.357 Mag failures

[cdoc42]

About a week ago, I loaded 100 rounds of .357 Mag for my Ruger GP-100, and around the tenth round, it would not slide into the cylinder as expected. Several others did the same thing, so I stopped and two nights ago I tried inserting every remaining round to find 60 that would not drop in. They did not all stop at the same point. That led me to check the remaining 250 I had loaded some time ago.
Every one of them slid right into the cylinder.

After removing the decapping pin from the resize die, I pulled all the bullets and resized the cases with the powder still inside. Then, one by one, I dumped the powder into the digital scale pan and expanded the case mouths with my Lyman
Neck Expander, M-1 c-19, that has “38AP” on the tip of the expander ball. The cases all vary in length between 1.280 – 1.290, with most being around 1.284 or 5, and just a few less than 1.280. I varied the expander to just enough to start the bullet and a few out too far such that the seater die would not seat the bullet. The majority were expanded enough to start the seat.

What I did differently was seating the bullet and crimping in two separate procedures.
Aha! Problem solved! They were all sliding right into the cylinder as expected.
All except for 5 out of the 60…….!!!!

So the first question that arises is what happened when I seated and crimped simultaneously that caused the cartridges not to fit into the cylinder?

I just finished measuring those 5 cartridges, and I’ll summarize because I found that making a table doesn’t copy and paste as it should.

The cartridges range in COAL at 1.586 to 1.591” with the target being 1.590.”

The bullet is a Winchester 125gr JHP with a diameter of .357” (measured multiple times and confirmed with a digital micrometer; the Winchester bag just says (.38/357) at the base and .349” at the cannelure. The bullet alone drops into the GP-100 cylinder but stops at the exit with just the lead tip showing; all of the copper jacket remains in the cylinder. I have a Taurus 2-inch .38/.357 and these bullets drop completely through the cylinder.

The cases are nickel and are either RP or Win Western, resized many times, but no signs of cracked necks or loose primer pockets.

The cylinder of the GP-100 measures .377” at the entrance and .350” at the exit. Although there may be a discrepancy in my accuracy with a Lyman Digital caliper, the fact that the bullet does not fall out at the exit lead me to believe that maybe my COAL was too long, preventing the cartridges from chambering. But none of the 1.590” COAL loads that DO fit do NOT have the lead tip sticking out of the cylinder. They are all inside. So back to square one.

So, I measured the cases that would not chamber and compared the results to a cartridge case that DOES chamber.

The 5 misfits case range in OAL from 1.275” (1) to 1.290”. The three remainders are 1.284, 1.286 and 1.288. The case that DOES fit measures 1.276.

I measured each of them at the base, just under the case rim – all are either 0.379 or 0.380” including the case that fits. The mouth – with the bullet seated – also measures 0.375 to 0.380 except for the cartridge that fits; here it measured 0.376.”

Then I measured each case at 25%, 50% and 75% of the distance from the mouth of the cases, and they ALL measure 0.375” at 25% and 50%, and 0.380 at 75% (and just under the rim).

Then I inserted the cartridges that stick and measured the spot on the case where it stopped. There is no pattern other than they all stick after 50% of the cartridge is inserted (range 62% to 79% of the length of the case).

When I resize the cases, I always continue pushing the handle down until the shell holder maxes the excursion to just touching the die – not camming over at all, so I don’t think I’m failing to fully resize the case.

I also bought a headspace device made by Lyman that checks cartridges from .380 Auto to .45 ACP. ALL of the 60 failures that I had fit in that device.

I’m probably missing something simple, as often happens when one “overthinks” a situation. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[mehavey]

what happened when I seated and crimped simultaneously
that caused the cartridges not to fit into the cylinder?

You can seat/crimp simultaneously if the crimp action starts at the bottom of the crimp groove/cannelure and therafter moves into the groove as the case mouth rolls over-- as long as you don't overcrimp.

If crimp starts too early -- or too deeply -- the case mouth grabs the bullet itself and pushes the case (as well as the bullet) down as the seater continues.

...buckling/expanding the case the case right below the bullet base.

[44 AMP]

The 5 misfits case range in OAL from 1.275” (1) to 1.290”. The three remainders are 1.284, 1.286 and 1.288. The case that DOES fit measures 1.276.

