Smith Carbine: Original Load Data? - Page 2

mehavey · June 9, 2016, 08:33 PM

There is not even the faintest possibility of containing the pressure using anything approaching a "paper" cartridge in today's context. Unlike the Sharps, the Smith is not a sealed chamber by any stretch of design.

Put 40-some odd grains of 3F in the standard plastic case under a 350gr lead bullet at 950fps and open sights for 100yards dependable medium game up through White Tail.

Do NOT try to "magnumize" what is an otherwise superb little battle carbine over it's deliberate design requiring a strong sealing case... or you'll be picking powder granules out of your face.

Model12Win · June 9, 2016, 08:54 PM

It's not so much that I'm trying to make a magnum out of it, I am just trying to find out why today's rubber cases can only hold 80% of the power the originals could.

deerslayer303 · June 9, 2016, 09:00 PM

Is it a shorter case / chamber as compared to the original? Or are the bullets used too long?

Model12Win · June 9, 2016, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Is it a shorter case / chamber as compared to the original?

From my research, the rubber cases and especially the metal cases today don't have the same internal power capacity as the originals. They are specifically made smaller, as lighter power charges can produce the best accuracy. This is beneficial for skirmishers and reenactors, but not so much for people interested in historical accuracy.

**Mike Irwin** · June 9, 2016, 09:48 PM

Even with the 360 grain bullet it had less muzzle energy than a .30 M1 carbine cartridge.

As for why the cartridges today hold less powder, probably a couple of reasons...

1. They're designed to be reused. Repeatedly. Which means that they need to be a lot heavier.

2. The original cartridges were used in new guns in good condition.

3. Today's cartridges might be used in antique guns that have better than 150 years of wear and tear on them.

mehavey · June 9, 2016, 10:21 PM

A 350-360gr/50-caliber bullet doing (let's say) 900fps upon impact is devastating to the human body it hits. Maybe not full-up 460gr/58Minie-ball category... but those fall into the godawful regime. (The old slow-moving/very heavy/expanding/pure lead bullet effect don'cha know.)

That said, the internal sdes of the classic /original Smith tube are (have to be) pretty well fixed -- .505 or so. The base may be a bit thinner for one-time use, and therefore give a little extra room for powder.

If you want, you could drill out the base of a modern plastic case base with a 1/2" drill to get slightly more volume -- but I'd suggest diminishing returns are setting at this point.

Hawg · June 9, 2016, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Maybe not full-up 460gr/58Minie-ball category... but those fall into the godawful regime

You got that right.

**Mike Irwin** · June 10, 2016, 07:08 AM

The reusable metallic cartridges have a reduced shank on the base, which cuts down on the usable powder space.

The big question is the length of today's reproductions vs original cartridges. The Smith has a fairly long and gentle leade, meaning overall cartridge length wasn't super critical.

Rachen · June 10, 2016, 02:06 PM

I was just about to cry out "NO!" to the paper cartridge idea but mehavey beat me to it.

There is a reason why the breech-locking spring is so tight and such a pain for those who do speed shooting. That spring is the only thing that is keeping the breech from opening upon firing, and the casing itself rocketing out of the chamber still being propelled by burning powder, right into the shooter's face.
So I would not even think about modifying that spring, and put on some winter gloves instead so as not to get "bitten" by sharp metal edges while working the action.

Come to think of it, the Smith is designed in a VERY SIMILAR way to a modern infantry howitzer, (WWII - present day), ones still in widespread use across the world. Where the shell is ejected through that open breech immediately upon firing. The Smith is a shoulder-fired version of that thing.

By the way, Pietta is not the only guys making the cartridge casings for the Smith. If I am correct, several domestic manufacturers are making the casing also, from both brass and plastic. We could contact them so they can know that there is also considerable demand for larger capacity casings, and they can make one with a deeper reamed bottom.

As for power levels of the current cartridges, a 350 grain flatpoint or roundnose traveling at 800-900fps is far more powerful than any service pistol cartridge or cap and ball revolver load. It can be compared to a .44 Magnum or .454 Casull roughly in terms of kinetic energy. If .454 can take down a grizzly bear, the Smith should be up to the task also. Add that with proper shot placement, and I don't see any problem hunting big game with it. As a matter of fact, I would place the Smith on the list of powerful and dependable survival rifles that are easily packable, whether for an afternoon stroll in the woods or an extended wilderness trip.

