Stay put or go investigate? - Page 2

gb_in_ga · March 2, 2005, 09:07 PM

Zulustyle:

Yes, you do have a point there. For that matter, our motion sensor has been notorious about giving false alarms (we have 3 cats), to the point that it never gets activated, so we rely on the door and window sensors instead.

**JohnKSa** · March 2, 2005, 09:27 PM

I've heard it said that attempting to clear a house by yourself is known in LEO circles as "Looking for a bullet."

Nnobby45 · March 2, 2005, 11:21 PM

Every instructor at every training program I've every went thru, along with every book written by knowledgeable people I've ever read says:

1. House clearing by yourself is pure suicide. You simply don't have eyes in the back of your head. ( A few years ago I read that only one student at the Gunsite Training Center had ever survived the Fun House and didn't "get killed")

2. If a family member is being hurt, then God be with you as you run into a possible ambush to try and help them (as you likely will). I like the go in real fast approach, personally.

3. By all means take up a defensive position and let the intruder be the one to commit suicide by coming to you.

You can't call the police everytime you hear what's probably just the cat,or something explainable, making a noise. You may need to investigate just to insure yourself that everything is ok.

TIP: Electronic hearing protectors can amplify sound so you can hear a flatulated mouse at 10yds. Be careful.

Tamara · March 2, 2005, 11:41 PM

Quote:

I've heard it said that attempting to clear a house by yourself is known in LEO circles as "Looking for a bullet."

"Attempting to safely clear a typical residential structure solo is about as safe as trying to snatch a marble off the bottom of a running Cuisinart."

The Body Bagger · March 2, 2005, 11:47 PM

get yourself an AR with a bunch of 30rd mags loaded with lightweight 35-45 grain ballistic tips.....you hear some noise, just start firing (spray and pray).....and in the morning you can walk out into the living room and see it was just your Glade Air Fresher fan kicking on......

LAK · March 3, 2005, 02:30 AM

Tamara,

As far as phone calls, I can generally make myself clearly understood without raising my voice. My experience with professional dispatchers is that they are generally quite cool and casual on the phone, and I think it is conducive to good communication if the caller is as well. I was really referring to the idea of shouting a warning directed at any intruder "somewhere inside".

jdberger · March 4, 2005, 04:04 AM

Just a quick story about a personal experience.

When I was a younger lad, I didn't have much money and usually lived in mildly sketchy areas of town. I'd had the occasional intruder before - as much my fault for not locking the door as it was theirs for being too drunk to know which apartment they were walking into.

Anyway, somewhat later I was living in a different place, in a studio apartment. I was working in a pawnshop at the time, there was always the possibility that one of my customers had managed to figure out where I lived so I kept a pistol and a shotgun near the bed.

One late night, I woke to a huge loud sound like someone sawing away at my back door. Being that it was a teeny apartment, I figured that I could clear it myself (small box with kitchenette and bathroom). I grabbed the shotgun and crawed out of bed.

The shotgun was a Franchi SPAS 12 with the nifty folding stock. For those unfamiliar, a serious BFG. Honestly, it weighed 10 pounds unloaded.

I realize that the sound is coming from the kitchenette - it is really loud. Adrenaline is dumping into my body, I'm getting tunnel vision - all the fight/flight responses.

I round the half corner to the kitchenette and flick on the light. Out of a closed bag of Lays Potato Chips jumps a mouse which zips down the counter and into a gap between the stove and the wall. Thank goodness I didn't have the finger on the trigger. The first round in that pig was 00. It could have done some serious bad things to my stove.

So...I guess, no moral here. Just an amusing story.

The mouse did come back, but he had a fatal mishap with a trap.

j

kennybs plbg · March 4, 2005, 08:50 AM

I don't think the question was of legal action, it was more ethical. The #1 priority is to protect the family and yourself. If you have an intruder in the home and if "YOU" feel your life or your family is in danger you have the right to waste him.

kenny b

accordingtome · March 4, 2005, 09:27 AM

.

Tamara · March 4, 2005, 09:46 AM

Quote:

The first round in that pig was 00. It could have done some serious bad things to my stove.

Wouldn't've done the mouse any good, either.

Derius_T · March 4, 2005, 10:10 AM

Although it has already been said quite a few times, don't try to clear the house yourself. The only way you leave your defensive position is if you have to get to another family member. Go fast, stay low, and God be with you.

1st priority is to get all the family members behind you so to speak, hopefully in a room with one access point that can be covered. Get on the horn to PD right away. (Some may call me paranoid, but I keep a cell phone on the nightstand, JUST IN CASE that highly trained team of elite ninjas has the foresight to cut my phone lines)

My house is tough, with kids being on pther end of house, but thats why I have a surly old chow and a 200lb english mastiff. (I don't think the big old mastiff would ever hurt a fly, but GOD HE'S BIG, and scares the holy crap out of anyone who sees him, the chow on the other hand, is cranky, old, and just plain mean when it comes to anyone not in his "pack".)

kennybs plbg · March 4, 2005, 12:40 PM

NYS Penal Law, S 35.20 as followes:

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or
terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

It's what is in the mind of the person at the time of the shooting. It boils down to what the person thought or was thinking. A jury must judge by what the person was thinking at the time by being in his shoes. Not what they believe to be right or wrong themselves. As I said before it boils down to what "YOU" believe at the time it happens.

kenny b

jdberger · March 4, 2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Wouldn't've done the mouse any good, either.

