So I just picked up a Star Megastar in 10mm...

[bac1023]

The most recent Fjestad Blue Book (which is only a general guide -- but one that gun shops use to stay real...) says it's worth about $400.

...which is why you can't go by blue book. 10mm Megastars routinely sell for over double that on Gunbroker.

[Walt Sherrill]

...which is why you can't go by blue book. 10mm Megastars routinely sell for over double that on Gunbroker.

Other have made the same point: and clearly some guns are exceptions. It would appear that the 10mm Megastar is an exceptions. (That's also true of guns that are coveted by collectors... the BB is not a good guide, then, either.)

That said, I couldn't find any completed sales on Gun Broker to see how many 10mm Stars have been sold in the recent past, or how often they sell, or a typical price. There IS one out there now and the bids for it are up to $1700 with a DAY to go!

I would note that $1700 (and THAT gun will sell for more!) is what one of the new SIG P220 10mm sells for; that model comes equipped with both NIGHT SIGHTS and a red-dot reflex sight (either of which can be used -- they don't interfere with each other), so it may be one of the pricier versions. The NEW SIG will come with a warranty and available parts (such as mags). There's no question which I would be more inclined to buy.

[saleen322]

Blue Book is just a price source and it is the most likely source if you are trading a gun. The prices from it come from surveys of retail gun stores that buy and sell. I don't know how or if Gunbroker or other online services figure into that. The 10mm Star sounds pretty rare so I am sure prices vary a lot.

Here is an example of some of the online prices being out of line. One of the guns I was looking for was a GP-100 in 327 Mag. They routinely bring over $1000 on Gunbroker. I was at a local shop a couple of months ago that just bought a number of manufacturer demonstrators from Ruger and among them was a 327 mag, like new in the box, for $529. I bought it. Now you can view this as a good deal or the people on Gunbroker are just way over paying. It is all how you look at it. YMMV

[Sevens]

Gunbroker is an interesting animal. The things that happen there can NOT be discounted -- they happen, they continue to happen, they are REAL. But they also do not represent the entire market.

However, for some folks savvy enough to know the market, there are simply SOME guns that should go to Gunbroker if the person selling it has, as #1 on his list, "amount of money someone will GIVE ME FOR IT."

And not all guns. Some guns.

Gunbroker is sooooo easy to use and some guys for whom time is far more scarce than money can simply get the things they desire without a bunch of time invested. (YES! I'm like most of you... the hunt and the chase is a big part of the thrill!) But to some guys, it's just far easier to pay 25% more than some of us would EVER consider, just to be able to grab up something they want. Gunbroker provides that.

[guncheese]

Star's Beretta 92 clone

Don't think there's any such thing. Taurus has a 92 clone.

well Taurus doesnt make a 92 clone
they started making the PT92 after they bought the Beretta factory in Brazil from Beretta lock stock and barrel (that included the rights to make the 92 under the Taurus name)
they improved it by putting the decocker where it belongs and continue to this day!

unless Im all wet...
and ive been wet before....

[DeadEyeJack]

Retracted, my apologies.

[Skans]

The high bid on the Megastar 10mm on Gunbroker was $1800 and the reserve wasn't met. Note, that gun had the Starvel finish and was claimed to never have been fired. Still, I'm surprised by the bid price and the fact that it didn't meet the reserve.

Up until Tanfoglio (and Glock) started making large capacity 10mm's, the Megastar 10mm was it - nothing else out there could compete. And, it is built like a tank that can apparently handle hot loads.

While at one time I really really really wanted that Megastar 10mm, I satisfied my desire by getting a Tanfoglio Stock. The Tanfoglio (IMHO) is a far superior gun. It's not as clunky, not as heavy, finer finish, better trigger, same capacity and more accurate. However, the debate is out as to whether the Stock can handle the pressures that the Megastar can apparently handle.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Skans

It's not as clunky, not as heavy, finer finish, better trigger, same capacity and more accurate. However, the debate is out as to whether the Stock can handle the pressures that the Megastar can apparently handle.

More importantly, they're still making them and you can get spare parts and magazines!!

[Walt Sherrill]

well Taurus doesnt make a 92 clone
they started making the PT92 after they bought the Beretta factory in Brazil from Beretta lock stock and barrel (that included the rights to make the 92 under the Taurus name)
they improved it by putting the decocker where it belongs and continue to this day!

Not a clone, but a very close copy except for that feature.

Tanfoglio, made their version of the CZ-75 with safeties on the slide (for some odd reason) and models with the safeties on the frame like the gun they were patterned after. Back then, they never offered a decocker. Gun makers do strange things... Some of the sights on those older CZ-pattern guns (semi-clones) were strange looking things.

[agtman]

While at one time I really really really wanted that Megastar 10mm, I satisfied my desire by getting a Tanfoglio Stock. The Tanfoglio (IMHO) is a far superior gun. It's not as clunky, not as heavy, finer finish, better trigger, same capacity and more accurate. However, the debate is out as to whether the Stock can handle the pressures that the Megastar can apparently handle.