**Mike Irwin** · June 10, 2016, 03:03 PM

The paper used in making original paper cartridges was a very heavy paper, almost flexible cardboard, certainly nothing like the combustible cartridges used in the Sharps or Colt revolvers.

It may have been the same type of paper used to make cartridges for the Springfield Rifled Musket of the same era.

This discussion thread has some EXCELLENT photographs of original Smith paper cartridges:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/smit...rchase.116735/

I'm not 100% sure, but I THINK that the Poultney & Trimble cartridges (they were a very prolific manufacturer of a variety of cartridges, including Gallagher carbine rounds) used the sandwich of paper and metal foil.

mehavey · June 11, 2016, 09:17 AM

Look at this photo from Mike's Link above:
http://civilwartalk.com/attachments/...h_1-jpg.76616/

It gives the reader the perspective of how thick those (paper) tube walls were
-- had to be -- in order to have bullet OD inside, and chamber ID outside.

That's a whole different game that what folks think of when saying "paper cartridge."
(and I don't know where I'd get`em or how I'd make`em)

The repro plastic cases are effectively the same dimensions inside & out as the old tubes
-- tho' one might drill the bottom out a bit if reeeeeally obessed.

drobs · June 11, 2016, 10:29 AM

Off subject, & not sure I should mention this (as I hate competition when bidding) but looking on gunbroker:
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx...=smith+carbine

Seems to me you can buy an original Smith Carbine for just a little more than a Pietta.

deerslayer303 · June 11, 2016, 11:26 AM

Quote:

not sure I should mention this (as I hate competition when bidding) but looking on gunbroker:

There is always that "BUY NOW" Tab!

I like reproduction guns simply because the metallurgy is better and I just want shooters I don't collect. BUT that is nice to know that the price on the originals is reasonable.

drobs · June 11, 2016, 11:33 AM

I'd buy an original and shoot it. That being said there is a nicely set up Pietta on there that has everything you need to get started shooting.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/562987537

deerslayer303 · June 11, 2016, 01:37 PM

I can already see a Pietta Smith Carbine in my stable. I think it would be an awesome Brush gun for getting that whitetail table fare.

heck slinging that much lead it's probably THE brush gun!!

drobs · June 11, 2016, 01:47 PM

Deerslayer, I agree.

Note I'm not bidding over there so y'all are welcome to snap up some of those deals. Just don't bid them into the 2k to 3k range!

deerslayer303 · June 11, 2016, 01:48 PM

Oh I can't bid right now either. Too many other iron in the fire

Hawg · June 11, 2016, 02:50 PM

Quote:

I can already see a Pietta Smith Carbine in my stable. I think it would be an awesome Brush gun for getting that whitetail table fare. heck slinging that much lead it's probably THE brush gun!!

If you want to kill brush and small trees get a 3 band Enfield or if you want a shorter barrel an Enfield Musketoon.

If you shoot at inanimate objects you will be saying dayuum a lot when you see the destructive power of a .58 minie with 60 grains of powder.

**Mike Irwin** · June 11, 2016, 03:31 PM

The only way I'd buy an original Smith carbine as a shooter is if I could examine it in minute detail first.

The latch stud, latch spring, and spring screws were all known to wear and break over time, either rending the gun pretty much useless, or making it fly open when it was shot.

deerslayer303 · June 11, 2016, 07:55 PM

Quote:

If you shoot at inanimate objects you will be saying dayuum a lot when you see the destructive power of a .58 minie with 60 grains of powder.

Hawg, Your post got me to wondering (since I've never fired a .58 Minie ball) so I went to Youtube and checked out a few videos on Minie balls. GOOD GRIEF!!!

They should have named it THE WRECKING BALL! Sure changes ones way of thinking about the carnage that must have went down back then.

Hawg · June 11, 2016, 10:10 PM

They are devastating.

Model12Win · June 12, 2016, 08:53 PM

I've been thinking hard on either an Enfield Musketoon or a 2 bander... want a .58 rifle musket, but not the full size ones. Too long for my needs. So many decisions...