I believe this is the source of your problem, different case lengths and a single crimp setting. (as you made no mention of adjusting for different case lengths)

Seating and crimping in one step is possible and I do it often, BUT it requires cases with uniform lengths and variances over a couple thousandths screw it up. Likewise seating and crimping in separate steps, ALLOWS you to adjust the die for different length cases easily, but only works if you do adjust for each different length case. Set it on one case, longer cases get too much, shorter ones not enough, etc.

Loading cases ranging from 1.275" to 1.290" with the same die adjustment means some aren't going to be right.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but that's what it looks like to me.

[cdoc42]

Mehavey, That's one of those things that I looked at, and the crimps WERE looking pretty deep but I could not explain it the way you did. Even though I measured the cartridges right at the mouth where the crimp rolls over I could not discern an increase in size that would explain why they stopped almost 75% of the way in.

44AMP, I agree with everything you said. Over the years I've grown to be lazy with handgun reloading, never checking the case sizes even though I recognize after-the-fact that a short case received less crimp. I've just never had a issue with the final round until recently and that's usually what wakes one up to clean up your act.

I'll redo these 5 again, and trim them to the same size. If the size range is 1.280 to 1.290 (as the "book" says), is it safe to assume THOSe don't have to all be the same exact size?

Any thoughts on why the bullet itself passes through the Taurus cylinder but not through the GP-100?

[Unclenick]

cdoc42,

The excess diameter would not be at the mouth, but below it. I expect, due to the case length variation, you are making some of these (exaggerated for illustration purposes:



If you don't want to trim cases and your precision requirements are satisfied by rounds with some crimp variation, buy a copy of the Redding Profile Crimp Die. It has a scheme that marries taper and roll crimps to make the latter very hard while the taper below it holds the sides in, preventing that bulge effect.

[cdoc42]

Unclenick, interesting. So I may have been measuring the cases at 25% which is actually below the offending obstruction. Good thing I'm retired with nothing else to do while waiting for my Flex-Seal to dry on a 2 x 6 frame I'm making to surround the base of our Generac generator.

I think I'll try lightening up on the crimp on cases in the mid-range of acceptability to see if that makes a difference.

[44 AMP]

What will make a difference is getting your brass to within .005" of each other, not .010", and the smaller the range, the better.

As Uncle Nick's picture illustrates, what happens when the case is too long for the crimp you have set with your die, it still gets crimped (deeply) and while the crimp is the correct diameter, the case bulges out below the crimp, and THAT is probably why some of your rounds aren't chambering.

The same result happens when your seating die is not set to put the cannelure at the case mouth. The die crimps the case into the bullet (or tries to) and the case bulges. With bottle neck cases, the shoulder can bulge, or even buckle if you try to crimp where there is no groove.

Adjustment is a balancing act, but not a difficult one, though from what I read here a lot of people don't get it right, and often go to some kind of "factory crimp die" which seems to have simpler adjustments that they can figure out...

Cases should be the same length, or as close as possible. That's the part many people don't do....

Doesn't matter a lot exactly what the length is, (as long as its below max) and the recommended trim to length is a good spot. Uniform case length means that your die adjustments will produce the same results with every case. With uniform case length, you seat the bullet so the middle of the crimp groove is even with the case mouth. Then back the seating stem off a few turns, and turn the die body down until the crimp shoulder contacts the case mouth. Then, working with fractions of a turn, turn the die body down further to produce the amount of crimp desired.

When you're there. lock the die body down, and turn the seating stem back down to a firm contact with the bullet.

Remove your test round and and make another, seating and crimping in one step. Check that round, if it looks right, put it in the chamber/cylinder and see that it fits properly. It should, and once you know it does, then you're ready to produce rounds in volume.

BUT if your cases vary too much, this same adjustment will create a bad round, either way, too much crimp/crimp in the wrong place for the bullet cannelure.

I've been doing it the way I described since the early 70s when I started. It works. It is however something where, if you don't do your prep correctly you won't get good results.

[jetinteriorguy]

Another thing to consider is using a Lee Collet crimp die. No chance of buckling a case and they are more tolerant of case length differences. They are also easier on the brass as far as necks splitting. I just keep all of my brass within +-.005” and have no problems with getting a secure crimp.

