hollow point drilling??!?? - Page 2

Bezoar · August 3, 2013, 05:56 AM

Drilling may be fun, may be easy. Or it may be hard. It depends on how well you do it.

As far as hollowpoints and expansion from a handgun. Well if i can get a 22lr lead hollowpoint to expand in wood at 20 yards from a handgun, and its rated as "850 fps in a rifle' i think its more of a hole size/material issue then anything else.

Nyclad uses a soft pure lead coated in plasticy stuff. Same lead as your percusion revolver does. Yet look at how well it expands?

Rangefinder · August 3, 2013, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Yeah. Your nice photos show one that fragmented and I consider that a common cast HP bullet failure; the key word was 'realiably", not "sometimes" or "most of the time". Also suspect the collection of "perfect" mushrooms were saved individuals because they are perfect, not because they're typical. Kinda like "wallet" rifle groups that are saved because they're by no means typical accuracy!

You can call it whatever you like--I guess you've never seen the wound cavity created by a fragmenting bullet.
I'll see your latest stroke of babbling brilliance and raise you six. I'm out of magazines, so no wet-pack. What I do have is plenty of mud right now, especially on my pistol berm. Out of a 10-round magazine yesterday evening I found six. If you'd like to come dig through my berm, you can find the other four yourself--I'm pretty positive they'll look just like these. Now, we can go back and forth all day, and I'll test hp's till the sun goes down because that's what I generally do anyway when developing something--having my own shop and range has its benefits. OR, you can admit you might not know as much as you think. And if you think for one second that factory jacketed HP's always perform, always open, and always end up looking like the "wallet target" they put on the box, I'd say you're just the sucker they're looking for.

Bezoar · August 3, 2013, 12:31 PM

in my muzzle loader, xtps work as well as a cast hollow point. they both make BIG holes.

Mike / Tx · August 4, 2013, 04:13 AM

Quote:

wncchester wrote,
Yeah. Your nice photos show one that fragmented and I consider that a common cast HP bullet failure; the key word was 'realiably", not "sometimes" or "most of the time". Also suspect the collection of "perfect" mushrooms were saved individuals because they are perfect, not because they're typical. Kinda like "wallet" rifle groups that are saved because they're by no means typical accuracy!

Well to be honest they were saved due to being perfect, I will not deny that one ioata. However, I have plenty more of them which look almost identical as well, so they are certainly not flukes in any way, nor or they simply a dozen out of a hundred which looked good. I'm not even going to address the "wallet target" comment since that isn't part of the discussion. I will however if you want to start your own post on them though.

What you cannot seem to soak in is that some of us put in the effort and work to develope the alloy for the purpose, and the load. This isn't something that one just throws into a pot and comes up with, it takes plenty of trial and error. Most folks who cast simply don't pursue it as it isn't as easy as simply throwing some chunks of lead in the pot and pouring up solids.

If you would like to see more of them and how they were recoverd you can head over to the following link. It has more of them posted there as well as the trap in which I caught them in. Follow the link below and look for the sub folder named "Alloy Testing"
Cast Boolit Loading and Shooting

Also here is another link you might find informative as well, it somewhat goes into how I came up with the alloy I used in those pictured bullets,
Latest HP Alloy Blend

Oh and by the way, if you think that ANY factory HP rounds work equally well , as you put it, "the key word was 'realiably", not "sometimes" or "most of the time"." you really are living in some sort of fantasy world. I have been doing this sort of thing since back when I was a kid getting my pop to shoot stuff so we could get the bullets back. I have been loading my own going close to 45 years. While I cannot say that I am any sort of expert, I believe I have a handle on what constitutes a pass or fail, and I certainly wouldn't call any of the bullets made with that particular alloy a failure. They all look in one way form or fashion identical to what I have posted. Have I blown the noses off any, absolutely. I have driven the alloy beyond the limits of its ablity to not only hold together, but also to hold the rifling. As mentioned it is a balancing act, that most do not feel they want to work on.

As for the one posted by Rangefinder which DID break apart, While I do not feel it was perfect, it certainly wasn't a failure. IF anything, all that need be done is to identify the actual content of the alloy and bring the tin content up on par with the antimony. THis would give it MUCH better elasticity or maleability and allow the lead to flow instead of being a touch brittle and shatter. That said, it also depends on what it is being shot out of as well, one cannot expect a 9 bhn alloy to function as well as a 14 bhn in a magnum revolver at magnum velocities. There again, you have to match the alloy to the load. If his load is getting him 1300fps with no leading and good accuracy, he has done what he can do to achieve the goal with his alloy of choice. It certainly looks to be a 357, but I might be wrong. If it were a gas checked mold a softer alloy could easily be used with a softer alloy and still maintain the higher velocity. Picking a mold with a smaller HP pin would also go a long way in preserving the integrity of the bullet after impact. Again a case of matching things to get the desired result.

