Yellow powder on primers. - Page 2

4T4MAG · May 12, 2009, 01:37 PM

I did email that same picture to Federal, they confirmed that the yellow is the primer powder and highly explosive. Some of the other primers have a yellow and blue mixture of some sort. The blue is from the bottom of the primer where the primer actually fires, apparently this is some sort of sealant. I went through every primer in the brick of 1000 and 90% of them have this issue.

Federal's answer: "Just wipe the powder off with a dry cloth" They say that during shipping and delivery that the powder compound inside the primer can be dislodged and displaced. I am sure this can happen, however I purchased the whole box of numerous bricks. Not a single other primer had any sort of imperfection, they were all very nice and shiny. In the primer tray there was the same yellow powder, it looks like it had been wet because of the way it migrated inside the tray, there was not water damage on the box or anywhere else. Like I say all of the other primers from that lot fire perfectly. Here is my opinion, possibly, when manufactured the mechanical sprayer that delivers the powder into the primer could have been fouled, or, the mixture of the powder was not correct, possibly too much moisture.

I did not like Federal's answer of Just wipe it off. I tried to clean it off with a dry towel prior to posting on the forum, no luck. I also tried cleaning with swab with very light alcohol on it, no luck.

This morning I took the brick back to the local reloading shop where I purchased the lot. They treated me like I am crazy to even questioning the primer. The old salty gent was rather bent that I would even ask to return them, being that Federal did not think there was and issue. I did not want to put it back on the owner of the reloading shop to deal with the problem, but he was so arrogant, after telling me that he has reloaded for 45 years and he has never had a problem. (Mike Irwin's signature line is very true) He said he will reload them and use them. I told him to call me if his revolver blows up. He was nice enough to exchange the primers for two pounds of H110. I hope he does not turn around and sell them to someone else who is unsuspecting.

I appreciate all of your help. I feel like there is no resolution to this issue. Hopefully in the future I will have more experience to draw my own conclusions.

Dingoboyx · May 12, 2009, 01:51 PM

The guy makin' them was eating a hotdog at the time, maybe?

**Mike Irwin** · May 12, 2009, 01:52 PM

"They say that during shipping and delivery that the powder compound inside the primer can be dislodged and displaced."

That can happen, that is true, but that is NOT what is going on in this case. That is far too much priming compound, and priming compound that rattles loose in shipping does not cake onto the primers so tightly that it can't be wiped off. That, at least some of it, dried there.

You need to REALLY push Federal on this.

In my opinion, those primers are simply NOT safe to use.

Attempting to seat them would likely cause a detonation.

I would not have taken them back to to the gunshop, they really don't have a horse in this fight.

E-mail Federal back, tell them that the compound is so badly caked and adhered to the primers that it will not come off with wiping, and that if you don't get some satisfaction, your next messages will be to NRA and SAAMI.

At one time I knew Federal's director of PR fairly well, but that was a long time ago when I was with NRA, and that individual is long gone.

onthejon55 · May 12, 2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doodlebugger45

Relax. It's probably only anthrax spores. Nothing for a reloader to worry about.

Exactly. Its not like its lead. (I hear that stuff causes cancer in Kalifornia)

4T4MAG · May 12, 2009, 02:02 PM

You know Mike, you are right. It was not a good idea to take them back to that shop. I am going to see what I can do to get them back. I will not use them. I will however, have some fun with Federal and others if needs be. to be continued.....

bfoosh006 · May 12, 2009, 09:25 PM

Thats a heck of a lot of primer "mixture" that just fell off....I'm a little surprised at their attitude. You'd think they would want to avoid someones gun being destroyed or worse yet, someone injuried

I agree with every one else....you should "stand by your guns"...

...and get pushy with Federal.

**Mike Irwin** · May 13, 2009, 05:09 AM

This isn't an issue that would cause the destruction of someone's gun.

There's not THAT much priming compound on the exterior of the primer.

What IS the issue here, though, is the possibility that a primer being inserted into a case or passing through the primer feed mechanism and so coated with priming compound could detonate, either through friction or compression.

Priming compound that is not in the priming cup, where it is protected, is susceptible to friction or compression.

This in turn could ignite the primer pellet itself, which could, in turn, cause a sympathetic detonation of all of the primers contained in the priming tube or tray.

One primer going off by itself is loud and it certainly could cause minor injuries, but 100 going off all at the same time? That has the potential to cause serious injury or even death.

Primers are NOT to be taken for granted. In the reloading of smokeless cartridges, they are the only explosive that we deal with, and they should be treated as such.

