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Old July 14, 2017, 07:03 PM   #26
reddog81
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Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
The beauty of a real turret press (Lee doesn't count), is that you can have five, six, or seven single-stage presses set up at the same time, while only taking up the bench space of a single press. Actual loading process efficiency can be completely ignored, and that's still a very nice benefit.
I'd rather have one progressive press over a turret or seven single stage presses. Switching dies on a LNL takes under 5 minutes and that is if you are changing out primer tubes. Switching out the shell plate and all the dies takes about 2 minutes. I could easily do 20 rounds of 3 different calibers in half the time of a single stage.
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Old July 14, 2017, 08:42 PM   #27
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After many years I finally bought a Dillon RL550B. Best move I ever made. I kept my Lyman turret press for rifle and Misc. pistol loads. I use the 550 for .45, 9 mm and .38. I recently bought 2 more powder measures so I'm good to go. If you are a blaster with an AR you can even load 5.56 on it. The 550 costs a little more than a Lee but I think it's worth it. I clean the fired brass then load it. I don't find it necessary to clean the primer pockets on pistol brass. The main reason I held off so long was I feared changing calibers would be a major problem, it isn't. Go for it, I know others who are happy with a different Dillon or a Hornady. I don't know anyone who is really pleased with a Lee. The primer feed seems to be a problem with the Lee but I haven't used a Lee so this is second hand info.
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Old July 14, 2017, 08:43 PM   #28
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"You can have 5, 6, 7 single stage presses all set up at once"

That's the problem with actual turrets, they were all made WAY too big!
Huge disk with die holes around the outside, 4" to 6" away from any support (center pin in the turret),
So the turret deflects away from the ram, forcing the ram to bend or the case to bend into the die...

Never owned a turret that didn't deflect unacceptably, that includes both an older Hollywood & a Texas.
Don't have either anymore, someone wanted the bragging rights WAY more than I wanted an inaccurate 'Do All' press...
I use presses that hold the dies squarely & securely over the ram, mostly so the only thing I have to deal with is frame stretch, which isn't much with the Lee 'Turret' or the Dillon 650 or 1050, and either will crank out 100 or more rounds before you get primers or powder in 20 cases to go one at a time in your 'REAL TURRET PRESS'....

There is a reason there are only one or two actual, 'Turret' presses being made, the design has outlived it's usefulness..
The Lee is 1/50 the price of those old dinosaurs, and more accurate even with the skinny ram & I'll fitting toolhead!

If you really want to figure it out, go back to J. Morris's last post, compare apples to apples!
A Dillon 650 without bullet feeder, a guy might make 100 rounds TOO MANY while the guy with a Lee Turret or actual turret press guy was trying to prime & powder 20 cases!

The propaganda says 600 rifle rounds an hour, some guy on YouTube did just over 1,100 in one hour in one take. (case feeder, no bullet feeder)
I easily do .223 at 350-400 an hour, but I'm slow and picky about the way the bullet starts into the case.
The 1050 w/auto drive, loading .223, spits out 900/hr while I drink coffee and watch cartoons... With nearly zero defects, maybe 1/500, but I'm picky...

The slowest part of loading with a Dillon is loading primer tubes,
Partly solved by using a vibratory tube loader ($25 aftermarket) and a tube extender that holds 200 instead of Dillons 100 round tubes.
Takes about 30 seconds to load 100 primers, getting the primers in the vibratory gadget takes 10 seconds, vibrating 100 primers into the tube takes 15-20 seconds.

I can't believe that anyone would bring up any older machine that didn't auto prime from a magazine when talking about speed!
Priming cases by hand is one of the slowest parts of reloading, moving the case into position, loading the primer into position, compressing the primer into the case, removing the case... And starting over is seriously time consuming!
And anyone that says they never miss with those little primers is lying!
Then there is the added issues of handling the primers with your fingers, elminating that possible source of contamination is worth the price of admission alone!

With a Dillon SDB being at or under $400 ready to rock, there is no way I'd consider any kind of manual press for short cases!
Rifle will run you about $100 more, but it will do virtually everything common,
And a 650 with case feeder kicks butt, but runs about $800 with case feeder and reasonable dies...
AND! It's a Dillon with a lifetime warranty, will hold at least 75% of it's value!