Also have heard some horror stories lately of Pedersoli quality, mainly I've read really bad reports on the Enfields. Rough barrels and stuff like that.

mehavey · June 12, 2016, 09:36 PM

You might want to see
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564165

...and would suggest full size.

Then again.... the Smith is still more than enough for what you intend.

Model12Win · June 12, 2016, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Then again.... the Smith is still more than enough for what you intend.

The Smith cannot be loaded to the true, original specifications of Civil War era military loads. I've reached that conclusion, from looking at all the data available to me.

The rifled muskets don't have this problem.

Quote:

...and would suggest full size.

Why do you suggest full size? I am not a reenactor, I am a target shooter and a hunter. I have consistanly hear the 2-band and musketoon sized rifles shoot more accurately compared to the full size ones, do to the shorter and subsequently stiffer barrels among other reasons. Also, I'm an occasional hunter and swinging a 55" plus full size rifle musket around for the purpose doesn't seem very practical!

Hawg · June 12, 2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

the 2-band and musketoon sized rifles shoot more accurately compared to the full size ones, do to the shorter and subsequently stiffer barrels among other reasons.

I find that difficult to believe. My 3 band is accurate to minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards.

June 9, 2016, 09:48 PM	#30
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Even with the 360 grain bullet it had less muzzle energy than a .30 M1 carbine cartridge. As for why the cartridges today hold less powder, probably a couple of reasons... 1. They're designed to be reused. Repeatedly. Which means that they need to be a lot heavier. 2. The original cartridges were used in new guns in good condition. 3. Today's cartridges might be used in antique guns that have better than 150 years of wear and tear on them. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 9, 2016, 10:21 PM	#31
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,207	A 350-360gr/50-caliber bullet doing (let's say) 900fps upon impact is devastating to the human body it hits. Maybe not full-up 460gr/58Minie-ball category... but those fall into the godawful regime. (The old slow-moving/very heavy/expanding/pure lead bullet effect don'cha know.) That said, the internal sdes of the classic /original Smith tube are (have to be) pretty well fixed -- .505 or so. The base may be a bit thinner for one-time use, and therefore give a little extra room for powder. If you want, you could drill out the base of a modern plastic case base with a 1/2" drill to get slightly more volume -- but I'd suggest diminishing returns are setting at this point. Last edited by mehavey; June 9, 2016 at 10:29 PM.

June 10, 2016, 07:08 AM	#33
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	The reusable metallic cartridges have a reduced shank on the base, which cuts down on the usable powder space. The big question is the length of today's reproductions vs original cartridges. The Smith has a fairly long and gentle leade, meaning overall cartridge length wasn't super critical. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 10, 2016, 02:06 PM	#34
Rachen Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2006 Location: Weekend cowboy Posts: 542	I was just about to cry out "NO!" to the paper cartridge idea but mehavey beat me to it. There is a reason why the breech-locking spring is so tight and such a pain for those who do speed shooting. That spring is the only thing that is keeping the breech from opening upon firing, and the casing itself rocketing out of the chamber still being propelled by burning powder, right into the shooter's face. So I would not even think about modifying that spring, and put on some winter gloves instead so as not to get "bitten" by sharp metal edges while working the action. Come to think of it, the Smith is designed in a VERY SIMILAR way to a modern infantry howitzer, (WWII - present day), ones still in widespread use across the world. Where the shell is ejected through that open breech immediately upon firing. The Smith is a shoulder-fired version of that thing. By the way, Pietta is not the only guys making the cartridge casings for the Smith. If I am correct, several domestic manufacturers are making the casing also, from both brass and plastic. We could contact them so they can know that there is also considerable demand for larger capacity casings, and they can make one with a deeper reamed bottom. As for power levels of the current cartridges, a 350 grain flatpoint or roundnose traveling at 800-900fps is far more powerful than any service pistol cartridge or cap and ball revolver load. It can be compared to a .44 Magnum or .454 Casull roughly in terms of kinetic energy. If .454 can take down a grizzly bear, the Smith should be up to the task also. Add that with proper shot placement, and I don't see any problem hunting big game with it. As a matter of fact, I would place the Smith on the list of powerful and dependable survival rifles that are easily packable, whether for an afternoon stroll in the woods or an extended wilderness trip. Last edited by Rachen; June 10, 2016 at 02:18 PM.

