Personal Affronts and Insults -- A Question

[Quartus]

Tam, I'm not sure that I missed his point, but I agree with what you said.

[Ohio Annie]

Ignoring insults is easier and better than reverting to the old gunslinging days when lead was thrown for the slightest insult to a man's honor (or worse, "his woman's" honor). How would history be different if Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr had been the gentlemen they pretended to be?

[pax]

Feelings of trampled honor are really feelings of powerlessness. It's one thing to try to talk yourself into the idea that you're above all that while you're feeling really bad about yourself (good luck) and another thing entirely to actually *be* miles above all that, which you are while packing. You're elevated to a very high level of responsibility, where you all you notice about those who badmouth you is their expression of frustration at *their* powerlessness.

This is absolutely right on.

When you have the power to protect yourself and those you love, you have no longer have any reason to get angry at stupid little insults. The insults just don't have the power over your emotions that they used to, and you aren't nearly as tempted to posture. When someone else postures towards you, you can let them do it because you know what the score really is and they don't.

Regular Daddy, if you're a responsible person (and I have no reason to believe you are not), you will find that there's almost no sense of giving something up when you let go of your ability to play-act at fighting when you put a gun on your hip. Yeah, you'll have to stop doing the posturing game and you'll have to let other people posture towards you without responding in kind. But you won't feel deprived by that: you'll feel empowered by it.

pax

When you open the door to violence, you shouldn't be surprised if more violence walks in than you bargained for. -- Marc MacYoung

[Quartus]

Ignoring insults is easier and better than reverting to the old gunslinging days when lead was thrown for the slightest insult to a man's honor

And so today we have a society where the concept of honor is looked at as a silly idea.


Yeah. That's better.

[Tamara]

And so today we have a society where the concept of honor is looked at as a silly idea.

I maintain that a better understanding of a gentleperson's honor would help to better parse this conversation and avoid misunderstandings.

Out of simple curiousity, how much study of the various Codes Duello have you done?

Myself, I have a very rigid concept of my personal honor, and there is nothing that a semiliterate member of the unwashed rabble can do to call it into question. If a three year-old were to state that you were, for example, a "poopie-head", would this impugn your honor, or would you consider the source and take the comment in stride? A very reductio ad absurdum example, but an illustrative one, nonetheless.

A gentleman would no more challenge a street ruffian to a duel for an insulting comment than he would a cow for stepping on his foot. In either case, a lower life form is acting in the only way it knows how.

[spacemanspiff]

i think its more about the fact that very few actually understand what 'Honor' or 'Respect' truly mean. no one wants to earn respect, they think they deserve it just for existing.

these types of people are quite emotionally immature. they need a daily affirmation that they are 'great'. if anyone says different they are quick to use violence to prove how 'great' they are.

until i started carrying, i never gave this much thought. i always had a sarcastic mouth, and have been fortunate to only talked my way into a small handful of fistfights over it.

one day i uttered a curse towards a driver, who apparently read my lips, and confronted me over it. he wanted a fight, and he probably would have whooped my butt. i had to back down, and placate his ego, because neither of us were in the right.

carrying a gun has helped me swallow my pride and let others *think* they are better than i am. doesnt make me any less of a man. it means i increase my chances of going home safe and sound.

[Quartus]

A gentleman would no more challenge a street ruffian to a duel for an insulting comment

My comment wasn't about WHERE the insult comes from, but about the wretched modern idea that honor is not worth fighting for - period.

We have devalued the concept. "Death before dishonor" is a slogan that is absurd to most Americans today. One would have to be an immature macho idiot to think that honor is worth someone's life! No, much better to have everybody nice and safe. THAT'S the most important thing!

[spacemanspiff]

if you know that you are a honorable person, and those dearest to you also know that much, why should the ignorant statements of someone who doesnt know you matter?

will fighting them prove how honorable you are?

people prove how honorable they are by their actions. they prove how respectable they are by earning it.

throwing punches because someone calls you a name isnt honorable or respectable.

[Dusty Miller]

Carry a gun for use in LIFE THREATENING situations only. If people are harassing you just give'm a big smile and say "HAVE A NICE DAY"!!

[45 Fu]

If there was a day when I was called a "poopie-head" I would consider it a good day.

[Regular Daddy]

Guys, guys, guys, they can call me whatever names they want, just so long as they stay off my [gosh][darn] lawn!

[Quartus]

Well, if it's lawn desecrators you're concerned about, I recommend quad .50s mounted on the roof and aimed via a video link!

