouldn’t own a 550 but they are not.

[BigJimP]

Just so we are clear....the 550:

a. does not auto index, you have to index it manually
b. has 4 stations, not 5 like 650, and the 5th is needed for the powder
check die. Some users of 550 will combine stations for seating and
final crimping into one - and install a powder check in 550 / but Dillon
does not recommend it.

Manually indexing introduces another place for human error in my view. As you perform very repetitive actions...its easy to zone out / and perhaps not index the shell plate. The powder check doesn't mean you can't load good quality ammo without it ...but it provides a significant additional safety factor on powder drops. The powder check dies will pick up a variation in a powder drop of as little as 0.2gr ...and your eyes cannot do that on a fine grain powder.

So its not just about cost...at least to me / the 650 has some very desireable features in my view.

The 1050 is considered a commercial machine...and does not come with the No BS Warranty that Dillon is famous for. ( it only has a 1 yr warranty ).

All of the Dillon machines are solid machines...SDB, 550, 650 and 1050....but they handle the steps differently ...use different parts, etc...so there are differences in them besides just speed and cost.

[jmorris]

Some users of 550 will combine stations for seating and
final crimping into one - and install a powder check in 550 / but Dillon
does not recommend it.

Manually indexing introduces another place for human error in my view. As you perform very repetitive actions...its easy to zone out / and perhaps not index the shell plate.

Very, very few 550 users do that and modifications are required to even use a Dillon powder check on a 550.

Manually doing anything introduces human nature by definition. That’s why the bulk of what I shoot is loaded on one of these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

That said there are costs associated with automation, why a progressive will cost more than a single stage, given equal quality.

While there are differences between them besides just speed and cost, buying decisions generally factor in those two greatly.

[Damon555]

Skip all the extra complexity for now. Buy a Dillon 550 and skip the case feeder. The 550 is very well designed and you will be able to make 400 per hour if you are production minded. Get the 550 and some Dillon dies. It will cost less and be easier to set up. Manual indexing and checking your powder throws with a good light mounted over the press works just fine.

Agreed......skip all the extras until you know for sure that you want them. Placing a bullet on the charged case and inserting a spent case to be resized and deprimed is not difficult. There's no need to purchase extra equipment up front if you aren't even sure that you're going to need them.

I just can't see that happening. The reason I was originally looking to replace my turret press was because the indexing is not always 100% spot on and I have to index by hand

When adjusted correctly the Dillon will never miss its spot. Tens of thousands of rounds have been loaded on my 550b and the indexing has been perfect 100% of the time.

The manual index function will not be a problem if you load properly. I check each and every powder charge visually......it's an old habit from my single stage press days that hasn't been lost in the process.

[disseminator]

There's a certain "discipline" I assume will be required when I get a new press. That being loading enough ammo to be able to work in cycles: A months worth of .45 then a month's worth of 9mm. I expect I'll continue to load my .38/.357 on the turret as I don't go through as much ammo in that caliber. That should minimize the impact of caliber conversion.

I just can't see purchasing a 550 if I can have a 650 for a couple hundred more (minus accessories).

Look at the total cost of ownership and the 650 is more like double the price or more. Caliber conversions, case feeder, bullet feeder, those are major additional costs. No one is saying NOT to get the 650, but do so with your eyes wide open so you don't get sticker shock.

As mentioned, there is no issue with the indexing on the 550 if adjusted correctly. There is a large ball bearing between the shell plate and the top of the ram that will click into place very obviously with each quarter turn of the shell plate.

Get what you want though.

[LBussy]

Maybe I shared my concern poorly: I am not concerned about the 550's ability to index properly. I am comparing the need to manually index with having to do that on my turret press. That's one of the things that I dislike about my current setup, therefore moving to a relatively expensive setup that did not index would not be the upgrade I am looking for.

I appreciate the comments about the "hidden costs" of owning the 650. I will take those into consideration when I plan.

[jmorris]

And we are back to post #40.

Just get the 650, run the dies you have now in it, if you have any problems you can try other dies. If it turns out you don’t like the press, just get a different one.