The "staying power" of the .308 Winchester

[David13]

That is certainly an in depth technical look at .308.
I can say I'm a reasonable .308 fan.
But 30 naught 6 has been around longer, almost twice as long, and has not disappeared.
I don't know what they sell more of. Maybe no one knows.
I think the price is almost comparable.
Maybe I like .44 or .45 better, I don't know. But I'm thinking of handguns when I say that.
dc

[arizona98tj]

I bought my first .308 Win rifle back in the '70s, a very light weight Ithaca LSA-55.....I still have that rifle.

The last .308 Win rifle I bought was about two years ago, an FNH FNAR. At that time, I paid $125 for 1K rounds of LC once fired brass that was already prepped and ready for priming.....one of the reasons I still enjoy shooting .308. In contrast, I've not found that good of a brass deal for the 6.5 Grendel upper I'm still waiting on from AA. (But I am willing to try the Grendel assuming I'm still alive and kicking when it gets delivered.)

[johnwilliamson062]

There is something romantic about the 30-06. Plus the name is way better than 308. It is more or less the only time people in my generation and younger use the word "aught." I recently heard that half of small start-up failures can be contributed to poor name choice.

[old roper]

Dan, If you have a match and the requirement is that it has to be 308 shoot a certain bullet,sights etc and the winning rifle used is a 308 what does that prove. The only competition is between shooters.

You take the F-Class open you not only have competition between shooters, you have it between what their shooting which can be any caliber.

You got to look at David Tubbs and what he has shot over the years and what he's won with

http://www.davidtubb.com/davidtubb/c...ubbsuccess.pdf

[Bart B.]

It was a British philosophy many decades ago that if you have a match and the requirement is that the rifle had to be an SMLE with standard issue sights shooting one lot of .303 arsenal ammo so the only competition would be between shooters. All the rifles and ammo were considered equal in performance. Such rules were the standard for all the British Commonwealth Fullbore as well as international Palma matches from the WWI era until the early 1970's up through the early 1980's.

The flaw in their reasoning is all the rifles would not produce the same accuracy level with that single lot of ammo. A few would be very accurate, some somewhat decent and a few with dismal performance. Competitors would draw rifles and ammo from the armory then head for the firing lines. Those getting a rifle whose barrel had the best chamber/bore/groove dimensions for the ammo and its parts fit to be repeatable for each shot typicallly shot the best scores.

Nowadays, when matches require a specific cartridge and bullet be used, it's up to the competitor to find someone to get the right rifle and ammo parts and put them together so they'll shoot that cartridge and that bullet very accurate. Therefore, I think there is keen competition between the makers of rifle and ammo parts along with the shooting skills of the competitors

[Dan Newberry]

The lighter recoiling 6mm's and 6.5's are going to be easier to shoot than a .308 pushing bullets heavy enough to compete with the drift factor of the smaller bores.

I don't think the .308 will displace the smaller bores in target shooting--I just believe that the .308 will hang in there, being as of late the beneficiary of 10 twist factory barrels, and high BC 30 caliber bullets which allow it to shoot similar drift to the smaller bore's bullets, to 1000 yards and beyond.

My main .308 is pretty heavy... it was a 10 to 11 pound factory rifle to begin with, and with the addition of steel scope mounting hardware, and a heavy Nightforce NXS scope, it's about a 14 to 15 pound rig right now--and shooting the heavy bullets is not a problem at all, as far as recoil. And while I can shoot with a good 6.5 shooter, I would not purport to say I can outshoot him... at least not every time.

I mentioned what I did here on another forum, that the 208 AMAX when started at 2500 fps would actually drift no more (a bit less? yes...) than the 6.5mm 140 AMAX when sent at 2750 fps. And that went over like a dead possum in the punch bowl. No one was remotely willing to consider that the .308 shooter had a bullet option that would allow him to be competitive with the 6.5's that have been taking over for the past few years. But that option does exist... and it's easily do-able. One guy resorted to speeding his 140 AMAX up to right at 2900 fps to show he still had the advantage!

Dan

[Eppie]

Dan
as a .308 shooter, I agree with everything that you're saying. However I am also realistic enough to acknowledge that 6.x mm with the appeal of low recoil, faster recovery, less flinching and ".308 like" performance is a very powerful siren song for target shooters.