Last edited by JeepHammer; July 14, 2017 at 09:09 PM.
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Old July 14, 2017, 09:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Prof Young View Post
Loaders:

I've been reloading with a single stage press for many years. Retired now, shooing a lot more, so it's time to speed up production.

I'm guessing I need some kind of turret press, or multiple stage press. I don't want the most fancy most expensive.

I'd like it to take a primed case that has power already in it, expand the case, seat the bullet and crimp it without having to remove the case from the press. I'm happy to place the bullet in the case by hand.

I'm starting my research . . .

Please talk to me.

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Lee Classic Turret is the perfect inexpensive step up from a single stage press.
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Old July 14, 2017, 09:25 PM   #30
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Did the OP use Search to find the hundreds of similar threads?
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Old July 14, 2017, 10:29 PM   #31
FrankenMauser
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Quote:
"You can have 5, 6, 7 single stage presses all set up at once"

That's the problem with actual turrets, they were all made WAY too big!
Huge disk with die holes around the outside, 4" to 6" away from any support (center pin in the turret),
So the turret deflects away from the ram, forcing the ram to bend or the case to bend into the die...

Never owned a turret that didn't deflect unacceptably, that includes both an older Hollywood & a Texas.
Don't have either anymore, someone wanted the bragging rights WAY more than I wanted an inaccurate 'Do All' press...
You bring this up in every thread discussing turret presses. Yet, you have never provided any supporting arguments or data.
Did you actually measure the claimed deflection?
I have.
While swaging bullets - about the worst thing you can do to a press, short of crushing rocks - I had less than 0.002" deflection on the T-7.
Most presses are already several multiples of that out of alignment, aside from deflection and common misalignment of the rams.

And if you're going to get into deflection of a turret press, you may as well start a new thread and go on talking about frame spring, stretch, and deflection under load in every other type of press, too. About eight months ago, I measured a single-stage press while sizing .307 Win brass that had been loaded to 68,000 psi and stretched substantially when fired in a Marlin 336. The aluminum frame was stretching over 0.035" and deflecting several degrees!

That's not the only way you can be out, either. The last time I had it apart (about 6,500 rounds before selling), my 550B had enough wear in the frame that the ram was deflecting 0.009" toward the front of the press when under load.


If you don't like turret presses, then don't use them. But if you're going to claim, semi-scientifically, that they're crap for whatever reason, then support the claim.
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Old July 14, 2017, 11:46 PM   #32
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OK, that's easy.

Mount press on a table that can not deflect, in my case that's a 3" thick hardened steel inspection table ground to less than 0.0001" across it's surface in any direction.

Mount dial indicator 'Run Out' gauge to table contacting press turret at the die.

Watch turret deflect to the limit of the run out gauge, in this case, 0.010"

Switch to common dial indicator, watch the press deflect 0.090" at the die.

Tighten up, rebush turret stem, hone bushing to fit the turret pin, less than 0.001" clearance between bushing stem shaft.
Heat from holding the pin in your hand would cause an interference fit.
Can't get any tighter than that without risking lockup when temprature changes.

Watch a .308 case resize deflect turret 0.060" at the die.
With virtually zero slop between pin & turret, I'm surprised the cast turret material didn't crack, but cast iron is relatively soft and flexible... Especially the cheap stuff.

Actively seeking to sell deflecting press to people that had made offers on it previously.

Check Lee Classic press the same way,
After tool head slop is taken up, zero dial indicator, resize .308 brass.
Press frame stretch just under 0.003" measured at the die. Acceptable.

Check RCBS Rock Chucker, nodular iron frame, the same way, frame stretch just under 0.001" at the die. Nodular iron rocks!

There is a reason those old iron frame Rock Chucker have been used by bench rifle shooters since the beginning of time, and are still used.
That's the reason I still have mine!

Dillon 650 cast aluminum frame stretched about 0.003". Acceptable.
There is a LONG frame, and it is China cast aluminum...

Dillon 1050 gray iron frame stretched virtually nothing, the needle on the run out gauge doesn't twitch enough for a reading, but that's to be expected since the dies come down on the frame...
Ram deflection is hard to measure since the ram goes DOWN, so you have to measure die/tool head movement off center & extrapolate...
At worst about 0.0002", which is probably clearance in the ram to frame.