Sport45 · May 13, 2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

This in turn could ignite the primer pellet itself, which could, in turn, cause a sympathetic detonation of all of the primers contained in the priming tube or tray.

Federal's CYA protection against this is the warning they put on every pack of primers where they caution you to handle them individually.

(Photo copied without permission from Otto on a THR post here.)

**Mike Irwin** · May 13, 2009, 10:17 AM

I'll be dipped. I've not bought Federal primers in years, so I've never noticed that warning. I'm pretty sure that the old boxes I have don't have that warning.

csmsss · May 13, 2009, 10:55 AM

I have several boxes of Federal large pistol primers with the same warning. Ridiculous. They may as well say "do not use with reloading equipment" to be thorough.

Death from Afar · May 14, 2009, 04:55 AM

Mike as always is very right. I spoke to my mate who is literally a bomb disposal guy and pointed out that stuff- if priming compound- is very dangerous and could ignite on the friction of running it through a priming tool. I would wear hand and eye protection, and dispose of it with a damp bit of rag. Shame on you federal!

Sport45 · May 14, 2009, 05:00 AM

Quote:

They may as well say "do not use with reloading equipment" to be thorough.

Richard Lee tried to even the score when he recommends against using Federal primers in his equipment. Maybe if Dillon and Hornady followed suite Federal would change it?

**Mike Irwin** · May 14, 2009, 10:49 AM

Federal is generally thought to have the "softest" primer cups among the major manufacturers, which is probably the root of this entire issue.

I have pushed a LOT of Federal primers through my Lee hand prime tool over the years and never had a problem.

However, I also NEVER put more than 20 primers in the tray at any one time. If something does happen and they all go up, the effect is going to be far less severe than what it would be were I to have 100 primers in the tray.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm being a little anal retentive with this sort of stuff, but to be perfectly honest, primers and black powder scare me because I know you generally don't get second chances at being stupid with them.

4T4MAG · May 30, 2009, 02:02 PM

Update: after taking the primers back to the store and receiving a toung lashing form the owner, I re-bought the primers. I felt like I could save someone else a great deal of pain and damage to themselves or firearms. I did try to push Federal on the issue. They maintain that the yellow powder can just be dusted off, (B.S.) I used some bore solvent and could not really get it clean enough to use, let alone, have any sort peice of mind that they were going to function correctly after covering them in liquid. It is definitly not worth a KA'BOOM or any thing else.

**Mike Irwin** · May 31, 2009, 12:55 AM

It's time to escalate the situation.

Get in touch with SAAMI and the National Rifle Association's technical department and include those pictures.

Federal needs to be held accountable for that kind of quality control lapse and their recommended actions which won't work.

May 12, 2009, 01:51 PM	#27
Dingoboyx Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Location: South East Queensland, Australia Posts: 1,513	It's probably mustard.... The guy makin' them was eating a hotdog at the time, maybe?

May 12, 2009, 01:52 PM	#28
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	"They say that during shipping and delivery that the powder compound inside the primer can be dislodged and displaced." That can happen, that is true, but that is NOT what is going on in this case. That is far too much priming compound, and priming compound that rattles loose in shipping does not cake onto the primers so tightly that it can't be wiped off. That, at least some of it, dried there. You need to REALLY push Federal on this. In my opinion, those primers are simply NOT safe to use. Attempting to seat them would likely cause a detonation. I would not have taken them back to to the gunshop, they really don't have a horse in this fight. E-mail Federal back, tell them that the compound is so badly caked and adhered to the primers that it will not come off with wiping, and that if you don't get some satisfaction, your next messages will be to NRA and SAAMI. At one time I knew Federal's director of PR fairly well, but that was a long time ago when I was with NRA, and that individual is long gone. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 12, 2009, 09:25 PM	#31
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,100	Thats a heck of a lot of primer "mixture" that just fell off....I'm a little surprised at their attitude. You'd think they would want to avoid someones gun being destroyed or worse yet, someone injuried I agree with every one else....you should "stand by your guns"......and get pushy with Federal.