Mouse was WAY too fast and me with sleepy eyes and all that. What was so amazing is the huge amount of NOISE the little varmint was making while snacking on my Lays!

I agree that clearing your own house isn't the best idea, but since it was such a small place (500 sq. ft.) and the Murphy bed was right in the middle, my six was clear and I only had to low look around the corner to the kitchenette. There really wasn't a very good place to barricade myself.

hawken50 · March 4, 2005, 01:40 PM

thanks for all the advice. although i wasn't talking about legal repercussions, i appriciate that too. my main concern was what would be safer for my loved ones. taking the fight to the intruder (let's just say it's a crazy hell bent on murder) or letting him come to me, and thus closer to my loved ones. i don't remember who posted it but i think the logic of "if you go to him and get shot, then who protects your family?" rings true. better to stay in an already secure area and not get jumped from behind.

one question about clearing your own house though. i would think because you know your own house, even in the dark, this would give you all the advantages over and intruder whos already tripped over something and woke you up.

i think i'll stick with stay put though

KentuckyGuy02 · March 4, 2005, 03:01 PM

Thank God I live in KY, where if someone enters your apartment/home at night then you have the right to pull the trigger.

Derius_T · March 4, 2005, 03:29 PM

Hawken50 wrote:

Quote:

one question about clearing your own house though. i would think because you know your own house, even in the dark, this would give you all the advantages over and intruder whos already tripped over something and woke you up.

You may know the house, but does that really give you alot of advantage? Worth staking your life on? So intruder has tripped, woke you up, and is now on HIGH ALERT! (if he doesn't run) If its a guy intent to kill you and family, not just rob you, now he's more cautious. Maybe he holes up somewhere where he can see you coming and suprises you? You never know. You can't see everywhere at once. What if there is more than one? Some work in pairs/groups. IMHO, best thing to do would be secure family, secure area, call LEO's, and be ready for a firefight if anything breaks through where you have barricaded yourselves. Your stuff is replaceable. Your kids aren't.

jdberger · March 5, 2005, 12:44 AM

Quote:

What if there is more than one?

Definitely a great point that has been overlooked so far. There may be more than one guy/gal.

Look, here is the deal. You are not Rambo. You cannot effectively clear a house by yourself. yoiu just can't. You can't see behind you, you can't cover all the angles at once. This isn't Doom or Quake. The Delta, FBI's HRT, local SWAT teams all train their asses off to be able to clear a room and survive and they use a 5-6 guy team.

Gather the family. Get somewhere safe. Stay put. Call the cops on your cell. Shoot anyone coming through the door who isn't calling out that they are a cop. The cops are your house clearing team, let them do their job.

You may have rights to shoot in other circumstances - but your life and the safety of your family come first. Don't let your pride get in the way of doing the right thing.

And finally, do you really WANT to shoot and kill another human being? Scumbag or goblin or badguy - you are killing someone's husband/brother/son/dad etc. That is quite the weight for your soul. Not saying that you should give a damn about all that when the goblin comes for you - then they lose thir humanity and get to learn the hard way that the instinct for survival and preservation of the clan trumps the spitiual dilemma.

My favorite president said something to the effect of "walk softly, but carry a big stick."

March 2, 2005, 09:07 PM	#26
gb_in_ga Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Pensacola, Fl Posts: 3,093	Zulustyle: Yes, you do have a point there. For that matter, our motion sensor has been notorious about giving false alarms (we have 3 cats), to the point that it never gets activated, so we rely on the door and window sensors instead. __________________ COME AND TAKE IT http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/batgon.htm Formerly lived in Ga, but now I'm back in Tx! Aaaand, now I'm off to Fla...

March 2, 2005, 09:27 PM	#27
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,049	I've heard it said that attempting to clear a house by yourself is known in LEO circles as "Looking for a bullet."

March 2, 2005, 11:21 PM	#28
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Every instructor at every training program I've every went thru, along with every book written by knowledgeable people I've ever read says: 1. House clearing by yourself is pure suicide. You simply don't have eyes in the back of your head. ( A few years ago I read that only one student at the Gunsite Training Center had ever survived the Fun House and didn't "get killed") 2. If a family member is being hurt, then God be with you as you run into a possible ambush to try and help them (as you likely will). I like the go in real fast approach, personally. 3. By all means take up a defensive position and let the intruder be the one to commit suicide by coming to you. You can't call the police everytime you hear what's probably just the cat,or something explainable, making a noise. You may need to investigate just to insure yourself that everything is ok. TIP: Electronic hearing protectors can amplify sound so you can hear a flatulated mouse at 10yds. Be careful.