[pbass]

Quartus, in certain cultures a man feels dishonored if jilted, to the point that he stalks the woman and throws acid in her face, or if his sister is seen in public with an American or rumored to no longer be a virgin, he kills her to regain his honor (autopsies show the majority of those so killed are indeed virgins). We all know people whose "honor" is similarly fragile. In the US, gang members leap to mind. For them, rep is everything. And there are those who explain to the police that the dead man simply looked at them wrong. Two nights of the week, I work armed security at a movie theater that takes in 8,000 on the typical Saturday night, mostly teens. These young adults (many don't see the movies, but just hang out) delight in showing off to their friends and testing me and the police officer and deputy I work with. There's the look and the spit. There are the racial epithets. There are the stare-downs. There are the plain ol' f*** yous. This goes on with regularity night after night. I have a little theory that they respect our integrity. They take comfort in our constancy. They may not have anyone at home as a role model, but they know we exercise control over ourselves. And they also see that when tested in substantial matters, our response is immediate and decisive, something else they may not witness at home. If I were to go off at every little slight, certainly you could say I was being controlled by teenagers and both you and they would have every right to disrespect me for such self-indulgence. But really, I have no inclination to bite. I feel nothing, no little surge of adrenaline, zilch. I am too intently watching the crowd for something important to do any more than register that these things are happening. This is what I know about honor. The only one who can dishonor a man is himself. He and only he has this power. This is something I have understood since the sixth grade, when a bully sat on my chest on the street beating me as hard as he could. He screamed at me to "give" for half an hour until he was exhausted from all the exertion and got up and went home. However, I allow that you, with experiences different from mine, may not feel this way. Please give us some examples of things others might do that would dishonor you.

[HankL]

What a digression. In simple terms, it is best not to elevate any situation to the point that might require you to engage in physical sport with anyone. Fisticuffs and firearms retention do not go hand in hand.

[pax]

Guys, guys, guys, they can call me whatever names they want, just so long as they stay off my [gosh][darn] lawn!

Regular Daddy ~

Three words: Motion sensor sprinklers.

More than one way to skin a cat.

pax

A committment to avoidance, deescalation and deterrence is your number one option for personal security. -- Andy Stanford

[Quartus]

You have a devious mind, pax.


I like that!



And for the night visitors, add lights to it.

Oh, it helps if your sprinklers are the right kind. You dont' want those wimpy little things that require two hundred to cover your lawn. You want the AT&T brand - the Reach Out And Touch Someone kind!

[Arc Angel]

Tell that to centuries of men who would fight to the death over a matter of honor.

Yeah! Bring back the good old days.

[CQBArms]

The words "intolerant" and "concealed carry" do not go together.

[Double Naught Spy]

While people for centuries have battled and died over honor, such historical precedent does not justify it in any way. Fighting over personal honor is a personal insecurity issue and something of a lack of maturity issue as well.

I really liked spacemanspiff's comments on honor. NO doubt, fighting does not prove honor, restore honor, etc. It may prove who is more capable in the fight, but might does not necessarily have anything to do with honor.

So somebody insults you. Suck it up. You aren't 12 anymore.

[Handy]

I've always enjoyed defending your honor with the deaths of your soldiers. A good massacre will always make a real man stand up a little straighter.


Honor, in most of its classical guises, is not really compatible with a society based on equality. Ethics and civic duty take over that similar role, as government 'by the people' supplants enlightened gentry, or equality taking the place of chivalry.

While 'honor' has had many fine practitioners, it suffers from the same checkered past as organized Christianity. Any concept that grants entitlement as an extension of personal belief is going to be misused and abused.

[xrageofangelsx]

Dwight55

Let us not forget that Moses learned his meekness the hard way. He murdered a man in the heat of the moment before he was expelled from his rich-boy Egyptian life.

It is through his mistake that learned to be respectful.

[JerryM]

I think that King David was a good example of the right attitude regarding personal honor.

In 1 Samuel 17 he slew Goliath because he had defied the God of Israel. David was a mighty warrior for God.

But how different when his own honor was attacked.
2 Samuel 16:5 ¶And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came.
6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left.
7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial:
9 Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head.
10 And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so?
12 It may be that the LORD will look on mine affliction, and that the LORD will requite me good for his cursing this day.

I suspect most of us would have said to take his head off, but David did not.
He knew that his honor did not rest in the opinions of others.
It is interesting that he also addressed those whom he hated.
Psalms 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

What is an insult differs with individuals. But it is never excusable to get into a fight over your own honor, and especially when CCW.

As has been said here, what a thug thinks or says about you has not changed who and what you are.

Jerry

[goalie]

You can afford to have a temper or you can afford to carry a gun. You CAN'T afford both.

[Regular Daddy]

You can afford to have a temper or you can afford to carry a gun. You CAN'T afford both.

Phew, good answer.

[pbass]

What a digression. In simple terms, it is best not to elevate any situation to the point that might require you to engage in physical sport with anyone. Fisticuffs and firearms retention do not go hand in hand.

Here's the legal view of the whole braindead bowing-up-for-honor thing in my state:

http://www.packing.org/talk/thread.jsp?talk_thread=54