I don't think you have done much in the way of homework on this, if you would have, you might have found out that there are plenty of folks who are pouring HP's which work in a variety of calibers and velocities. If there weren't it would be MUCH easiler to get HP molds made up in a timely fashion by a couple of the best shops around. Truth is however they put up group buy after group buy, and with the overhead backlog of orders it takes up to and over a year sometimes to get the one your looking for. Certainly isn't the case for most RFN or solids that I have seen.

F. Guffey · August 4, 2013, 06:27 AM

Skizzums,

"kept and labels y sticker weights and my clip-on because the stickers seems to be a harder alloy cause they take forever to cook. does that mean they already have more tin?"

More tin? More tin reduces the melt point, Stick on weights could contain zinc.

Legend has it that 1 pound of zinc will contaminate 10,000 pounds of lead.

F. Guffey

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 07:54 AM

Re: Cast hollow-points, reliable expansion, observations.

I notice that there are pictures of cast hollow pointed bullets that have expanded well in various test media. Restating the obvious, flesh and bone targets (deer, pigs, aggressive humans, etc.), are not made of test media. In short, sometimes you hit flesh, sometimes you hit bone. Therefore, the "reliability" of the expansion of such bullets is not assured in practical use. I am neither for or against inasmuch as 99.9% of my shooting is at things that have neither flesh nor bone.

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 08:00 AM

Quote:

"kept and labels y sticker weights and my clip-on because the stickers seems to be a harder alloy cause they take forever to cook. does that mean they already have more tin?"

More tin? More tin reduces the melt point, Stick on weights could contain zinc.

It is current, conventional wisdom that stick-on wheel weights are nearly pure lead, do not contain zinc.
The reason that they will take longer to melt as they float on top of the melt, is that pure lead has a higher melting point than lead alloys that contain Tin.

skizzums · August 4, 2013, 02:09 PM

hey dahermit, you seem to be correct, not only being more mass to melt, they seem to always float on the top, ill heve to push them to the bottom or spoon melt on top of them to get them started. thanks. i am going to head to some radiator shops today and see if i cant get 10-20 pounds of the 50/50 lead/tin solder drippings. i went to harbor frieght last night and solder was like 2.79 for maybe 1/3 of a pound. i'm not cheap, but if i can get it free, i'll work on that first. thanks for most everyones opinions and advice.

skizzums · August 4, 2013, 02:11 PM

i will give everyone an update when i start pouring my first rounds. i really want to invest in a magnum type gun now, the bullets like a blast to reload.

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

i am going to head to some radiator shops today and see if i cant get 10-20 pounds of the 50/50 lead/tin solder drippings.

Good luck on the Tin acquisition. Tin has always been the more difficult metal to find for casters and has not gotten any more plentiful. One interesting source used to be in the days of the drug-store soda fountain...the pipes for the on-tap carbonated drinks were made from pure tin...but that was when soda fountains were popular and before plastic and stainless steel pipes were common. So, if soda fountains became popular again, that would not likely make for a source of Tin. The 50's and 60's customized cars called "Lead Sleds", used a technique of removing all the chrome and filling in any sharp edges by troweling on 40/60 solder, and then refinishing the car. The process was called, "Decking". However, with about the time Epoxy-based fillers ("Bondo") were invented, the process went out of style...no use looking for Tin there either. There is not a lot of domestic Tin production, most of it coming from South America and South East Asia, so it is always going to be expensive.

Rangefinder · August 4, 2013, 09:22 PM

My main source for tin is thrift stores and garage sales---in the form of pewter. If it's stamped pewter (NOT the aluminum Armatel stuff) then it's about 97% pure tin. Great stuff to have in excess. I melt it separately and pour it into 2 and 4 ounce coins, then it's easy to calculate into a melt for sweetening.

Mike / Tx · August 5, 2013, 08:52 AM

skizzums,

For help on pewter look over at this link,

Pewter-pictures-and-hallmarks

Also that is why I suggested the calculator to you. Once you start playing with it you will find that it doesn't take much tin to change the content of the alloy by a LOT.