Agree, and this reminded me of something I've been curious about for a while.

Given Tanfoglio's line-up of 10mm Witnesses/Stocks/Matches, etc., (imported thru EAA), I've long wondered why we never saw a 10mm entry from IMI (via Magnum Research) on the Jericho/Baby Eagle platform? ...

... It's not like they wouldn't sell any to 10mm fans here.

[Sevens]

Tough to make a case why ANY gunmaker should produce a 10mm. Many, many potential pitfalls in doing so. And the argument that "hey, there are people that would buy them!" plays well in a forum full of enthusiasts but plays horribly to a gun manufacturer's cost/benefit/risk analysis team.

Smith & Wesson hasn't even sniffed at a semi-auto 10mm in twenty-two plus years and we all know they are in this gig to sell handguns. They also built (arguably) the finest and most viable production 10mm pistol in history. (Well, you could make a strong argument with Glock)

We 10mm aficionados often share a rose-colored perspective of this round and guns built to shoot it.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Sevens

Tough to make a case why ANY gunmaker should produce a 10mm. Many, many potential pitfalls in doing so. And the argument that "hey, there are people that would buy them!" plays well in a forum full of enthusiasts but plays horribly to a gun manufacturer's cost/benefit/risk analysis team.

I tend to agree with you analysis above, but SIG seems to disagree. They've just introduced four or five variants of the P220 in 10mm, and a lot of folks seem very ready to buy them!

SIG seems to have some sort of crystal ball that guides them to build all of the different versions of various models. (Just go to the SIG web site and see how many different P226s and P220 there are, without even considering the X-Five versions!!. It's mind boggling!) Their assembly line must be a lot like a major car maker's assembly line, with different models not really mattering that much -- and computers helping to keep things straight.

[Sevens]

Certainly, my statement is not all inclusive and Sig seems primed to be the exception. But you must also note that the 10mm has been around since the early 80's and Sig finally decided NOW to go for it. Hmmm.

When Colt, S&W, Glock all did, Sig didn't.
When Wilson, STI, Nighthawk and others did, Sig had nothing to say on the subject.

I love that Sig has done this--because I am dedicated fan of the round. But I have almost zero interest in Sig across the board and zero plans to ever chase that pistol.

[Walt Sherrill]

Guess SIG was just waiting for the competition to thin out a bit...

[bac1023]

well Taurus doesnt make a 92 clone
they started making the PT92 after they bought the Beretta factory in Brazil from Beretta lock stock and barrel (that included the rights to make the 92 under the Taurus name)
they improved it by putting the decocker where it belongs and continue to this day!

Actually, Taurus didn't put it anywhere. The PT92 is simply based on the original Beretta 92, like the two on the left...

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by bac1023

Actually, Taurus didn't put it anywhere. The PT92 is simply based on the original Beretta 92, like the two on the left...

Interesting. That's the first time I've seen that (original) version of the Beretta 92. Wonder why Beretta moved it?

[agtman]

But you must also note that the 10mm has been around since the early 80's and Sig finally decided NOW to go for it. Hmmm.

Well, but the market for the 10mm has hardly been static since 1983. Hugely popular early, then bankruptcy for Dornaus & Dixon, then revived in 1987 by Colt's Delta Elite, then peaking with its adoption by the FBI, then seemingly "dead" after the arrival of the .40S&W.

And you know the rest, ... thru most of the '90s the 10mm became a "dead" - or at least a dormant and watered-down cartridge - until Glock introduced the G29/G30 compacts, S&W brought back its 4" 610 wheelie, and in the early 2000s Texas Ammo Company became the first so-called "boutique" (i.e., family-owned) ammo-maker to start marketing full-throttle 10mm ammo, using XTPs and some of the then-newer bullets (Gold Dots). I still recall reading the write-up on TAC's line of full-spec 10mm ammo in one of the gun rags. TAC preceded DT, BB, etc., by at least 2 or 3 years. And somewhere in there Tanfoglio's 10mm Witnesses arrived (like 'me or hate 'em).

And today, aside from Sig's 4 10mm models, we have the new 10mm long-slide Glock .40 on the way. The Turkish Sars K2 is shown as a 10mm model, although EAA doesn't yet import it; supposedly GrandPower is developing a 10mm model; and depending on how you read the tea leaves in the most recent (Jan.2015) announcement by Vltor's CEO on the "improved" Bren Ten project, they still intend to produce the "Legacy" model, possibly to be seen in 2016.

Not to mention Federal, hardly a boutique ammo company, which gave us the first downloaded 10mm load for the FBI's use in 1989, came out last year with a new (and mostly) full-spec 180gn trophy-bonded load. In fact, more ammo companies are making more varieties of 10mm ammo - up and down the huge energy curve - than at any time since Norma first introduced this cartridge.

