Handcuffs or Zip Ties? - Page 2

ShootemDown · February 8, 2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

I'd sooner keep him covered until other LEOs arrive to back up and secure the scene.

All of you keep sayint that as if the cops are going to come anytime soon.. better you get a cold drink..

also. What if you got the buglar at gunpoint, command him to sit and whatever, then u wait for 5 minutes...
then

The perp says, U know what ? I am LEAVING. I am unarmed and you cannot shoot me I am running away from you. You cannot shoot me because I am running away,

he then gets up, and slowly walks towards the door, opens it and leaves...

So whats the point of the holding at gunpoint ?

"a fleeing felon is at no risk to you so you cant shoot"

So do tell...

Creature · February 8, 2008, 04:47 PM

I have been waiting for someone to say they would command the BG place his wallet on the floor and order him to leave or be shot....or even to toss the BG a pen and paper and have him write down his name and address! That the police would know just who to go look for.

Me, I would just as soon as have the BG vacate my domicile post haste before he stinks up the place instead of cuffing him. Any LEO will tell you that handcuffing a suspect is a very dangerous process.

Playboypenguin · February 8, 2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Me, I would just as soon as have the BG vacate my domicile post haste before he stinks up the place instead of cuffing him. Any LEO will tell you that handcuffing a suspect is a very dangerous process.

The reason for that is you have this weird problem of not being an LEO wanna-be or an internet Rambo. You really need to work on that.

spacemanspiff · February 8, 2008, 05:20 PM

Handcuffs can be broken as well. And misuse of them can lead to a lot more headaches. Once you put someone in handcuffs, their safety becomes YOUR responsibility. This does not apply to LE, but to civilians. Means you cannot harm them, and you must prevent them from being harmed while they are cuffed.

Putting cuffs on improperly can cause severe nerve damage to the individual cuffed. You can be sued for it. You can also be charged with 'wrongful arrest'.

On top of all that, handcuffing is NOT easy, especially if the person resists. It can be quite a struggle if you are alone and trying to handcuff someone, hold a gun on them, and they dont want to comply.

Radiki · February 8, 2008, 05:27 PM

+++100 to all the posts about legal ramifications. Basically, if an unarmed bad guy tries to flee and you restrain him in any way, then you are at fault. Even if all the criteria are met you are probably still going to face a large civil suit that could cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend against. If the guy is high or whatever and wants to do nothing but harm to you or somene close then restraint is the only option other than shooting him. But like it has been said. Handcuffing is very dangerous. When I was working for the government, an employee lost it, don't know why, but started flipping desks and threatening other employees. It took two guards, myself and another employee to get the guy in cuffs. I would not want to attempt it in a dark bedroom, by myself, half awake, with anyone else I cared about in the room. My first priority is to protect myself and my loved ones... not to be a hero. The police academy is right up the street if I ever wanted to be that guy.

KMO · February 8, 2008, 06:00 PM

So, while you're holding him for the police, so what if he does decide to get up slowly and leave? If this is what he really does, your problem is over. The goal was never to shoot him, merely to get him to stop doing whatever he was doing in your house. If he becomes a threat while leaving (does something other than leave directly), that will provide justification for further action - problem is over in this case too. So what's the big conflict?

Starscream02 · February 8, 2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Why in the world would you want to keep this guy around? IMO, the goal is to get the BG to go away, not keep him around. Cuffing him up puts you in more danger, standing around with the gun pointed at him puts you in more danger. Tell him to go away.

Well I happen to actually care about the BGs next victims, and the fact that they probably are not armed like me. You can do what you want, but I could not live with myself for pushing a killer on someone else because I just care about me.

Playboypenguin · February 8, 2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Well I happen to actually care about the BGs next victims, and the fact that they probably are not armed like me. You can do what you want, but I could not live with myself for pushing a killer on someone else because I just care about me.

A. Being a burglar and being a killer are too totally different things.

B. With overcrowded prisons, unless he has a firearm or a large amount of drugs on him he will most likely be right back on the street in the morning.

C. All you have accomplished is adding additional risk to a situation and opened yourself up to personal liability.

If you really care about the next victim go join the police force. It is not like it is hard to get in.