[cdoc42]

Well, another lesson in you're never too old to learn something. All these years in loading .38 Special, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt and .454 Casull, I've never paid much attention to the crimp being exactly in the cannelure because I never had any problems.

But I will pay attention now! I want to thank everyone for their interest and advice, and although this is not appropriate for the intent of The Firing Line, it might be valuable to share the site with our renowned politicians so they can browse just to see what can be accomplished by sharing ideas and cooperating with each other.

[mehavey]

You can most likely recover those bulged rounds by partial resizing

Unscrew/remove decapping stem:

- Run round up in empty press
- screw sizer down until it engages case/
- Lower cartridge case
- One half turn at a time, screw sizer down and run round up to squeeze/taper
- Check in cylinder...
. . . . . .
- Repeat as req'd

[cdoc42]

mehavey, just today I repeated the process I mentioned in my post. I pulled the bullets.
Then I removed the decapping pin from the resize die and full-length resized the cases with the powder still inside. I transferred the powder to fired cases, then expanded the mouths of the primed cases after measuring and trimming those needed to get to the middle of the recommended length, 1.285." I returned each charge to the primed cases after weighing each to be sure no loss was incurred.

I made a dummy round with a 1.285 case and adjusted the crimp so the mouth of the case was right in the middle of the cannelure, which also happened to be where I was previously, at 1.590." I found that I had the crimp set too deeply originally, which agreed with the respondents herein.

I then reseated the bullets to 1.590", followed by lighter crimping, and all rounds fell into the chamber as expected!

END of the problem!

[44 AMP]

That might work, but I would recommend against it, because if your sizer die is on the "tight" side, you'll be squeezing the bullet too, and that might not be the best thing.

Pull the bullets, then dump the powder back where it goes, size the primed case (pull the decapping stem) then flare and charge the case, seat and crimp the bullet normally.

Bullets and brass have different amounts of "spring back" after being squeezed. Sizer dies are made to allow for the usual amount of brass spring back and so are "small" so the sized case springs back to proper dimensions.

Squeezing the bullet in the sizer die could result in the case "springing back" away from the bullet when it comes out of the die. Which might result in the bullet only being held in place by the crimp.

You don't want that.

Pull the round down size, then put it back together normally. Its more work, but its the best way to do it.

[cdoc42]

44AMP, I think you read too fast. My second and third sentences were:

" I pulled the bullets.
Then I removed the decapping pin from the resize die and full-length resized the cases with the powder still inside."

I did not try to resize the case with a bullet in it.

[mehavey]

ALCON: You don't resize the case.
You merely/gently taper the case "bulge" back in -- by feel and very slight use of the die.
Saves a lot of time/frustration/bullet pulling.
You don't FL size the cartridge at all.

Try it next time..

[cdoc42]

mehavey, thanks for the clarification. It makes a ton of sense and you're certainly correct about the time-saving. It would have made doing 60 cases much less difficult. I hope there is no "next time...."

44AMP, I apologize to you; I must have read too fast and didn't recognize your post was related to mehavey's.

[Butzbach]

cdoc42. Your life sounds frighteningly similar to mine. Here's to retirement!

[cdoc42]

Butzbach, One thing I discovered so far is that getting older is not associated as much with a failure of cognitive performance as it is with having too much time to think about things. Decision-making is easier when you're younger simply because you don't have time to ponder.
My wife asked me how it feels to be 80 years old. I told her I've been 80 for the last year. As of today, I'm 80.093 years old.

[cdoc42]

Mehavey, you should know about this; it was your suggestion that prompted resolution.

I have a Freedom Arms .454 Casull and I'm confident that the very close tolerances are well known. If the primers are not exactly deep enough, the cylinder will not turn; a piece of standard computer paper will pass between the cylinder and frame, but nothing larger.

I loaded some .45 Colt loads with 300gr Hornady XTP with H-110 and 2400. In the past, 2400 produced a 25-yard, 4 shot group of slightly less than 0.5 inches with 250gr XTPs.; the 5th shot was out of the group but I had noted the crip was not as tight as the others.

In any event, I loaded 8 of each. Two of the H110s and 3 of the 2400s would not chamber. I tried passing them through the .454 resize die as Mehavey suggested but they would not advance at all presumably because of the diameter of the bullet, which is .452.