Also when your ready to start adding in tin and pure, to your straight wheel weight alloy, you only need to make up a 5 or so pound batch at a time. This not only saves material, but if you don't like the resulting alloy you haven't wasted 30# in doing so.

Once you find the sweet spot that your looking for then multiply the weights you started out with and run them through the calculator again to verify that the larger amount is still where you want it. If so weigh it out and blend it, if not simply adjust what is needed to get there.

Most available solders are listed on there as well so you might be able to find something very similar to what you get. Pewter is also listed there as well. SO if you find it easily available, be sure to scarf up some of it as well. It will store easily once made into ingots. Like mentioned make up smaller 1-2oz sized ones of the tin/pewter so you can cut it easily to get just what you need.

skizzums · August 10, 2013, 11:36 AM

thanks guys, ive been lazy this week with the tin aquisition.

dahermit · August 11, 2013, 07:44 AM

Quote:

okay, i read about annealing cases, this doesn't seem like an important process for bullets that are not bottle-necked, am i right?

When I was shooting a lot of .44 Magnum with Keith-type cast bullets (Note the depth of the crimping groove on Keith-type bullets...if you are not supposed to use it, what is it there for?), I got sucked into using too much crimp. The conventional wisdom back then was to, use "plenty" of crimp to keep the bullets from backing out of the cases under the "tremendous recoil" of those fierce rounds. After many cycles of flaring and crimping the cases, the necks would begin to split, and I could save (keep from splitting), the rest of the lot by annealing the case mouths.
However, in latter years, I learned to take Keith's excesses with a grain of salt and observed that how the factory loads used very little crimp and the bullets would not back out of the cases. From then on, with just enough flare to allow the bullets entry, and about the same amount of crimp (very little), as on factory rounds, my need to anneal pistol cases all but disappeared.

Tedbytes · June 23, 2017, 03:42 PM

I have operated an ammunition reloading business for over 40 years and have learned years ago all the issues making hollowpoints. I own several h.p. Molds some of which being the Lyman 358156 g.c. Thompson design,and many others to include Lyman devastators. The Lyman mold is the easiest but more costly (gas checks are about $40/m) and time consuming method.You can vary the alloy hard to soft for different weights and rates of expansion.

More common for me,besides using up my supply of Alberts(Taurus) swaged h.p. Bullets and their old 38 spl hydra-shok soft swaged lead bullets it to make my own using a lathe and center drill.

A favorite of mine is the "OLD WEST" 2 cav brass bullet mold yielding in pure lead 247 grain Full wadcutter. This weight is a little heavy for one of my favorite carry guns, the Charter Arms Bulldog Pug. I use a 1/4" hardened tool steel center drill in the tail stock using a black marker on the shaft so as to control cutting depth. A stop collar is useless on a center drill as the shaved lead crowds the back end of the center drill at the juncture of the collar. I use a Q-tip lubed with case lube or STP heavy motor honey. This lube works the best as it holds and does not run. The shaved lead easily peels back creating "Christmas Tree tinsel" type lead,recyclable. My bullets in almost pure soft lead weigh about 225 grains when drilled. I then size and lube using Tamrac or Lyman alox soft stick lube,the best lube with no leading on soft alloy. I have also tumbled the sized and alox lubed bullet using Lee's Liquid Alox (LLA) for added protection. This 225 grain projectile easily reaches 800 fps at safe below 13,000 p.s.i. Pressure in this small 5 shot stainless gun. If the bullet won't disable you,the alox will slowly poison you. My opine!

Mike / Tx · June 24, 2017, 08:01 AM

Hi and welcome to the forum. This is an older thread but still has a lot of relevance to some who are just starting out.

As previously mentioned, while not doing it as a business I have been doing the loading for a while. In this time I have learned plenty of things that work and that don't. Years ago I tried the "drilled" version of a HP and while I can say I got some expansion I cannot say it was controlled by anything. That said I wasn't quite as prepared for it at the time as I was when I started pouring them for specific uses.

The fellow who started this now had several videos posted and has things going good now.

Hope to see more from you especially in casting.

T. O'Heir · June 24, 2017, 12:22 PM

Four year old post about doing something that doesn't actually work. A cast bullet will expand all by itself upon impact. A lowly .38 WC goes entirely flat to about .60 cal.

hdwhit · June 24, 2017, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Skizzums wrote:
hollow point drilling??!??