ShootemDown · February 8, 2008, 06:55 PM

BRAVO starcream02, thats right. For too long people think safety and criminality is someone else's problem. or its the responsibility of the police. but WE AS A Society, is responsible. I am certain there are more people and there are scum, and if we all deal with the scum properly the FIRST time, there wont be any crime. It is our duty as citizens to be sure the criminals DO NOT get away with crime.

ShootemDown · February 8, 2008, 06:59 PM

PLAYBOY !

Quote:

A. Being a burglar and being a killer are too totally different things.

B. With overcrowded prisons, unless he has a firearm or a large amount of drugs on him he will most likely be right back on the street in the morning.

C. All you have accomplished is adding additional risk to a situation and opened yourself up to personal liability.

If you really care about the next victim go join the police force. It is not like it is hard to get in.

I cant believe I am hearing this from YOU ! what? its not your problem ? System dont work ? personal liability risk ? JOIN THE POLICE

?

Do you want a better world ? or do you just want to not have to be bothered for your 80 year stay on this earth ?

Time to bring out the ball gag ! Someone is being naughty !

Creature · February 8, 2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Shootemdown wrote:
BRAVO starcream02, thats right. For too long people think safety and criminality is someone else's problem. or its the responsibility of the police. but WE AS A Society, is responsible. I am certain there are more people and there are scum, and if we all deal with the scum properly the FIRST time, there wont be any crime. It is our duty as citizens to be sure the criminals DO NOT get away with crime.

I see. Your saying that anyone, at anytime, when they think or feel even the slightest bit threatened, is now judge, jury, and executioner?

skeeter1 · February 8, 2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Neither. Bad idea to get anywhere near a BG especially by yourself. Hold at gunpoint until the cops arrive.

Best advice. With a firearm and cell phone nearby, I have no reason to worry about cuffs or ties. Leave that up to the LEO pros.

Playboypenguin · February 8, 2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Do you want a better world ? or do you just want to not have to be bothered for your 80 year stay on this earth ?

Sorry, but I see a big difference between being a responsible citizen being a "Rambo wanna-be" on an internet forum.

nemoaz · February 8, 2008, 07:56 PM

Quote:

If you truely are a lawyer then you know better.Since you are saying you are a lawyer, and I assume you are a criminal prosecutor since you understand the citizen's arrest codes so well,

Uh oh. Internet knowitall gets his feelings hurt after confusing 4000 posts as the same as higher education. You gave bad advice, and I corrected it. Get over. The list of "charges a person could face for restraining another" is hardly less long than the list of charges a person could face for pulling the gun in the first place. If you are justified, you are justified. If you want to see what the law is in your state, call an attorney in your area. I simply don't have the time to research all 50 states and "cite precedent" for you.

Nevertheless, I will repeat that the untrained person shouldn't try to put cuffs on a bad guy, as it is simply to dangerous for the untrained.

Playboypenguin · February 8, 2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Uh oh. Internet knowitall gets his feelings hurt after confusing 4000 posts as the same as higher education. You gave bad advice, and I corrected it. Get over.

You gave baseless and untrue advice and now evade the topic. Back it up without being snide as an attempt to cover it up.

PS: I will pit my education against yours any day if you like. PM me and we can compare degrees.

kgpcr · February 8, 2008, 08:17 PM

you would have to be a complete idiot to try and cuff him!!!i mean a total dumb arse!!! Why get to within fighting distance of him??? DUMB!!! Keep back and wait for the cops. If you tell them you are holding a guy at gunpoint it wont take them long in most cases. if he gets up and walks out well thats a hell of a lot better than getting close to him and getting in a fight with him! BE SMART!!!

spacemanspiff · February 8, 2008, 08:17 PM

the OP:

Quote:

I'd like to keep either one of these next to my guns in case I have to use them. If someone invaded my home, I'd much rather have them give up then be shot (my girlfriend doesn't want anyone dying on her carpet).