So I checked the Lyman 50th edition to find the .454 case mouth is .451 while that of the .45 ACP is .452. I removed the priming pin from the .45 ACP and gently entered the .454 rounds in just partially - and every one of them slid right into the .454 chamber!!

Thank you again!

[44 AMP]

Take a look at the case specs (and realize the sizers will be slightly smaller).

The .45 Colt case mouth is listed as .480"
The .454 Casull is listed as .478"

The .454acp is listed as .473".

Data from Hornady manual...

So I checked the Lyman 50th edition to find the .454 case mouth is .451 while that of the .45 ACP is .452.

I think you misspoke, BULLET diameter is .451, .452, case mouth is larger.

[cdoc42]

44AMP, yep, you are correct. I looked at the Lyman 50th again and even though there is a generic bullet pictured, the reference lines led me to think that was the mouth diameter.

I used Colt 45 cases to load for the .454 Casull. I've done this before with no problems.
The bullets are Hornady .452, 300gr XTP, and I've used the 250gr XTP as well. Should not that bullet fit the .478 Casull and the .480 Colt mouths? I did measure the cases to be certain they were not longer than the mid-range, 1.285." I did notice a bulge approximating the area near the base of the bullet so perhaps it went in slightly cockeyed to cause the problem.

Before I corrected it as described I tried the 5 stuck cases in my Taylors 1873 .45 Colt and the .45 Colt Judge and they all went in. So maybe the Freedom Arms holds tight tolerances and the large mouths of the .45 colt cases explains it? I have not read where Casull cases should only be used for .45 Colt loads, and it's my understanding that Casull cases are longer and thicker than the .45 Colt cases.

[44 AMP]

something to keep in mind is the tolerances involved and also the published specs.

Generally speaking and unless other wise stated, the specs on the case drawings in the loading manuals are the max limits.

Add into this the fact that the firearm chambers are going to be cut to allow the easy insertion of the max spec ammo, and that they also have their own +/- tolerances.

and then add in that sizer dies are going to be cut to produce SMALLER than max spec ammo, possibly even smaller than the min spec ammo,

Lots of combinations of tolerances are possible, and Freedom arms has a reputation of being held to "tight tolerances" and these are areas where +/- .001" might be workable and +/- .002" might not be.

[mehavey]

entered the .454 rounds in[to the ACP sizing die[ just partially -
and every one of them slid right into the .454 chamber!!

`Love it when a plan works out

[Mike / Tx]

I know that the common mantra is "I have never trimmed any revolver brass".

As you have found, sometimes it takes a trim for things to work properly. I hunt with several magnum revolvers, a couple of revolver caliber chambered Contender's and lever action rifles. My ammo works just fine in all of them, but a bulged crimp will stop up in most all of them.

Running a speed loader will make you say stuff that's usually not socially acceptable. What's a REAL pain is when you shove one almost to battery in a lever gun.

While most of the time trimming isn't needed, I've found it is a simple task that saves a LOT of anguish in the field. Not only that but I've usually gotten better accuracy due to the consistent crimps.

Glad things worked out for you. The trimming is usually only needed once in a while, but if you save a set up case, it's real easy to check everything then set the trimmer and touch off on the longer ones.

[44 AMP]

Another spot where uniform length is a big plus is usually glossed over, and that's in case mouth flaring. And for the same reasons as crimps.

Set your die using a "too short" case, and regular length cases get too much flare. And the reverse is true as well adjust for a long case, short ones don't get enough flare. Not quite as directly important as the crimp, but it does affect how much your brass gets worked, and that, over time affects case life.

I know that the common mantra is "I have never trimmed any revolver brass".

Maybe they haven't, so what?? Maybe they never needed to, again, so what??? doesn't mean jack to me, as I don't have their gun, their components or their ammo.

I rarely need to trim my pistol brass. BUT I DO CHECK length, often. About every time. Maybe its a lot of wasted effort, but things just seem to work better for me when I do it.

[Mike / Tx]

I rarely need to trim my pistol brass. BUT I DO CHECK length, often. About every time. Maybe its a lot of wasted effort, but things just seem to work better for me when I do it.

Absolutely agree, my point above exactly. Having multiple batches of brass, or brands, and/or multiple firearms that shoot the same calibers can also cause slight issues as mentioned above.