Reloading 450 Bushmaster

[Rod311]

So I'm new to reloading and just finished a batch of 556. Turned out great. Then I went to do my straight walled 450 BM and started to get buldging. It's driving me crazy so I tried to push the bullet down further than spec to see if that would help straighten the round out. It did a bit. But still got the bulge.
I've heard that pushing the bullet in further increases pressure. (Not sure how) but I want to be safe.
So getting to my question briefly.......
My formula is lilgun 37.9gr with Hornady .452 245gr. interlock SP. To spec this is the max load for lilgun for 2200fps.
I watched a you tube video of a guy shooting 450bm with 43 grains of lilgun and a Ruger American like mine.
He shot fine. Very accurate and safe looking.
But my questions are.....
how much more pressure does it create to shoot a hotter load than what the book advises? How do I know my barrel can take the increase?
Can I shoot safely 40 grains of lil gun out of my barrel safety?
How can I find out for sure how much pressure is created when the bullet is pressed deeper than spec?

All in all I just want to be safe before shooting these reloads.

My barrell is rated for 38,500.

Thanks for any help or guidance.

[gwpercle]

Do you know what a ... Bullet Puller is ... you might want to buy one .
It's like a pencil eraser ... you can use it to correct mistakes ... pull the bullets , dump the powder and re-do them according to book spec's .
There is no way to know what deep seating bullets will do to pressure with a Maximum Load ... Do Not Take a Chance shooting them !

A case bulge is usually caused by over crimping or crimping / seating in one step ...
At times the crimp is applied while the bullet is still moving downward ... that buckles the case .
Lighten up on your crimp adjustment .
Seat the bullet in one step with no crimping going on .
Apply the crimp in a seperate step with the bullet already seated to book depth .

I buckled my first 38 special loads back in 1967 ... but by seating and crimping in two steps and lightening up on the crimp ... soon got things straighted out !
Load Safe and Good Luck ,
Gary

[mehavey]

Can the OP please tell us:

- What bullet he is using
- What overall cartridge length he intends

... and possibly a picture ?

[Shadow9mm]

Do not go over book max and or load hotter than what is in the manual. Especially with Hornady data. Their load is the max safe working load, there is no fudge factor safety buffer in there. Here is their podcast where they talk about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB8nbr7v_Q0

Are you flaring the case mouth? A lot of times bulged come from a bullet not getting started straight. One of the causes can be inadequate flare and the bullet getting hung up on one side of the case a little and going in crooked.

Check your primers. look for craters, flattened primers, or flowed primers. This is not an exact science, but if you are shooting in the same gun with the same lot of primers you may be able to see some changes. If you get to the point where the primers are no longer round on the corners and are filling the primer pocket, and you have a crater around the firing pin hole area, basically a little ridge. That is the time to stop and back it off. there are other things you can look for like ejector swipes.

As far as seating the bullet deeper. sometimes it has no effect. Sometimes seating it deeper puts if further away from the rifling which lowers pressure and winds up balancing out. Sometimes it increases pressure, how much is hard to say. I regularly seat up to 0.021 deeper than the listed length in the manual. With that said I am so generally a half a grain to a full grain below max so I have a little wiggle room. But I also have the gauges to measure how far my bullet is off the lands and have a good understand where my bullet is in the chamber.

[Rod311]

Here are the specs on the case.
Bullet Diameter: .452
Max COL: 2.25
Max Case Length: 1.70
Case Trim Length: 1.69

[Rod311]

To answer a few questions. I know what a puller is. I did load according to the book specs except for the seat depth "on some of them" I seated 5 of them deeper to try to get the bulge out. I did crimp separately, but they are buldged first. I did not flare any of the cases, I did resize first with case lube. The cases i did not size or flare were NOT buldged.

[Shadow9mm]

you should be sizing cases every time, that sets the neck tension which it mostly what holds the bullet. The crimp helps lock it in place, but most of the work is done with neck tension. if your not sizing its really easy for a bullet to get seated too deep, and get inconsistent seating depths because there is not enough friction from the casing to stop the bullet. if you seat a bullet, before you crimp, and you can push the bullet deeper with your fingers, you do not have enough neck tension.