Since I'm not using a 6mm I'm not familiar with the costs associated with precision reloading for a 6.5mm, 6mmBR, 6.5XC, etc... Can you (or someone else) comment on that aspect?

Maybe we should start a new thread?

[Dan Newberry]

If you're talking about cost of reloading 6.5's versus .308's, it's going to be pretty similar... similar bullet cost, about the same powder charges.

You're right, the recoil bug is the thing that'll keep folks trending toward the 6mm's and 6.5's...

I just wanted to point out that a .308 shooter can easily have the same wind drift values as the flatter shooting 6's and 6.5's--by putting a truck load of bullet in there and getting it up to 2500 fps or so.

[Bart B.]

In reference to Dan's "by putting a truck load of bullet in there and getting it up to 2500 fps or so". . . . .

Check out Sierra's 30 caliber 240-gr. HPMK's BC's. You can push one out at 2150 to 2200 fps from a 28" .308 Win barrel having a 1:8 twist. That load'll buck the wind as good as any 26 caliber bullet from the same size case; very accurately, too. Folks used to shoot 250-gr. HPMK's out at that speed in their .308's.

Sierra's 220-gr. HPMK's also impressive. One can shoot if out of a .308 case at 2500 fps from a 26" 1:9 or 1:10 twist barrel; great accuracy and wind bucking results.

[three-fifty-seven]

I really appreciate you spending the time to write out this long article as I found it very interesting to read.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks Dan Newberry for the entertaining read. It comes at a crucial juncture for me, as I am considering a 6.5x47 Lapua rifle.

Not that I need one, I really don't.

In the process of learning what I can, I visited Lapua's webpage and compared the 308 with their 155 Scenar and the 6.5 with a 139 Scenar. It isn't until one passes about 600 yards that the 6.5 starts to shine, according to their data.

Makes me wonder whether it is worth it or not? Heck, I already have the 308 rifle, and I really like it. I have at least 1000 155 grain Scenars. I was thinking maybe of shooting F class after I heal up. If I do shoot F class, it will be only occasional and never really seriously. I can save a boatload of money by sticking with what I have right now.

Thanks for the informative read. It was really well done.

Regards,
Stubb

[Dan Newberry]

Stubb, thanks for the kind words.

The 6.5x47 is a great cartridge, so I wouldn't take anything away from it.

I will mention again, that the .308 will shoot 10,000+ rounds on the same barrel--at least that's what certain tests have proven in times past. And Todd Hodnett ( Accuracy 1st ) reports that his own .308 has 13,000+ rounds down its tube, and other than requiring several fouling shots to "settle in", it still shoots sub MOA.

Dan

[Bart B.]

Dan, a few months ago, I found a web site about barrel life for a .308 Win and didn't save it. Just finished a search for the key words in it; nothing found. A new .308 Win. rifle was benched and properly tested with commercial ammo. 5- or 10-shot groups averaged about 1/4 inch at 100 yards starting out. Every couple hundred rounds accuracy would degrade a tiny bit. After about 3,000 rounds, average groups had opened up to a bit over 1/3 inch. At 6,000 rounds, it was 2/3 inch. About 1 inch was what it did after 10,000 rounds.

Top ranked competitive shooters give the .308 Win. barrels in bolt guns about 3,000 rounds of accurate barrel life. Sierra Bullets rebarrels their .308 Win. rail gun used to test 30 caliber bullets 180 grains and lighter about every 3,000 rounds. And in both disciplines, 2,000 rounds is about the limit for pristine accuracy. A lot of the best competitors would not take a .308 Win. barrel to the Nationals with more than 1,500 rounds through it.

On the other hand, arsenal tests of 7.62 NATO ammo in M14 service rifles would show about 10,000 rounds of "combat accuracy". Competitive shooters with the M14, M1A as well as converted Garands would get about 30% more life than the bolt gunners mentioned earlier; those rifle didn't shoot quite as accurate as bolt guns and rebarreled between 4,000 and 5,000 rounds.