June 10, 2016, 03:03 PM	#35
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	The paper used in making original paper cartridges was a very heavy paper, almost flexible cardboard, certainly nothing like the combustible cartridges used in the Sharps or Colt revolvers. It may have been the same type of paper used to make cartridges for the Springfield Rifled Musket of the same era. This discussion thread has some EXCELLENT photographs of original Smith paper cartridges: http://civilwartalk.com/threads/smit...rchase.116735/ I'm not 100% sure, but I THINK that the Poultney & Trimble cartridges (they were a very prolific manufacturer of a variety of cartridges, including Gallagher carbine rounds) used the sandwich of paper and metal foil. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 9, 2016, 08:33 PM	#26
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,207	There is not even the faintest possibility of containing the pressure using anything approaching a "paper" cartridge in today's context. Unlike the Sharps, the Smith is not a sealed chamber by any stretch of design. Put 40-some odd grains of 3F in the standard plastic case under a 350gr lead bullet at 950fps and open sights for 100yards dependable medium game up through White Tail. Do NOT try to "magnumize" what is an otherwise superb little battle carbine over it's deliberate design requiring a strong sealing case... or you'll be picking powder granules out of your face.

June 9, 2016, 08:54 PM	#27
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	It's not so much that I'm trying to make a magnum out of it, I am just trying to find out why today's rubber cases can only hold 80% of the power the originals could.

June 9, 2016, 09:00 PM	#28
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,704	Is it a shorter case / chamber as compared to the original? Or are the bullets used too long?

June 11, 2016, 09:17 AM	#36
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,207	Look at this photo from Mike's Link above: http://civilwartalk.com/attachments/...h_1-jpg.76616/ It gives the reader the perspective of how thick those (paper) tube walls were -- had to be -- in order to have bullet OD inside, and chamber ID outside. That's a whole different game that what folks think of when saying "paper cartridge." (and I don't know where I'd get`em or how I'd make`em) The repro plastic cases are effectively the same dimensions inside & out as the old tubes -- tho' one might drill the bottom out a bit if reeeeeally obessed.

June 11, 2016, 10:29 AM	#37
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Off subject, & not sure I should mention this (as I hate competition when bidding) but looking on gunbroker: http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx...=smith+carbine Seems to me you can buy an original Smith Carbine for just a little more than a Pietta. __________________ NRA Life Member

June 11, 2016, 11:33 AM	#39
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	I'd buy an original and shoot it. That being said there is a nicely set up Pietta on there that has everything you need to get started shooting. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/562987537 __________________ NRA Life Member

June 11, 2016, 01:37 PM	#40
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,704	I can already see a Pietta Smith Carbine in my stable. I think it would be an awesome Brush gun for getting that whitetail table fare. heck slinging that much lead it's probably THE brush gun!!

June 11, 2016, 01:47 PM	#41
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Deerslayer, I agree. Note I'm not bidding over there so y'all are welcome to snap up some of those deals. Just don't bid them into the 2k to 3k range! __________________ NRA Life Member

June 11, 2016, 01:48 PM	#42
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,704	Oh I can't bid right now either. Too many other iron in the fire

June 11, 2016, 03:31 PM	#44
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	The only way I'd buy an original Smith carbine as a shooter is if I could examine it in minute detail first. The latch stud, latch spring, and spring screws were all known to wear and break over time, either rending the gun pretty much useless, or making it fly open when it was shot. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 11, 2016, 10:10 PM	#46
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,378	They are devastating.

June 12, 2016, 08:53 PM	#47
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	I've been thinking hard on either an Enfield Musketoon or a 2 bander... want a .58 rifle musket, but not the full size ones. Too long for my needs. So many decisions... Also have heard some horror stories lately of Pedersoli quality, mainly I've read really bad reports on the Enfields. Rough barrels and stuff like that. Last edited by Model12Win; June 12, 2016 at 09:07 PM.

June 12, 2016, 09:36 PM	#48
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,207	You might want to see http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564165 ...and would suggest full size. Then again.... the Smith is still more than enough for what you intend.