Flare the case mouths a little. Go by feel. Flare a little, set a bullet on top. the bullet should just go into the case mouth without snagging. This will help the bullets start straight, and keep you from damaging the bullet by having the case shave copper off the side of the bullet.

keep an eye on the bullets to make sure they are going in reasonably straight, when they are going into the die.

Is the bulge there before you crimp? I have had too hard of a crimp before and bulged cases.

To be clear, not trying to beat you up with the questions, just trying to clarify make sure I understand things so I can give you good answers.

[mehavey]

What specific bullet (manufacturer/type) are you using?
What specific COL are you trying to seat to ?

and Please post a picture

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by mehavey

What specific bullet (manufacturer/type) are you using?
What specific COL are you trying to seat to ?

and Please post a picture

Op stated it was an interlock, 245g, .452 diameter. not sure on their current seating depth.

[mehavey]

Looking at both Hodgdon (doing some interpolation since the 245 Interlock isn't listed) and Quickload for the HNDY 245 SP_BshMstr at 2.225', ... 40 gr of Lil'Gun is reeeally pushing it.

(and yes... HNDY 11th has Lil`Gun/37.9 MAX for that bullet.)

I can't visualize the bulge" being discussed, and cannot fathom how seating deeper would "solve" it.
(FWIW, I have loaded for the 450BM w/ that bullet/that powder)

A picture would really help.

.

[44 AMP]

A case bulge is usually caused by over crimping or crimping / seating in one step ...

Overcrimping, roll crimping where there is no crimp groove will buckle a case. Seating and crimping in one step does not. Unless you have screwed something up, that is.

At times the crimp is applied while the bullet is still moving downward ... that buckles the case .

This is entirely incorrect. The bullet is not moving, it is stopped by the seating stem, and the case is moved up over it, and crimped in the final bit of movement.

The .450 Bushmaster is a straight, tapered case. Like all other straight cases, you should be using a 3 die set, a sizer, an expander and a seating/crimping die.

The sizer die resizes the case to slightly BELOW min spec. Generally this leaves the inside of the case slightly too small for the bullet. Seating a bullet without using the expander die will show a bulge in the case due to the bullet diameter. This will happen even when the bullet is seated straight.

The expander die stem returns the inside case neck dimensions to the proper diameter to accept the bullet without bulging the case. Normally there is a "step" or tapered portion at the upper end of the expander that is larger, and it flares the case mouth. It should be adjusted to give enough flare so you can set the bullet in the case mouth, straight. It is possible to over flare, and under flare.

The body of the seater die "straightens out" the flare, and usually has a crimp shoulder in it so that it can be adjusted to crimp the case as well.

In the .450 Bushmaster, it should be a taper crimp, which is usually not an easily seen "step" the way it is with a roll crimp die.

The proper way to load the ammo is to size, flare, then seat & crimp.

The seater die can be adjusted to seat and crimp in one step. Its really pretty simple, and once done (and locked in) it works well. HOWEVER, your brass needs to be of a uniform length. Roll crimps are very picky about that, taper crimps a bit less so, but not a huge amount.

Take a factory round, and with the seater die backed out an inch or so, (and the seating stem also backed out in the die body, run the loaded round up into the press and then screw the seater die body down over it, until you get a firm contact with the factory round's case. Snug that down with the lock ring, then turn down the seating stem until it contacts the bullet.

Snug the stem down, and then load a round or two of your reloads using that adjustment setting on your die. Rounds should come out proper length and crimp. Sometimes a tiny bit more adjustment is needed, sometimes, not.

Take your reloads and test fit them into your gun. IF they fit, you're good to go. If not, make SMALL changes to the seater die so the rounds do fit your chamber.

now, about this....

But my questions are.....
how much more pressure does it create to shoot a hotter load than what the book advises? How do I know my barrel can take the increase?

The answer to this depends on several factors, primarily what powder is being used, and how much of a change is made to the volume of space the powder is in.

Can I shoot safely 40 grains of lil gun out of my barrel safety?

What does your load data say? If it doesn't list 40grs, then the answer is "no".