So, when you take the long view on the history of the 10mm AUTO, I'd say its resurgence is continuing, maybe even at a significantly increased pace. My advice would be to stay optimistic. My sense of it (and I go back to the late '80s w/ this cartridge) is that the 10mm's popularity among American handgun buyers generally is growing - even among those for whom the 10mm isn't their initial or preferred round of choice. Shooters seem to want at least one 10mm pistol in their collection. And personal subjectivity aside, there must be a market-based reason that the gun and ammo companies are detecting in what is unquestionably a "niche" cartridge.

Besides, who knows what R&D into other makes of 10mm pistols by other gun makers the new Sigs and the new G40 will spur? - those who've discontinued previous models, perhaps, or those who may have one in development "on the backburner," now to be moved to the front?

A "10mm" 97B from CZ?

Who knows?

[bac1023]

Interesting. That's the first time I've seen that (original) version of the Beretta 92. Wonder why Beretta moved it?

They moved it in the late 70's when the 92S was introduced to comply with the requirements of some law enforcement agencies.

The very first Beretta 92 even had a step in the middle of the slide, as seen on the model on the far left.

[shaunpain]

I have two Stars in the cabinet and I am a fan. They don't seem to be worth much out there, but I don't think their deflated values will last forever. They made great guns and are worth much more than people are willing to pay for them. In most cases their guns were seriously overbuilt, a common practice in gunmaking yesteryear.

[Skans]

I think the real question that we are all pecking around at is "Why the sudden interest in 10mm by the gun industry after ignoring this round all these years?" There does seem to be a resurgence of sorts in the popularity of the 10mm. Why, what's changed?

[agtman]

I think the real question that we are all pecking around at is "Why the sudden interest in 10mm by the gun industry after ignoring this round all these years?" There does seem to be a resurgence of sorts in the popularity of the 10mm. Why, what's changed?

Perhaps because, as the FBI itself put it decades ago when it chose the 10mm AUTO, all the other (then-)existing cartridges suitable for LE use in an autoloader - i.e., 9mm and .45acp - were tapped out in terms of their ballistic potential.

But the 10mm's ballistic potential was virtually unknown in the mid-80s, other than it seemed to possess a huge energy curve within which to create designer loads for different purposes or uses - downloaded ammo for a pistol, uploaded ammo for an entry carbine, such as the 10mm HK subguns (3-rd burst carbines, actually) the FBI carried in their vehicles. And, in fact, Federal did make 2 different loads for the Bureau: the 180gn FBI-Lite @ 850fps, and the slightly warmer 190gn load with a bonded JHP at or near 1050fps.

There was also, back then, the untapped potential of the 10mm as a handgun hunting cartridge on an auto-platform, back when 99.9% of handgun hunters were using magnum wheelguns.

In a similar vein, today's pistol market is saturated with 9mm, .40 and .45 guns, some .357Sigs (mainly Glocks), while other makes & platforms for viable 10mm pistols that aren't Glocks, 1911s, or exactly one CZ-type (Tanfoglio's), still wait to be explored.

IOW, maybe the gun industry is sensing that the pistol market has become sort of "bored," if you will, with the standard vanilla calibers. And whatever else you might call the 10mm, it ain't a vanilla cartridge in its undiluted form. It only becomes that if you try to turn it into an elongated .40.

That, and after 30 years of experience with the 10mm, gunmakers (or some of them at least) are maybe feeling more confident about being able to engineer a durable and reliable pistol of reasonable size and weight to house what was intended to be a true "magnum power" auto cartridge.

[DA/SA Fan]

I guess "copy" was the wrong word. I did mean to suggest that it appeared to be based on the Bren Ten. Slide in frame rail, beefy, double stack 10mm.

Why is 10mm becoming more popular? I think 2 things contribute. 9mm hot loads have closed the gap with 40 S&W and since the .40 S&W never quite killed off the ten mm it has hung around long enough to be recognized as the most powerful semi-auto round that is commonly available.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by DA/SA Fan

I did mean to suggest that it appeared to be based on the Bren Ten. Slide in frame rail, beefy, double stack 10mm.

And the Bren Ten was based, in part, on the earlier CZ-75 design. There is not much new under the sun...

[Skans]

And the Bren Ten was based, in part, on the earlier CZ-75 design. There is not much new under the sun...

For this reason, I've always felt that the collectors have overvalued the Bren Tens. In other words, I don't see Bren Tens increasing in value much beyond where they are today in the future.

[Sevens]

The Bren Ten is a particular example of a firearm whose inflated "value" pretty much annoys me endlessly.

Here you have a project that sounded great and made a lot of people salivate (for good reason) but it showcased irrational ineptitude to the point of fraud (arguably) and some of the guns aren't even SAFE to shoot.

For sure, they are historically significant and I wouldn't pretend to argue otherwise. But "bittersweet" doesn't even describe them. Bitter disappointment may not be the proper term but it's more accurate.

Vltor's ridiculous follies are eerily appropriate.