Yes, you can drill a hollow point into the nose of a bullet and it MAY result in it expanding a little more than if you had not drilled the hole (the hole providing space for material to move into as the bullet "mushrooms") but it is unlikely to be as effective as purpose-made hollow pointed bullets.

ALSO, care should be taken using such tools. Using one to turn a soft point jacketed bullet into a jacketed hollow point is likely to be safe enough and not impact accuracy (assuming the hole truly is drilled dead center).

BUT bullets that do not have a solid base, such as FMJ bullets, should not be drilled as there is a risk of shooting the lead core out of the jacket leaving the jacket behind in the barrel where the next shot could result in catastrophic failure from an obstructed barrel.

Carriertxv · June 24, 2017, 01:24 PM

Back in the 60's being a 10 year old farm kid we got the idea of drilling round nose 22 bullets. Not sure how grand they worked but to a couple of 10 year olds they sure seemed to to the job on gophers.

Reloader270 · June 24, 2017, 02:08 PM

I have these Foster Hollow Pointer and they work excellent.

Tsquared · June 24, 2017, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Four year old post about doing something that doesn't actually work. A cast bullet will expand all by itself upon impact. A lowly .38 WC goes entirely flat to about .60 cal.

Can't agree more.

Back when I was a teenager in the '70's, my dad and uncle set up a jig to drill out SWC and WC to see if they could get better expansion. They went back to a standard SWC as it seemed to be a bit more accurate and a .45 would stretch out to .68

RC20 · June 24, 2017, 07:08 PM

As noted above, this has been going on for a long time.

Nothing new about it.

And no issue with having a good time playing with it.

It takes some very good engineers and testing setup to get a good reliable HP that works.

It took a long time and a lot of research money to get SD ammo to work across the range of guns.

August 5, 2013, 08:52 AM	#37
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,102	skizzums, For help on pewter look over at this link, Pewter-pictures-and-hallmarks Also that is why I suggested the calculator to you. Once you start playing with it you will find that it doesn't take much tin to change the content of the alloy by a LOT. Also when your ready to start adding in tin and pure, to your straight wheel weight alloy, you only need to make up a 5 or so pound batch at a time. This not only saves material, but if you don't like the resulting alloy you haven't wasted 30# in doing so. Once you find the sweet spot that your looking for then multiply the weights you started out with and run them through the calculator again to verify that the larger amount is still where you want it. If so weigh it out and blend it, if not simply adjust what is needed to get there. Most available solders are listed on there as well so you might be able to find something very similar to what you get. Pewter is also listed there as well. SO if you find it easily available, be sure to scarf up some of it as well. It will store easily once made into ingots. Like mentioned make up smaller 1-2oz sized ones of the tin/pewter so you can cut it easily to get just what you need. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX Last edited by Mike / Tx; August 5, 2013 at 09:01 AM.

June 23, 2017, 03:42 PM	#40
Tedbytes Junior Member Join Date: August 5, 2014 Posts: 8	Hollowpointing lead handgun bullets I have operated an ammunition reloading business for over 40 years and have learned years ago all the issues making hollowpoints. I own several h.p. Molds some of which being the Lyman 358156 g.c. Thompson design,and many others to include Lyman devastators. The Lyman mold is the easiest but more costly (gas checks are about $40/m) and time consuming method.You can vary the alloy hard to soft for different weights and rates of expansion. More common for me,besides using up my supply of Alberts(Taurus) swaged h.p. Bullets and their old 38 spl hydra-shok soft swaged lead bullets it to make my own using a lathe and center drill. A favorite of mine is the "OLD WEST" 2 cav brass bullet mold yielding in pure lead 247 grain Full wadcutter. This weight is a little heavy for one of my favorite carry guns, the Charter Arms Bulldog Pug. I use a 1/4" hardened tool steel center drill in the tail stock using a black marker on the shaft so as to control cutting depth. A stop collar is useless on a center drill as the shaved lead crowds the back end of the center drill at the juncture of the collar. I use a Q-tip lubed with case lube or STP heavy motor honey. This lube works the best as it holds and does not run. The shaved lead easily peels back creating "Christmas Tree tinsel" type lead,recyclable. My bullets in almost pure soft lead weigh about 225 grains when drilled. I then size and lube using Tamrac or Lyman alox soft stick lube,the best lube with no leading on soft alloy. I have also tumbled the sized and alox lubed bullet using Lee's Liquid Alox (LLA) for added protection. This 225 grain projectile easily reaches 800 fps at safe below 13,000 p.s.i. Pressure in this small 5 shot stainless gun. If the bullet won't disable you,the alox will slowly poison you. My opine!

