Advice on a do it all shot-gun

[Pistoler0]

Hello all,

first, I just realized that the forum has areas for pistol and rifle discussions, but none for shot-guns. I did not know where to post this thread, apologies if it is in the wrong spot.

Anyway, my situation is that I am limited by budget and by agreement with spouse to ONE firearm of each category: one pistol, one bolt action rifle, I recently convinced her that I also needed a semi-auto rifle/carbine, and lastly one shot-gun. I do not own a shot-gun yet, I am starting to do a bit of research on them.

I would anticipate that I would use this shot-gun mostly for shooting turkeys, birds and small game, and also for trap/skeet and competition. I do know that shotguns are good self-defense tools, but I got other tools for that and so this role is less important to me.

I think that I have decided that 12 ga and pump action would be most versatile and most reliable/lowest maintenance, but I have serveral questions:
- what barrel length? 24" 26" 28" 30" ?
- what choke type?
- lastly: what brand model?

Budget would be < $1000 hopefully < $600.

I have researched the Mossberg 500, but then there is the 535, 590, and the 835. I just do not understand what the differences between these is and Google is not much help to me because I do not understand the intricacies of shot-gunning.

And there is the Remington 870 and the IAC Hawk 892 which is a super cheap but good quality Chinese clone.

And I lusted over the Kel-tec KSG 25 because it looks like a fun toy, but apparently it is not very reliable and has a tendency for short stroking failures.

Finally, I don't anticipate I'd be a dedicated shot-gunner, pistol shooting is what I enjoy most. I just want to have ONE shotgun in my collection so I don't miss out on outings with friends and acquaintances who are shotgun shooters.

Any help? Whatever guidance you can give would be much appreciated.

[TXAZ]

You can find the shotgun forum here:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2

If you're on a budget, there are some very good pump shotguns at (somewhat) decent prices.

[kenny53]

I am not much of a shot gunner but have three. Two are Winchester 1300. The first is just your plain everyday shot gun with three screw in chokes and 26" barrel I think. The second Winchester is the 1300 defender, 18.5" barrel with 7 rounds in the tube and one in the chamber. My third gun is a Stoger coach gun SxS 18.5 barrels. The 1300's are no longer made but they are a lot like other guns out there.
The Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 would great choices, the KSG 25 would be fun to have like the Kel Tec Sub 2000. But hunting with one may be tough if you have to plug the tubes. Mossberg puts a economy shotgun "Maverick 88" I
have heard good things about them. Cost is around $200. I think if I was in your shoes I would get the run of the mill shot gun with the 26" barrel or try and find a shot gun with two barrels one being 18" variety. I don't know how long you have been married but it's been 48 years for me and my bride. When we were first married I was told no guns where allowed in the house. I will not put a number the guns but there are three gun safes. So you may find your loving wife may ease up on the restrictions place on your hobby.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by kenny53

you may find your loving wife may ease up on the restrictions place on your hobby.

he he he, 12 years here. Next thing I'll try to negotiate in is a crossbow. I already got a compound and a recurve ; )

Thank you for the advice (on both matters)

[stinkeypete]

There are only three guns for you to consider:

1. Remington 870 Wingmaster
2. Mossberg 500
3. Ithaca Model 37

These will hold their value or appreciate and the few dollars saved getting something else could very well cost you dearly in regret and frustration.

1. Remington is currently out of business but I would buy a new 870 WINGMASTER in a heartbeat. Parts are everywhere and gunsmiths all know how to work on them. It's the standard "Classic American Pump" gun. I would not care to own the new cheaper "express" 870, the Mossberg is far better.

2. Mossberg 500. Not as fancy as the others but a real bargain. Safety is on the tang, while the others are on the trigger guard. Dead reliable, classic, anyone who sees you in the field with a Mossberg 500 will nod and say "good gun". If needing to buy a new gun immediately and price is crucial, this is the safe bet.

3. Ithaca Model 37. The elite of the pump guns. Ithaca Model 37 came out around 1937, designed by the legendary JM Browning. Still making them new, factory customization, lighter than the others by enough to feel after a long hike. Your wallet will be lighter, too. (I am thinking of buying a new one yet my old one, built in 1945, is still a strong reliable, silky smooth pheasant gun.) For a long day's hike pheasant hunting, this is the ultimate- just my opinion.