I use Starrett dial indicators & run out gauges, which I've shown in pictures I've posted on here before,
And I use Starrett standards to check calibration.
Since I own a machine shop, inspection tables & highest quality measuring tools are kind of a requirement.

Why would you measure ram deflection that has the ram centered under a stationary die like the Lee has? Seems to be wasted effort...
Bow in the ram might be a pressure issue, but deflection doesn't mean anything when the case can move around a few thousands in the shell holder to center in the fixed die.

I'm wondering why you would try to measure ram deflection on a small Dillon?
With a small offset from center, fixed dies that can't move, and a brass in a shell plate that let's it move under center of that fixed die, it seems pointless.

Maybe you intended to say ram side movement, clearance between ram & bore?
That movement is negated since the brass can move several thousands to center in the die itself, the die being solidly mounted in the tool head.

On an actual turret press it was the turret deflecting, cocking that die at an angle.
No amount of movement by the brass is going to compensate for the brass getting ground into one side of the die, then having to scrap up into that die at an angle.
Brass aren't curved when they go in, but enough deflection and they will be when they come out!

No wonder all the old timers that used the turret presses were obsessed with neck concentricity! It was a full time job trying to take the bend out of the cases between body & neck the angled die put into them!
(Didn't think about that, did ya'?!)

Anyway, back to the point you tried to make...
There isn't a progressive out there that won't do 100 to every 1 you can get done on that antique 'Real Turret'!!!

The only way to call a turret 'Fast' is to compare it to continental drift!

Last edited by JeepHammer; July 14, 2017 at 11:59 PM.
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Old July 15, 2017, 02:04 AM   #33
FrankenMauser
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Thank you for at least attempting.
Quote:
Watch a .308 case resize deflect turret 0.060" at the die.
With virtually zero slop between pin & turret, I'm surprised the cast turret material didn't crack, but cast iron is relatively soft and flexible... Especially the cheap stuff.
Nope.

Using balsa wood?
No properly adjusted steel, iron, or aluminum turret press of normal design is going to deflect 60 thou. Taking up slop? Maybe. Improperly adjusted? Sure. In-spec and used as advertised... Not a chance.


Quote:
I'm wondering why you would try to measure ram deflection on a small Dillon?
With a small offset from center, fixed dies that can't move, and a brass in a shell plate that let's it move under center of that fixed die, it seems pointless.

Maybe you intended to say ram side movement, clearance between ram & bore?
That movement is negated since the brass can move several thousands to center in the die itself, the die being solidly mounted in the tool head.
Nope.
Apply force to press handle as cases enter dies. Ram shifts in bore and deflects toward front of press.
Not difficult to understand.

Why measure it? Because too many cases (pistol or rifle) were clipping die mouths and I wanted to know why.

Quote:
Anyway, back to the point you tried to make...
There isn't a progressive out there that won't do 100 to every 1 you can get done on that antique 'Real Turret'!
Not at all the point I was trying to make.
I said absolutely nothing about speed -- especially in trying to argue that a turret press is faster than a progressive. That would be ridiculous, particularly when considering that I included a Dillon 550B in my posts...
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Old July 15, 2017, 03:54 AM   #34
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Quote:
Did the OP use Search to find the hundreds of similar threads?
If anyone did that , there wouldn't be anything to post here.


On the deflection side of things, to load decent ammunition it doesn't matter if a press has .090" of deflection as long as it always has .090". Kind of like it is more important that your powder measure be repeatable than accurate.
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Old July 15, 2017, 08:18 AM   #35
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Lee N. Field got it right. The Lee Classic Turret fits your needs as stated. It's simple, rugged, economical, and produces great ammo. I have the economy version and load .357 mag, .41 mag, 7.62x39, and .223 ammo on it with very good results. The .223 ammo is just sub MOA in my AR15, and the 7.62x39 is just over MOA in my AR47. So for me and my uses this more than good enough quality ammo. Additional turrets are very economical as well so adding calibers is not only cost effective, but only takes a minute when changing on the press. I'm eventually going to add the Classic and sell the economy version since I can the use the Safety prime and won't have to prime off the press.
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Old July 15, 2017, 09:19 AM   #36
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"If anyone did that , there wouldn't be anything to post here."