Because the bad guy is ALWAYS going to comply with your commands, right? Even after you have covered him with your weapon, your girl is calling 911, and the bad guy is just going to piddle himself (or herself) and wait for you to take them into custody, right?
So what I foresee happening is you keep on giving commands to 'Lay Down!' 'Stop!' 'I will shoot you! Move to the left so you dont bleed all over the sofa!'
Seriously, are you mentally prepared (as well as one can be that is) to use deadly force? If the person poses enough of a threat that requires you to be armed, why are you hesitating? If you are NOT mentally prepared, you shouldn't even be armed, in my opinion.

ShootemDown · February 8, 2008, 10:26 PM

of course there is a difference between responsible citizen and rambo wannabe.

I think everyone should be a responsible citizen, doing their civic duty.

simply letting the home invader in your home leave your home he just invaded is NOT doing your civic duty.

you must do what you Have to do. whatever it may be. if you have to shoot the invader then do it. I rather any of you shoot the invader and deal with the aftermath, rather than to feel like you "cannot" shoot the invader and then ending up on the morge slab yourself.

ActivShootr · February 8, 2008, 10:32 PM

Neither. I really dont want to get that close to the scum.

From an LE standpoint I think cuffs would be faster to deploy and could be used as a weapon themselves if needed. Maybe zip ties for transport in a wagon.

Starscream02 · February 8, 2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Shootemdown wrote:
BRAVO starcream02, thats right. For too long people think safety and criminality is someone else's problem. or its the responsibility of the police. but WE AS A Society, is responsible. I am certain there are more people and there are scum, and if we all deal with the scum properly the FIRST time, there wont be any crime. It is our duty as citizens to be sure the criminals DO NOT get away with crime.

Quote:

I see. Your saying that anyone, at anytime, when they think or feel even the slightest bit threatened, is now judge, jury, and executioner?

You see?? Care to point out where? Because I fail to see any of the things you claim shootemdown is saying in his actual post.

MikeinLA · February 8, 2008, 10:59 PM

Well, I keep a set of pink fluffy handcuffs in the bedside table, but that's probably a whole 'nother post.

Mike

Creature · February 9, 2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

If you want to see what the law is in your state, call an attorney in your area. I simply don't have the time to research all 50 states and "cite precedent" for you.

Yet you have the time to sit at your computer posting in this forum?

Creature · February 9, 2008, 07:56 AM

doublepost

Mannlicher · February 9, 2008, 08:48 AM

"cuff 'em Danno" is for the Television show.

stephen426 · February 9, 2008, 08:52 AM

This is where the tazer or stun gun comes in handy. Snap, crackle, pop... and its lights out for him. Usually no long term harm done. The you can easily slap the cuffs on and wait for the police. No resisting, no need to shoot him, and no fleeing.

I understand that this is a gun forum, but so far no one has mentioned continuum of force. What if you pepper spray him with one of those that have UV dye for tracking purposes. Heck, he won't be able to see well enough to flee. Be sure to use the kind that fires a stream instead of a fog since you don't want to pepper spray yourselves.

If you do kep cuffs, I would toss them to the bad guy and have him cuff himself. I certainly would not count on the wifey holding him at gun point, and I certainly would not trust her enough to not pop one in me by accident.

February 8, 2008, 05:20 PM	#29
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	Handcuffs can be broken as well. And misuse of them can lead to a lot more headaches. Once you put someone in handcuffs, their safety becomes YOUR responsibility. This does not apply to LE, but to civilians. Means you cannot harm them, and you must prevent them from being harmed while they are cuffed. Putting cuffs on improperly can cause severe nerve damage to the individual cuffed. You can be sued for it. You can also be charged with 'wrongful arrest'. On top of all that, handcuffing is NOT easy, especially if the person resists. It can be quite a struggle if you are alone and trying to handcuff someone, hold a gun on them, and they dont want to comply. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

February 8, 2008, 06:00 PM	#31
KMO Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Location: Northern Arizona Posts: 949	If He Leaves, He Leaves... So, while you're holding him for the police, so what if he does decide to get up slowly and leave? If this is what he really does, your problem is over. The goal was never to shoot him, merely to get him to stop doing whatever he was doing in your house. If he becomes a threat while leaving (does something other than leave directly), that will provide justification for further action - problem is over in this case too. So what's the big conflict?