How can I find out for sure how much pressure is created when the bullet is pressed deeper than spec?

Again, this depends on the amount of change to the area the powder is in. There are ballistic software programs that can calculate this, giving the needed inputs.

My barrell is rated for 38,500.

No, its not. 38,500 psi is the SAAMI max working pressure for the cartridge.
This is the max safe working pressure, a level that can be used day in and day out without putting any excessive stress on your rifle or its ammo.

Your rifle is proof tested to a much higher pressure level, so it is known to be safe at the standard max working pressure.

DO be aware that each rifle and ammo combination can be slightly or even more than slightly different. Some guy on U Tube shooting 40gr of powder in his rifle does not mean yours will do so. It might, but only careful testing, working up to that level will prove if it will, or not.

DO NOT EXCEED published data. It has been tested. Going beyond that, you're off the map and "there be dragons here" wake one and they could eat you! (meaning you could suffer damage to your rifle or even yourself!!)

Good Luck, we're here to answer your questions and give what advice we can.

[Rod311]

Thank you everyone that replied. I have a much better understanding of the reloading rules now. I'm going to get 2 more tools. A bullet puller and and expander.
I thought the 223 would be more difficult than a straight wall car cartridge. I was wrong. I want to be safe but some I'd the information out there is confusing if your new at this. I will repost with some pics( if I could get it to work) when I have the next batch compete.

Thanks again for all your help.

[mehavey]

Most all Bushmaster die sets should already have an expander

What set do you have ?

[GeauxTide]

I watched a you tube video of a guy shooting 450bm with 43 grains of lilgun and a Ruger American like mine.
He shot fine. Very accurate and safe looking.

Reloading is a precision hobby and it can be dangerous if looks safe becomes safe to you. What I'm trying to impart is Hornady developed and manufactures the cartridge and bullets. Using their loading data, I get 1/2" groups through my AR.

Looking at your comments, I surmise that you've got your mind set. Good Luck and I hope you keep your eyes and hands.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Rod311

Thank you everyone that replied. I have a much better understanding of the reloading rules now. I'm going to get 2 more tools. A bullet puller and and expander.
I thought the 223 would be more difficult than a straight wall car cartridge. I was wrong. I want to be safe but some I'd the information out there is confusing if your new at this. I will repost with some pics( if I could get it to work) when I have the next batch compete.

Thanks again for all your help.

Each has its own issues. From my perspective bras prep is harder with bottleneck cases and easier with straight wall. However I have found it easier to mess up the actual loading on straight walled cases and buckle/bulge cases.

Looking at the die sets available, your die set should have 3 dies in it. You should have a sizing die, expander die, and bullet seating die. You should not need to buy an expander/flare die, it should be included.

Looking into the base of the die there should a cone or bullet shaped bump inside. that goes into the case to open the mouth up the mouth.

[Unclenick]

Rod311,

Can you say a little more about the bulge? Understand that in order to have a grip on the bullet, something that is needed to provide adequate delay in release of the bullet for the powder pressure curve to behave consistently, the case must be narrower than the bullet. The bullet, when inserted, will then produce the appearance of a slight bulge because it is expanding the cylindrical case where it is over top of the bullet. This is normal. But two other situations can arise:

One is where the bullet slips on the flare of the case's mouth, so it starts into the case crooked. Even though it largely straightens out as it seats, some tilt can remain, and so you see the location of the bottom of the bullet inside the case mirrored on the outside of the case, almost all on one side of the case. That makes the bulge look bigger, though it is unusual for this to interfere with chambering in any way. There should be a slight bulge all the way around the case if the bullet went in straight. Using a Lyman M die to form the flare will largely cure the tilting entry of the bullet into the case.

The second, more drastic situation arises from over-crimping with a roll crimp shoulder in a die. This can bulge the brass outward below the edge of the sharp roll near the case's mouth and may cause chambering interference. Taking it even further, the case can accordion and thus be ruined.

I don't know what you are seeing, so please describe it.

[tangolima]

Hornady seating die has a sleeve to guide the bullet's attitude. Lee factory crimp die will fix the failure to communicate post-seating if need be.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[mehavey]

450BM headspaces on the mouth.
All you really want is to straighten the flare out.