LOL

Dillon, makes better ammo than I am shot.
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Old July 15, 2017, 09:36 AM   #37
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I have had excellent results with a Lee Classic Turret press. Its simply, reliable, turns out great quality ammo at a decent rate.
I regularly get 180-200 rounds of pistol ammo per hour which is more than fast enough for my needs. Caliber changes are quick, and each turret head keeps it settings without any adjustments needed.
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Old July 15, 2017, 01:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
LOL
Yeah but it's not a joke.

Do a search using "turret or progressive", you will get 38 PAGES of results, 937 different threads asking the same question. Nothing said here that couldn't be found in them.

The first one being started in July 1999.. That's 18 years ago multiply that by 52 weeks in a year and you get 936 weeks. So we have had the same conversation every week for the last 18 years.

Last edited by jmorris; July 16, 2017 at 08:01 PM.
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Old July 15, 2017, 02:50 PM   #39
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Jmorris is right. Shoulda started with a search.

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Old July 15, 2017, 03:15 PM   #40
deserted
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Bought a 550B in '93 to load for mine and my sons' USPSA guns. Just went back and checked, counted 11 caliber conversion kits with five powder measures. A Rockchucker, a Lee Breechlock, and one of their hand-held ones, too. 28 different calibers at last count. I use the Dillon more than all the others combined, including the MECs for 12 and 20 ga. You will not be sorry for buying a Dillon anything.
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Old July 15, 2017, 08:49 PM   #41
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Nope.
Apply force to press handle as cases enter dies. Ram shifts in bore and deflects toward front of press.
Not difficult to understand.
No, not at all hard to understand.
Also not hard to understand that shell holders/shell plates are slotted, brass moves freely for a pretty large distance (machine tool speaking) allowing the brass to align with the fixed die.
I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intended purpose of the lotted shell holder, ease of swapping one case for another was, but the end result is the brass can move to make small corrections when entering the die.

Quote:
Why measure it? Because too many cases (pistol or rifle) were clipping die mouths and I wanted to know why.
That's an easy one!
YOU didn't correct the index of the shell plate to align the brass under the die well enough to get it started,
OR,
YOU didn't adjust the case feed shuttle to get the case under the die.

Not a fault of ram or machine! Operator error!

As for cause of ram/frame wear, probably lack of lubrication, about the only way to wear a ram/frame out.
My 650 (properly lubricated) went over a million before the frame needed bushed, the ram was fine & reused, aluminum not being the best bearing material & needing frequent & proper lubrication.

The 1050 went about 1.5 million before it needed rebuilt & a new ram.
It's gone another 2.5 million with a roller bearing & new factory ram with little sign of wear.
(Roller bearing rock!)

So again, I have to call BS and blame it on operator error.
You know, like from the guy that couldn't get the machine adjusted in the first place or doesn't know cast iron deflects...
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Old July 15, 2017, 09:16 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deserted
Bought a 550B in '93 to load for mine and my sons' USPSA guns. Just went back and checked, counted 11 caliber conversion kits with five powder measures. A Rockchucker, a Lee Breechlock, and one of their hand-held ones, too. 28 different calibers at last count. I use the Dillon more than all the others combined, including the MECs for 12 and 20 ga. You will not be sorry for buying a Dillon anything
The only people I know that regretted buying Dillon were those that didn't use them. A pretty big chunk of money for about zero use...
The bright side, GREAT resale value!

I was butt hurt about the price, now I don't know why I waited so long and bought so many cheaper presses!
The aftermarket support, gadget makers for Dillon stuff is pretty good too!
What Dillon didn't think of or doesn't add to keep costs down is on the aftermarket, most of it fairly inexpensive.

My big hold out was case & bullet feeders, case feeder is $250, but making one from a 5 gallon bucket is $30 if you are handy with hand tools,
The bullet feeder cost me $80 instead of $500 (YouTube is a wonderful thing!)

I'm like you, I go ahead and buy a powder thrower for each tool head and leave it set up.
I have my favorite loads, same powder & charge, and it increases cost in the front end, but makes things so much faster & easier it's not funny...