February 8, 2008, 08:17 PM	#41
kgpcr Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 955	you would have to be a complete idiot to try and cuff him!!!i mean a total dumb arse!!! Why get to within fighting distance of him??? DUMB!!! Keep back and wait for the cops. If you tell them you are holding a guy at gunpoint it wont take them long in most cases. if he gets up and walks out well thats a hell of a lot better than getting close to him and getting in a fight with him! BE SMART!!! __________________ Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag Smith M&P 40

February 8, 2008, 10:32 PM	#44
ActivShootr Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2007 Posts: 1,040	Handcuffs or zip ties? Neither. I really dont want to get that close to the scum. From an LE standpoint I think cuffs would be faster to deploy and could be used as a weapon themselves if needed. Maybe zip ties for transport in a wagon.

February 9, 2008, 08:48 AM	#49
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,210	"cuff 'em Danno" is for the Television show. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

February 8, 2008, 04:47 PM	#27
Creature Junior member Join Date: April 8, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,769	I have been waiting for someone to say they would command the BG place his wallet on the floor and order him to leave or be shot....or even to toss the BG a pen and paper and have him write down his name and address! That the police would know just who to go look for. Me, I would just as soon as have the BG vacate my domicile post haste before he stinks up the place instead of cuffing him. Any LEO will tell you that handcuffing a suspect is a very dangerous process.

February 8, 2008, 05:27 PM	#30
Radiki Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2005 Posts: 145	+++100 to all the posts about legal ramifications. Basically, if an unarmed bad guy tries to flee and you restrain him in any way, then you are at fault. Even if all the criteria are met you are probably still going to face a large civil suit that could cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend against. If the guy is high or whatever and wants to do nothing but harm to you or somene close then restraint is the only option other than shooting him. But like it has been said. Handcuffing is very dangerous. When I was working for the government, an employee lost it, don't know why, but started flipping desks and threatening other employees. It took two guards, myself and another employee to get the guy in cuffs. I would not want to attempt it in a dark bedroom, by myself, half awake, with anyone else I cared about in the room. My first priority is to protect myself and my loved ones... not to be a hero. The police academy is right up the street if I ever wanted to be that guy.

February 8, 2008, 06:55 PM	#34
ShootemDown Junior member Join Date: April 25, 2007 Posts: 254	BRAVO starcream02, thats right. For too long people think safety and criminality is someone else's problem. or its the responsibility of the police. but WE AS A Society, is responsible. I am certain there are more people and there are scum, and if we all deal with the scum properly the FIRST time, there wont be any crime. It is our duty as citizens to be sure the criminals DO NOT get away with crime.

February 8, 2008, 10:26 PM	#43
ShootemDown Junior member Join Date: April 25, 2007 Posts: 254	of course there is a difference between responsible citizen and rambo wannabe. I think everyone should be a responsible citizen, doing their civic duty. simply letting the home invader in your home leave your home he just invaded is NOT doing your civic duty. you must do what you Have to do. whatever it may be. if you have to shoot the invader then do it. I rather any of you shoot the invader and deal with the aftermath, rather than to feel like you "cannot" shoot the invader and then ending up on the morge slab yourself.

February 8, 2008, 10:59 PM	#46
MikeinLA Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2007 Location: Los Angeles........Yes, I know. Posts: 120	Well, I keep a set of pink fluffy handcuffs in the bedside table, but that's probably a whole 'nother post. Mike

February 9, 2008, 07:56 AM	#48
Creature Junior member Join Date: April 8, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,769	doublepost

February 9, 2008, 08:52 AM	#50
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,842	This is where the tazer or stun gun comes in handy. Snap, crackle, pop... and its lights out for him. Usually no long term harm done. The you can easily slap the cuffs on and wait for the police. No resisting, no need to shoot him, and no fleeing. I understand that this is a gun forum, but so far no one has mentioned continuum of force. What if you pepper spray him with one of those that have UV dye for tracking purposes. Heck, he won't be able to see well enough to flee. Be sure to use the kind that fires a stream instead of a fog since you don't want to pepper spray yourselves. If you do kep cuffs, I would toss them to the bad guy and have him cuff himself. I certainly would not count on the wifey holding him at gun point, and I certainly would not trust her enough to not pop one in me by accident. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!