Most important fact between them: FIT. It's all about how the gun fits you personally, because you don't "aim" a shotgun, you mount to your shoulder, look at the moving target, and your head and eye are the rear sight. When it fits right, you hit what you look at when your swing and lead are good.

For having only one shotgun, I would see a specialized gun shop with a real gunsmith that can help you pick a gun, then help you fit the stock if needed. (It's generally about $70 or so to get things roughed in if your stock needs cutting or shimming.) If you just buy a gun off the rack, you might get lucky or you might never know why you can't hit a thing. Worth the money, ESPECIALLY if you are new! Some big box stores might have someone that can fit you, some might have some kid that usually works in the shoe department.

New vs Used
Any of the three above I would prefer to buy gently used over new. They are all very reliable and rarely break. Once you get a few scratches from busting through brush, there is no difference. Additionally, the new owner went through the most important first few boxes of shells break in. If it survives that, it will most likely go another 50 years or more.

Flexibility- you want to go from bunnies to turkeys with no compromise, you need a gun that takes removable chokes.

Many fine older guns have fixed chokes. My fixed full choke means I can shoot pheasant, duck, turkey (not the best but it'll work) at the expense of rabbits and quail and grouse or skeet specialization.

Likewise an open choke or Improved Cylinder is good for quail, grouse, bunnies, skeet, at the expense of the long range birds and Trap. Forget Trap, it's not gonna work.

Modified Cylinder really will do everything okay, at the expense of improvements up close or far away. Not that bad though, if you are willing to wait for your turkey to get within 35 yards. An old Wingmaster or Model 37 with Modified fixed choke means you never forget your choke tubes someplace. (They're expensive).

Finish- doesn't really matter but for me, classic wood and blued steel. All the above are attractive guns that will strongly hold their value on the used market.

Black plastic or camo painted stocks, parkerized or painted barrels? They will work, they are less expensive, I think they don't hold their value as much and as I don't shoot ducks I think a camo gun is about as useful as a camo flashlight. I WANT to find it, if I set it down in a pile of leaves, and I have seen guys spend 20 minutes looking for the gun they set down before they went deeper in to the woods to "unload". Classic wood and blue steel for me.

Turkey specialization- I had a specialized turkey gun and although I am a terrible turkey hunter, for me, shell selection and excellent turkey choke are more important than iron sights or a scope. They come in to you, or they don't.

Birds- Basically, do you have a dog? Does your hunting buddy? Without a dog, bird hunting is basically a walk in the fields or occasionally shooting stuff and not finding it anyways.

Skeet and Trap? The fellas are going to have $2000 and up over and unders. You show up with a pump and feel inadequate. One of those guys can pull out his own pump and do a clean run with it. It's the shooter, not the gun.

Barrel Length - remember the action on a pump gun is a few inches longer than on a double barrel, so a 30" pump has a longer slower smoother swing than and 30" over and under. 28" is a very good length, so is 26" if you think you will shoot rabbits more than ducks or pheasants. See Dog, above. Both shoot turkey just fine with proper choke and shells.

Simple Solution: find someone that sells shotguns and can help you with a "fitting". Explain your needs and tell them you want a Mossberg 500 Classic. You can't go wrong.

Tougher Solution: Keep your eyes open for used Remington 870 Wingmaster or Ithaca Model 37 with modified choke or removable choke tubes. Since bird season just ended, and political season as well (I hope), prices should be going down until next autumn.

[Pistoler0]

Thank you Stinkeypete,

I copied your whole post and pasted it to a pdf document to save in my computer.

That was really helpful.

[44 AMP]

Having gotten a Winchester model 12 almost 50 years ago, and the gun was made in the1920s, I'm not impressed with the Mossbergs.

They are a "budget" gun and as such do have utility, but I'd go for a used Rem 870 over a new mossberg.

Getting the stock fitted to you is nice, but you can manage a long lifetime of shooting without it. You just have to learn where the gun hits, relative to where you aim.

I have my Grandfather's Ithaca double, its stock was made to order to fit him. Its's not the right fit for me, but I can down any game I shoot at with it, providing I aim right. For that gun, and me, its bead below the bird, not on it and the gun WILL hit. My Model 12 fits me well and it seems like I almost don't need to aim to hit.

SO, whatever you do get, SHOOT IT and learn where its going to hit. Despite popular myth they are NOT "just point it" guns.