The little Lee Turret is right there, ready to do bullet pulling or whatever in the event it's needed, with tool head changes taking 2 seconds it's just too handy & easy...
Tool head set up with .223/5.56 tools, tool head with .45ACP tools, tool head set up with 9x19mm tools, etc, makes short work of QC culls, no stray cartridges laying around so you have to wonder later where they came from.

Makes short work of smaller production scale loading and REALLY reduces aggravation!

For those of us that moved up through singles, to tool inserts, to turrets, to rotary tool heads, then to all manner of 'Doctored' progressives, then finally to a progressive that was engineered from the ground up to be a progressive, this is probably the easiest, least glitchy common machine on the market.

Works well, has lifetime warranty that Dillon actually honors, cost is reasonable, it's realatively easy to adjust, the aftermarket supports it, hard to beat all that.

I'll be more than happy to jump to another machine, IF someone can point out one that can beat all that and offer more, but right now, the next step is Camdex, and they start at $34,000 (talk about butt hurt!).
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Old July 15, 2017, 10:03 PM   #43
hdwhit
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Prof Young, have you factored in the additional free time you will have when you are not working? If you get a progressive press and grind out enough ammunition one weekend for an entire month, what do you do for other 28 days?
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Old July 16, 2017, 12:38 PM   #44
JeepHammer
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Shoot
go fishing!
Watch cartoons!
Grill steaks!
Can The Garden!
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Old July 16, 2017, 08:03 PM   #45
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Quote:
If you get a progressive press and grind out enough ammunition one weekend for an entire month, what do you do for other 28 days?
I don't know about him but I spend the time answering the same questions over and over.
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Old July 16, 2017, 10:30 PM   #46
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I reloaded several years with a Rockchucker and then went to the (now old) Lyman Spar T turret. At that time I was shooting about 500 rds a week. The turret puts out 150 rds hr at a safe pace vs 50 rds hr with the single stage. I mounted an RCBS powder measure on top of a Lyman power through die and used the primer feed accessory on the press. A shell is inserted once and a finished round comes out after all stages are complete. Turning the turret by hand is no big deal but I mounted a handle on the turret (like the later versions) to make it easier. I have .32 and .357 dies mounted on the press at the same time...its tight but works fine.

I like the turret because its simple and small. It stores in a small space and is ready to go when bolted back on the bench. I avoided a progress mostly for that reason and because 500 hr production isn't needed. I've reloaded on 550 & 650 Dillions and aware of how fast and reliable they are.

The only upgrade I would ever do is buy the T-7 turrent...although after 25+ yrs of satisfaction with the Lyman I doubt another press is in my future (I'm retired). The Lee turret isn't on my list because I don't like their primer feed or their powder measure...personal choice for me but those keep me out of the Lee camp. The T-7 has a good press mounted primer feed system and any powder measure will fit.

As far as run out, flex and all those comments...my ammo shoots straight and is accurate.

Last word is a turret is great step up from a single stage but look/see what priming and powder systems you prefer.
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Old July 17, 2017, 04:49 PM   #47
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Quote:
jmorris wrote:
I don't know about him but I spend the time answering the same questions over and over.
Well, my question wasn't directed to you.
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Old July 17, 2017, 11:12 PM   #48
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Dad loaded shotgun with a MEC, he had a RockChucker, a Co-Ax, Lee progressive, and a Dillon 450. The Lee sat unused most of the time and when it was used it was relegated to case prep. The RC was used for load work up, the Co-ax for short run rifle, and the Dillon was used for production. When he passed I took the RC, a few dies, and and let my Brother-in-law have the rest. I eventually got a Dillon 550B to speed up my production.
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Old July 18, 2017, 12:12 AM   #49
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Quote:
Well, my question wasn't directed to you.
If you click on a username (the names we go by, blue and underlined on the left of the page) another tab will open.

That tab will have user name, view public profile, send private message, find more posts, and add to contacts.

Click on "send private message" and you can have a conversation with that particular individual, excluding all others.
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Old July 18, 2017, 12:50 AM   #50
condor bravo
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hdwhit:
"Well, my question wasn't directed to you."

I think most would consider that to be more or less an open ended question and inviting anyone to add to the thread in a playful manner. That happens now and again and not to be taken seriously.

I thought somewhere along the line that the prof was in favor of a 550 but now can't find the post if it did exist (or may have been someone else in another thread).
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