May 13, 2009, 05:09 AM	#32
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	This isn't an issue that would cause the destruction of someone's gun. There's not THAT much priming compound on the exterior of the primer. What IS the issue here, though, is the possibility that a primer being inserted into a case or passing through the primer feed mechanism and so coated with priming compound could detonate, either through friction or compression. Priming compound that is not in the priming cup, where it is protected, is susceptible to friction or compression. This in turn could ignite the primer pellet itself, which could, in turn, cause a sympathetic detonation of all of the primers contained in the priming tube or tray. One primer going off by itself is loud and it certainly could cause minor injuries, but 100 going off all at the same time? That has the potential to cause serious injury or even death. Primers are NOT to be taken for granted. In the reloading of smokeless cartridges, they are the only explosive that we deal with, and they should be treated as such. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 13, 2009, 10:17 AM	#34
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	I'll be dipped. I've not bought Federal primers in years, so I've never noticed that warning. I'm pretty sure that the old boxes I have don't have that warning. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 12, 2009, 01:37 PM	#26
4T4MAG Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Posts: 162	I did email that same picture to Federal, they confirmed that the yellow is the primer powder and highly explosive. Some of the other primers have a yellow and blue mixture of some sort. The blue is from the bottom of the primer where the primer actually fires, apparently this is some sort of sealant. I went through every primer in the brick of 1000 and 90% of them have this issue. Federal's answer: "Just wipe the powder off with a dry cloth" They say that during shipping and delivery that the powder compound inside the primer can be dislodged and displaced. I am sure this can happen, however I purchased the whole box of numerous bricks. Not a single other primer had any sort of imperfection, they were all very nice and shiny. In the primer tray there was the same yellow powder, it looks like it had been wet because of the way it migrated inside the tray, there was not water damage on the box or anywhere else. Like I say all of the other primers from that lot fire perfectly. Here is my opinion, possibly, when manufactured the mechanical sprayer that delivers the powder into the primer could have been fouled, or, the mixture of the powder was not correct, possibly too much moisture. I did not like Federal's answer of Just wipe it off. I tried to clean it off with a dry towel prior to posting on the forum, no luck. I also tried cleaning with swab with very light alcohol on it, no luck. This morning I took the brick back to the local reloading shop where I purchased the lot. They treated me like I am crazy to even questioning the primer. The old salty gent was rather bent that I would even ask to return them, being that Federal did not think there was and issue. I did not want to put it back on the owner of the reloading shop to deal with the problem, but he was so arrogant, after telling me that he has reloaded for 45 years and he has never had a problem. (Mike Irwin's signature line is very true) He said he will reload them and use them. I told him to call me if his revolver blows up. He was nice enough to exchange the primers for two pounds of H110. I hope he does not turn around and sell them to someone else who is unsuspecting. I appreciate all of your help. I feel like there is no resolution to this issue. Hopefully in the future I will have more experience to draw my own conclusions.

May 12, 2009, 02:02 PM	#30
4T4MAG Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Posts: 162	You know Mike, you are right. It was not a good idea to take them back to that shop. I am going to see what I can do to get them back. I will not use them. I will however, have some fun with Federal and others if needs be. to be continued.....

May 13, 2009, 10:55 AM	#35
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I have several boxes of Federal large pistol primers with the same warning. Ridiculous. They may as well say "do not use with reloading equipment" to be thorough.

May 14, 2009, 04:55 AM	#36
Death from Afar Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND Posts: 1,635	Mike as always is very right. I spoke to my mate who is literally a bomb disposal guy and pointed out that stuff- if priming compound- is very dangerous and could ignite on the friction of running it through a priming tool. I would wear hand and eye protection, and dispose of it with a damp bit of rag. Shame on you federal!

May 14, 2009, 10:49 AM	#38
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Federal is generally thought to have the "softest" primer cups among the major manufacturers, which is probably the root of this entire issue. I have pushed a LOT of Federal primers through my Lee hand prime tool over the years and never had a problem. However, I also NEVER put more than 20 primers in the tray at any one time. If something does happen and they all go up, the effect is going to be far less severe than what it would be were I to have 100 primers in the tray. Maybe, just maybe, I'm being a little anal retentive with this sort of stuff, but to be perfectly honest, primers and black powder scare me because I know you generally don't get second chances at being stupid with them. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 30, 2009, 02:02 PM	#39
4T4MAG Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Posts: 162	Update: after taking the primers back to the store and receiving a toung lashing form the owner, I re-bought the primers. I felt like I could save someone else a great deal of pain and damage to themselves or firearms. I did try to push Federal on the issue. They maintain that the yellow powder can just be dusted off, (B.S.) I used some bore solvent and could not really get it clean enough to use, let alone, have any sort peice of mind that they were going to function correctly after covering them in liquid. It is definitly not worth a KA'BOOM or any thing else.

May 31, 2009, 12:55 AM	#40
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	It's time to escalate the situation. Get in touch with SAAMI and the National Rifle Association's technical department and include those pictures. Federal needs to be held accountable for that kind of quality control lapse and their recommended actions which won't work. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.