March 2, 2005, 11:47 PM	#30
The Body Bagger Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2004 Posts: 818	get yourself an AR with a bunch of 30rd mags loaded with lightweight 35-45 grain ballistic tips.....you hear some noise, just start firing (spray and pray).....and in the morning you can walk out into the living room and see it was just your Glade Air Fresher fan kicking on......

March 3, 2005, 02:30 AM	#31
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	Tamara, As far as phone calls, I can generally make myself clearly understood without raising my voice. My experience with professional dispatchers is that they are generally quite cool and casual on the phone, and I think it is conducive to good communication if the caller is as well. I was really referring to the idea of shouting a warning directed at any intruder "somewhere inside".

March 4, 2005, 04:04 AM	#32
jdberger Member Join Date: July 23, 2002 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 85	Just a quick story about a personal experience. When I was a younger lad, I didn't have much money and usually lived in mildly sketchy areas of town. I'd had the occasional intruder before - as much my fault for not locking the door as it was theirs for being too drunk to know which apartment they were walking into. Anyway, somewhat later I was living in a different place, in a studio apartment. I was working in a pawnshop at the time, there was always the possibility that one of my customers had managed to figure out where I lived so I kept a pistol and a shotgun near the bed. One late night, I woke to a huge loud sound like someone sawing away at my back door. Being that it was a teeny apartment, I figured that I could clear it myself (small box with kitchenette and bathroom). I grabbed the shotgun and crawed out of bed. The shotgun was a Franchi SPAS 12 with the nifty folding stock. For those unfamiliar, a serious BFG. Honestly, it weighed 10 pounds unloaded. I realize that the sound is coming from the kitchenette - it is really loud. Adrenaline is dumping into my body, I'm getting tunnel vision - all the fight/flight responses. I round the half corner to the kitchenette and flick on the light. Out of a closed bag of Lays Potato Chips jumps a mouse which zips down the counter and into a gap between the stove and the wall. Thank goodness I didn't have the finger on the trigger. The first round in that pig was 00. It could have done some serious bad things to my stove. So...I guess, no moral here. Just an amusing story. The mouse did come back, but he had a fatal mishap with a trap. j

March 4, 2005, 08:50 AM	#33
kennybs plbg Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Location: Hemet, Ca. Posts: 524	I don't think the question was of legal action, it was more ethical. The #1 priority is to protect the family and yourself. If you have an intruder in the home and if "YOU" feel your life or your family is in danger you have the right to waste him. kenny b

March 4, 2005, 09:27 AM	#34
accordingtome Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: TeXas, HoUSton Posts: 262	.

March 4, 2005, 10:10 AM	#36
Derius_T Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: South West OHIO (boondocks) Posts: 1,337	Although it has already been said quite a few times, don't try to clear the house yourself. The only way you leave your defensive position is if you have to get to another family member. Go fast, stay low, and God be with you. 1st priority is to get all the family members behind you so to speak, hopefully in a room with one access point that can be covered. Get on the horn to PD right away. (Some may call me paranoid, but I keep a cell phone on the nightstand, JUST IN CASE that highly trained team of elite ninjas has the foresight to cut my phone lines) My house is tough, with kids being on pther end of house, but thats why I have a surly old chow and a 200lb english mastiff. (I don't think the big old mastiff would ever hurt a fly, but GOD HE'S BIG, and scares the holy crap out of anyone who sees him, the chow on the other hand, is cranky, old, and just plain mean when it comes to anyone not in his "pack".)

March 4, 2005, 12:40 PM	#37
kennybs plbg Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Location: Hemet, Ca. Posts: 524	NYS Penal Law, S 35.20 as followes: 3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary. It's what is in the mind of the person at the time of the shooting. It boils down to what the person thought or was thinking. A jury must judge by what the person was thinking at the time by being in his shoes. Not what they believe to be right or wrong themselves. As I said before it boils down to what "YOU" believe at the time it happens. kenny b

March 4, 2005, 01:40 PM	#39
hawken50 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: western new york Posts: 244	thanks for all the advice. although i wasn't talking about legal repercussions, i appriciate that too. my main concern was what would be safer for my loved ones. taking the fight to the intruder (let's just say it's a crazy hell bent on murder) or letting him come to me, and thus closer to my loved ones. i don't remember who posted it but i think the logic of "if you go to him and get shot, then who protects your family?" rings true. better to stay in an already secure area and not get jumped from behind. one question about clearing your own house though. i would think because you know your own house, even in the dark, this would give you all the advantages over and intruder whos already tripped over something and woke you up. i think i'll stick with stay put though

March 4, 2005, 03:01 PM	#40
KentuckyGuy02 Member Join Date: February 4, 2005 Location: Wildcat Country Posts: 30	Thank God I live in KY, where if someone enters your apartment/home at night then you have the right to pull the trigger.