[FITASC]

There are only three guns for you to consider:

1. Remington 870 Wingmaster
2. Mossberg 500
3. Ithaca Model 37

You omitted the best pump -the Browning BPS

The 870 Wingmaster is a great shotgun (the Express not so much), bit Remington is bankrupt and gone, so your only best bet would be a used one which should be doable under $600 easily enough and you can also pick up extra barrels for a variety of other uses.
For all around, especially any type of bird hunting or clay shooting, go with a 28" barrel.

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Having gotten a Winchester model 12 almost 50 years ago, and the gun was made in the1920s,

Originally Posted by Stinkypete

Skeet and Trap? The fellas are going to have $2000 and up over and unders. You show up with a pump and feel inadequate. One of those guys can pull out his own pump and do a clean run with it. It's the shooter, not the gun.

My father would routinely run 100 straight with his father's 1936 Model-12, and with it was
a member of the championship Air Force Air Defense Command Skeet Team in the early 1950s.

It's my Model-12 now. Skeet, Trap, Dove, Duck, Geese, Quail, Pheasant, Rabbit, Hog, Deer...

If there's a drawback, it's that the Model-12 doesn't come with interchangeable chokes.
So look for one with a Cutts Compensator on it, with it's own set of interchangeable chokes.
... like my father's.


.

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I own and have owned many shotguns. One thing I learned is you really do not have to spend a lot of money. Unless you are rally into skeet and trap and even then I question some of the money spent.
The Mossberg flex is a good all around gun. I have the Pistol Grip, the tactical stock and the Field stock. I also have a a tactical barrel 18", a couple of Field barrels and a Slug barrel. You can buy a basic model and and to it as you go along. There are all kinds of configurations. Solid, dependable and will not break the bank.

[FITASC]

The money spent by serious clay target shooters are spent on guns designed to shoot a lot of targets, be heavy enough for recoil reduction, have a proper fit for perceived recoil elimination, are able to easily be rebuilt after hundreds of thousands of rounds and are also simple in their overall basic design.
Guns like Ljutic and Seitz for trap, Kreighoff, Kolar, Perazzi and top-tier Berettas for skeet and sporting cost what they do due to the highest quality manufacturing.

[jmr40]

Your budget is either too much, or not enough. You can get a very serviceable pump closer to $300. Nothing at all wrong with an 870 Express. I've had both Express and Wingmaster.

Other than costing 3X as much the Wingmaster does nothing the Express doesn't do just as well if not better. The shiny finish of the Wingmaster is a huge negative for waterfowl or turkey hunting. And if I were contemplating a $900 Wingmaster I'd pay a bit more for a semi-auto.


But $1000 isn't quite enough to get you into a top tier semi-auto. If I were looking for the perfect do it all shotgun regardless of price it would be the Benelli M-2 with a 26" barrel priced at around $1,300.

https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/bene...i-auto-shotgun

2nd choice, and probably the one that makes the most sense for your budget.

https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/bere...ynthetic-stock

I like a 24" or 26" barrel on an all around gun over the more common 28" barrels. The longer barrels are a better choice for the clay games and waterfowl hunting. The shorter barrels a better choice for upland game, turkey hunting or SD. A 26" barrel splits the difference pretty well and doesn't give up much to a 28" barrel and is more versatile IMO. The problem is finding one.

[bladesmith 1]

I have no idea why the Ithaca 37 is considered the elite of the three. Give me a 870 first, then a Mossberg 500 second, with the Ithaca third. Yes the Express will do anything a Wingmaster will do, but I prefer the Wingmaster. I'd look for a used one with screw in chokes, or as suggested one with a Mod choke if you find a good deal without the screw in chokes. First you have to educate your wife. One gun for each of your years on earth. I'm 74, don't have 74 guns, but not very far behind. Heck, the wife has three pistols, two rifles, and five shotguns. You just can't have enough guns.

[rc]

The 37 is made with milled parts, no stampings and is a more robust gun than the 870. It is an expensive gun to make. That's why Remington has been able to beat it over the years. The 37 is hard to single load but great for duck hunting when rain and muck is running down the outside of the receiver and not down into it.

[FITASC]

So is the BPS

[rc]

Yes, but the BPS isn't milled out as much so it tends to be heavier than an Ithaca and they use many STAMPED parts. BPS is an excellent variation of the Ithaca but it ain't no Ithaca killer.

[Pistoler0]

What is turning me off the BPS is that apparently it is a bi.... to disassemble and clean. I like the tang safety (like in my Savage rifles) and the ejection to the bottom. Both make it suitable for lefties (a few in the family), and those are great features. But the video I watched on assembly / disassembly... uuhg!