Worst case "bulge" resolution: run the cartridge partially up in the sizing die.

[44 AMP]

Worst case "bulge" resolution: run the cartridge partially up in the sizing die.

You don't want to do that with a straight case loaded round. You MIGHT get away with it with a straight taper case loaded round, depending on the degree of taper and how deep you run the case into the die.

The risk is, that while you are sizing the case to "iron out" the bulge, you might be compressing the bullet as well, and that can lead to issues because of the different amount of "spring back" between the brass case and the lead and copper of the bullet.

[mehavey]

`Do it all the time as req'd. Both 350 LGD and occasionally the Bushmaster
The key is "partial," and by feel. As you note -- take care.
(Don't try to correct gross blunders)
Not a big deal.

Note its use here:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post5457368

OTOH, FCD is useful/same principle in taper die design. again set up by feel and in moderation.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post5591114
Similar caveat.



I do wish the OP could/would post a picture.

.

[44 AMP]

I've generally always felt it was better to do it right the first time, than to do it over, or use some special tool to fix what you shouldn't have screwed up in the first place.

I would like to see a picture or three of the "bulge" the OP is concerned about.

Sometimes, everything can be "right" and you still see a bulge, but unless it creates an issue chambering or firing, its just cosmetic.

The sizer die squeezes the case down to slightly below min specs for the cartridge. Sometimes, its more than "slightly", and this can result in a visible bulge when you seat the bullet.

Long ago I got a set of Lee .357 dies. They worked, ok, but the sizer die was so "tight" that there was a visible "step" where the die stopped just before the solid head of the case. And those "over-resized" cases usually had another visible step, where the expander stem stopped. Which often was more pronounced after the bullet was seated.

It didn't affect the shooting in any way, but to me, it looked fugly, and I felt the brass was being overworked. My Lyman dies didn't do that, my RCBS dies didn't do that, that Lee sizer got tossed into a box, and I haven't seen it in decades. I do use the seater die from that set, though. I use it for those rare times when I load RN lead bullets. Its simpler and easier to swap out the already set up die than to change the seating stem and adjust it.

Either the OP is getting bulges because he's not seating his bullets correctly, or possibly he's seeing a bulge because the case is sized in a "tight" die. A picture would be an enormous help to understand what he's seeing.

[MarkCO]

Unclenick and 44AMP have most of the bases covered.

My only add is that LilGun is hot (burn temp) spikey (in the pressure curve) unforgiving and clumpy. It's had it's issues with Magnum revolver cartridges. Good for high pressure shotgun (which is below Magnum Revolver pressures) load in the 20g on down and some 300BO and some other mild calibers. My personal opinion, having used a lot of it, is that is is not well suited to the higher pressure cartridges in Revolver and Centerfire rifle, like over 32 KPSI.

You might be better off with a different powder for the .450BM. Accurate 1680, 4100, 11FS, H110, W296 provided better results, more consistency and better groups for me. Realize the the 38,500 psi was due to Bushmaster making changes to the 450 Professional to use a Carbine length gas system. Tim was not exactly enthused about it, but it is what it is.

[mehavey]

...always felt it was better to do it right the first time,
than to do it over, or use some special tool to fix what
you shouldn't have screwed up in the first place.

`Can't ever argue w/ that.

Sure would like to see on OP/pic.

[georgehwbush]

Rod311; there is a lot of reloading for beginners information out there, one thing to learn first is; don't be in a hurry to get a "hot" load, start with minimum powder charges and work your way up in small steps, watching for signs of "high pressure". at first sign of pressure STOP. back down to the next lower charge weight, that will be the "max load" for your combination of cartridge bullet gun powder primer...

some of the signs will be slight flattening of the primer cup after firing. cratering of the firing pin into the primmer. "should be a dimple not a crater". flattening of the head stamp lettering on the case heads. heavy extraction. "fired shells should extract easily, with simi-autos you will notice eratic ejection as a sign the shell is starting to become sticky in the chamber".

start low and work up.


this is not exhostive by any means.