Most barrel life numbers are based on some amount of accuracy degradation that's observed by the shooter. It's a popular belief that a .22 rimfire barrel will last forever. Olympic rifle team folks rebarrel their free rifles every 20,000 to 30,000 rounds. They're able to tell when the accuracy at 50 metres goes from under 1/4" to about 3/8". Squirrel squashers claim ten or more times that many rounds.

[johnwilliamson062]

http://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-Shotgun-Card-p/ess.106.htm
What I was talking about. A few variants out there and not very complicated if you wanted a project. Put velcro on your vests, side saddle, etc. Can move them around and ?tactical reload? the side saddle from mag pouch cards and such.

[BumbleBug]

My impression from this thread & others is that the .308 Win must be "THE" most popular round these days. I admit it is a pretty ideal cartridge in so many ways. Now I don't go around doing poles or gathering statistics, but here in Texas most of the people I know are more into hunting than competition. I feel like there are more .30-06 aficionados than .308 Win hunters in Texas. This is just from the circles I run in and what I have observed or discussed. Not scientific, but obvious to me. It seems like 150 gr is the bullet of choice for WT too, although I'd go for 165 gr as ideal in any .30 cal cartridge.

FWIW...

...bug

[9mmfan]

Meh, I have a couple .30-06s. I started to get caught up in the maelstrom, and stopped and wondered how a .308 would really benefit me. If I didn't have my Savage and/or my M1, I would be looking long and hard at the .308. As it stands, don't really feel like I need one.

I really do kinda dig the Ruger Gunsite Scout as a concept, but I am way too broke at he moment to even handle one, so I stand by my previously stated stance on the matter.

YMMV

[thump_rrr]

Dan, a few months ago, I found a web site about barrel life for a .308 Win and didn't save it. Just finished a search for the key words in it; nothing found. A new .308 Win. rifle was benched and properly tested with commercial ammo. 5- or 10-shot groups averaged about 1/4 inch at 100 yards starting out. Every couple hundred rounds accuracy would degrade a tiny bit. After about 3,000 rounds, average groups had opened up to a bit over 1/3 inch. At 6,000 rounds, it was 2/3 inch. About 1 inch was what it did after 10,000 rounds.

My question is if they were chasing the rifling as the throat began to erode?

[Bart B.]

Thump, no he was not chasing the throat. All ammo was commercially loaded and cartridge length remained the same. It was all from the same lot number.

Many competitive shooters' handloads for long range with bolt guns have had bullets soft seated out far enough so they would set back a few thousandths compensating for the erosion of the rifling; muzzle velocity had dropped enough to cause average bullet drop to be more. With the .308 Win. round, the first indication of barrel life reaching its limit was 1/2 MOA or more elevation on the sights were needed for the same load at the same range under the same conditons. They could also easily tell when accuracy went from about 1/2 MOA at 600 yards to about 3/4 MOA and that's their limit; time to rebarrel. At this time, there was/is about 3000 rounds fired in the barrel.

This was my experience wearing out a dozen or more .308 Win. barrels.

[A pause for the COZ]

I cant speak for any one else. But I have two 308's. Both are Savages. one model 11 and one model 10.
One I leave set up for jacketed loads and the other I only shoot cast out of.

In a month I may shoot 2 or 300 rounds. 308, 30-30 and 3006 are the only calibers of that size you can economically shoot in volume.

You can shoot, Hunting, accuracy, plinking. Any way you want.
I love em!!

[LAH]

I cant speak for any one else. But I have two 308's. Both are Savages. one model 11 and one model 10.
One I leave set up for jacketed loads and the other I only shoot cast out of.

In a month I may shoot 2 or 300 rounds. 308, 30-30 and 3006 are the only calibers of that size you can economically shoot in volume.

You can shoot, Hunting, accuracy, plinking. Any way you want.
I love em!!

Very well said.

[Jbotto]

I swear it's threads like these that make this such a great place to hang out. All this good information from intelligent shooters like all you involved, is so much appreciated. Keep it up guys! This thread caught my eye from day one, and has kept me interested the whole way.

[57K]

Bang-up job, cousin Dan, and naturally I say that because we Newberry's have to stick together and we are few are far in-between. In my clan a brother coined a term that the the E's in Newberry are for excellence which you have demonstrated in this thread and many other's!

[Dan Newberry]

thanks for the kind words guys.