I am liking what I read about Mossberg, although granted it is not a premium firearm. I am between the 500 and the 535 (which can handle magnum shells but has less capacity).

I looked into the Ithaca (per previous posts) and it looks great but it is over my budget and I am not wild about the safety on the trigger guard, I am used to tang safeties.

[rc]

If budget is a concern and the Mossberg meets your criteria I believe both the 500 and 535 uses plastic trigger housings, plastic safety and aluminum receivers. Original 500s had metal safety and the military models metal trigger guards but for civilian HD I have not seen the trigger housing material break though I'm sure it's possible. The lock up is steel to steel on a barrel extensions so the design is durable. I believe the 500 has a 3 inch chamber and the 535 may be 3.5 inch chambered. There is also a slight variation of the magazine end caps and the way they attach to the barrels. I would go for the shorter cheaper 500 action for speed. 3 inch is plenty for most hunting and 2&3/4 gives plenty of punch for defense. The camo models are more common with the shorter vent rib barrels that's why I suggested those for a single barrel set up. I can understand the criticism over plastic stocks.

This guy has a nice looking combo he has put together with laminate stocks.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE


Here is a review of a 3 barrel factory combo.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E6CD5BF10850D7

I like the idea of a 20 inch vent rib barrel with screw in chokes for my versatile "DO IT ALL" shotgun. I have the 870 HD with IC choke and bead sight. I bought standard mag parts and a 26 inch field barrel to convert it for field use but it lives as a HD shotgun. It's a pain to switch out the barrels and the magazine parts. It's my only 870 and I would not buy another. I don't like the long reach for the carrier release and as an express it's a rough finished gun. If I was to sell that 870 I'd replace it with something like this.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/888199062

On a budget, considers an older used 500 from the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s. An early gun with wood stocks and screw in choke but no porting would be fairly cheap used. Maybe even $150 at a pawn shop with some character.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/887934434

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/888348276


An 18.5 inch barrel is usually around $100 but some are asking $250 on ebay these days.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-...rrels/p/p33853

I'm not sure when mossberg added twin action bars which are a must and at some point the safety was changed from metal to plastic. If you can find an older western field variant or mossberg branded gun with the twin action bars and metal safety that would be a great base to use for your hunting defense gun. Even a fixed choke full barrel would be fine for hunting turkey paired with a new 18.5 barrel for self defense. The new defense barrels will fit the older plain or vent rib guns. Mossbergs are cheap used because so many were made.

[jimbob86]

[QUOTE]Turkey specialization- I had a specialized turkey gun and although I am a terrible turkey hunter, for me, shell selection and excellent turkey choke are more important than iron sights or a scope. They come in to you, or they don't.[QUOTE]

Forget needing special turkey guns or loads- I hunt them successfully with a battered thirdhand Winchester 1200, wrapped in camo tape .... standard field loads of #6 or 7 1/2 will kill them if you shoot them in the head.

I've had more than 1/2 dozen shotguns go through the house over the years ..... I liked the Mossberg 500 I had, but shot it to death..... the WIN 1200 I run now won't take 3" shells, but I have no need of them ..... I really like my daughter's antique Remington model 17 ( the Ithaca 37's Daddy) ..... I had an 870 Express but gifted it to my dad ..... it felt clunky compared to my BIL's Wingmaster .... and did not point for me as well as the Mossberg ..... I think that if you are of an average build physically, just about any mass market shotgun will work well enough for you .....

[rc]

I agree with Jim about not needing sights, red dots or scopes and not needing anything fancy. Screw in chokes however or a couple of different barrels will make the gun way more versatile. When you shoot trap or birds at any distance you really want a full choke to be competitive. A short barrel with a full choke option will be ok for about everything but a short barrel with a cylinder choke only will have too big a spread and holes in the pattern all all but the shortest ranges. For HD with buck or bird shot, skeet shooting or up close quail the cylinder bore will work fine but it would be a poor choice for Turkey and any longer range shooting past 15 or 20 yards. The advantage to long shotgun barrels is they help with swing and follow through. They are not needed for decent velocity.

P.S. I would not let the BPS take down scare you away from a solid gun if you get one for a good price. They have been around since the late 70s and early ones have fixed chokes. A short barreled "upland" model would be fine for HD.