June 24, 2017, 08:01 AM	#41
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,102	Hi and welcome to the forum. This is an older thread but still has a lot of relevance to some who are just starting out. As previously mentioned, while not doing it as a business I have been doing the loading for a while. In this time I have learned plenty of things that work and that don't. Years ago I tried the "drilled" version of a HP and while I can say I got some expansion I cannot say it was controlled by anything. That said I wasn't quite as prepared for it at the time as I was when I started pouring them for specific uses. The fellow who started this now had several videos posted and has things going good now. Hope to see more from you especially in casting. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

August 3, 2013, 05:56 AM	#26
Bezoar Junior member Join Date: October 19, 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 578	Drilling may be fun, may be easy. Or it may be hard. It depends on how well you do it. As far as hollowpoints and expansion from a handgun. Well if i can get a 22lr lead hollowpoint to expand in wood at 20 yards from a handgun, and its rated as "850 fps in a rifle' i think its more of a hole size/material issue then anything else. Nyclad uses a soft pure lead coated in plasticy stuff. Same lead as your percusion revolver does. Yet look at how well it expands?

August 3, 2013, 12:31 PM	#28
Bezoar Junior member Join Date: October 19, 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 578	in my muzzle loader, xtps work as well as a cast hollow point. they both make BIG holes.

August 4, 2013, 06:27 AM	#30
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Skizzums, "kept and labels y sticker weights and my clip-on because the stickers seems to be a harder alloy cause they take forever to cook. does that mean they already have more tin?" More tin? More tin reduces the melt point, Stick on weights could contain zinc. Legend has it that 1 pound of zinc will contaminate 10,000 pounds of lead. F. Guffey

August 4, 2013, 07:54 AM	#31
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Re: Cast hollow-points, reliable expansion, observations. I notice that there are pictures of cast hollow pointed bullets that have expanded well in various test media. Restating the obvious, flesh and bone targets (deer, pigs, aggressive humans, etc.), are not made of test media. In short, sometimes you hit flesh, sometimes you hit bone. Therefore, the "reliability" of the expansion of such bullets is not assured in practical use. I am neither for or against inasmuch as 99.9% of my shooting is at things that have neither flesh nor bone.

August 4, 2013, 02:09 PM	#33
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	hey dahermit, you seem to be correct, not only being more mass to melt, they seem to always float on the top, ill heve to push them to the bottom or spoon melt on top of them to get them started. thanks. i am going to head to some radiator shops today and see if i cant get 10-20 pounds of the 50/50 lead/tin solder drippings. i went to harbor frieght last night and solder was like 2.79 for maybe 1/3 of a pound. i'm not cheap, but if i can get it free, i'll work on that first. thanks for most everyones opinions and advice.

August 4, 2013, 02:11 PM	#34
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	i will give everyone an update when i start pouring my first rounds. i really want to invest in a magnum type gun now, the bullets like a blast to reload.

August 4, 2013, 09:22 PM	#36
Rangefinder Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Posts: 2,017	My main source for tin is thrift stores and garage sales---in the form of pewter. If it's stamped pewter (NOT the aluminum Armatel stuff) then it's about 97% pure tin. Great stuff to have in excess. I melt it separately and pour it into 2 and 4 ounce coins, then it's easy to calculate into a melt for sweetening.

August 10, 2013, 11:36 AM	#38
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	thanks guys, ive been lazy this week with the tin aquisition.

June 24, 2017, 12:22 PM	#42
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Four year old post about doing something that doesn't actually work. A cast bullet will expand all by itself upon impact. A lowly .38 WC goes entirely flat to about .60 cal.

June 24, 2017, 01:24 PM	#44
Carriertxv Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2013 Posts: 268	Back in the 60's being a 10 year old farm kid we got the idea of drilling round nose 22 bullets. Not sure how grand they worked but to a couple of 10 year olds they sure seemed to to the job on gophers.

June 24, 2017, 02:08 PM	#45
Reloader270 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2015 Location: South Africa Posts: 138	I have these Foster Hollow Pointer and they work excellent.

June 24, 2017, 07:08 PM	#47
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	As noted above, this has been going on for a long time. Nothing new about it. And no issue with having a good time playing with it. It takes some very good engineers and testing setup to get a good reliable HP that works. It took a long time and a lot of research money to get SD ammo to work across the range of guns.