The ole "Tire Fire Testing"

ks_wayward_son · March 16, 2011, 02:56 AM

I was wondering how many of you actually use the method of securing your C&R rifles to a tire and using string to stand safely away in order to discharge the gun...and thereby ensuring it is "safe" to fire from then on? Is this truly reliable, because if it is, I'd rather do that and save some dough on having to buy all the necessary components for head-space checking and/or taking it to a smith for safety verification.

**Mike Irwin** · March 16, 2011, 08:18 AM

Me.

Either a tire or a tree.

I've done it with several rifles.

In order to do it properly, though, you need a good caliper to do some careful measurements on the fired case to see if anything is unusual.

tater134 · March 16, 2011, 02:41 PM

Most of the time I just shoot my rifles and carefully inspect the cases afterwards but I did do the tire test recently for the first time. I bought a Zulu shotgun which is a musket converted to a breech loading rifle then converted to a 12ga shotgun. Due to the age (between 1840-1860s) and condition I decided to fire it remotely to make sure there werent any issues.

ks_wayward_son · March 17, 2011, 02:50 AM

what type of measurements do you need? where can I get the technical data for comparison and what would be a "good set" of calipers...thanks.

DrLaw · March 17, 2011, 07:14 AM

So I bungee-corded my restored 1800's shotgun to a shooting bench at the range, covered the barrel with towels, and ran a string to the rear of the building from the trigger (It's kind of a lean-to building on our range). I stood next to one of the former telephone poles that make up the rear supports of the building, which was conveniently next to the window and pulled.

It worked.

Gun did not fall off. It did not explode after several shots, and I was a happy camper.

The Doc is out now.

**Mike Irwin** · March 17, 2011, 08:11 AM

You can get technical data for cartridge dimensions from most any reloading manual or even online.

A good set of calipers can be had for not a lot of money from a place like Home Depot, or even mail order from Harbor Freight.

A fired case will have dimensional changes over an unfired factory case. What you're looking for is anything that is grossly excessive, such as the shoulder moving forward or the case head expanding more than .005 or so.

cougar gt-e · March 17, 2011, 05:03 PM

Quote:

A good set of calipers can be had for not a lot of money from a place like Home Depot, or even mail order from Harbor Freight.

Sorry, but there is an instinctive shudder when I read that. I'm an old tyme bigot or something, but a "good" caliper should say "Starrett" and not "Cen-Tech". And yes, I actually do have both. The HF one does work, but for some reason it's the one that gets loaned out

and it's not the one that gets used for a critical measurement!

Cheapshooter · March 17, 2011, 05:19 PM

I've used the "Goodyear headspaace test" in one form or another for all my milsurps. Haven't had one blow up, or have a tight bolt issue yet. No fired cases have shown any signs of problems.
I think the military surplus rifle stretching to cause a headspace problem is way overblown.
If you are really concerned, get a headspace gauge and do it right.

Pahoo · March 17, 2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Either a tire or a tree.

WOW, I figured others had used a tire but I thought I was the only one that ever used a tree. Not many times but do remember an Arisaka and old hammered DB shotgun. The tire worked better for me. Glad those days are behind me .....

Be Safe !!!

Old Grump · March 17, 2011, 06:28 PM

If you are afraid to shoulder the gun with that round that round does not belong in your gun. I have this thing about blowing up perfectly good firearms for no good reason other than you don't trust the ammunition but want to shoot it anyway.

sliverflinger · March 17, 2011, 09:08 PM

It's not trying to destroy a good weapon. It's trying to find out if the great deal you just got really is, or if he just knew more about it than you do. I have grown rather fond of this tattered hide over the years.

**Mike Irwin** · March 18, 2011, 08:19 AM

My cheap-ass Chinese digital from Harbor Freight shows great fidelity with the measurements I get from my Grandfather's Starrett dial caliper.

These days, manufacturing these things isn't rocket science to get something that provides the kind of accuracy a hobbyist needs.

If I were a gunsmith, or if I were doing serious manufacturing, I would invest roughly 10 to 20 times the amount of money and get a Starrett.

But for this? Harbor Freight Chinese is more than good enough.

**Mike Irwin** · March 18, 2011, 08:20 AM

With most old rifles, especially surplus military rifles, there's less of a chance of blowing the gun up vs having a case or primer failure that dumps hot gas and fragments back into your face.

deadcoyote · March 18, 2011, 02:25 PM

I did this once with a shotgun we found in a barn. It worked fine.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 19, 2011, 11:57 PM

Couple or three years ago a friend from Europe was visiting. While in the U.S. he wanted to get a good electronic caliper for home gunsmithing. He had decided he needed a Lyman. (Yes, I know it's not a Starrett, but Lyman is a well-respected name in reloading circles.) So we got him one.

A few months later, in deference to my progressing presbyopia, I decided to treat myself to a digital as an upgrade to my two dial calipers (actually three, but one measures only to hundredths, so I don't count that one). I settled for a Chinese Cen-Tech from Harbor Freight.

It's the same exact instrument as the Lyman -- that cost three times as much.

It also registers well compared to the two dial calipers. I trust it for home gunsmithing and reloading.

F. Guffey · March 21, 2011, 09:12 AM

As to measuring after firing, that sounds like busy work, I measure before, I measure the chamber first, not much is dumber than chambering a round then pulling the trigger to see what will happen, I check head space on rifles I do not have gages for three different ways without a gage.

I have test fired rifles for strength, I have never used a tree or a tire, I use a heavy industrial quilt/blanket/moving pad, I fold it 4 times and lay it over the rifle and fire with an improvised trigger puller.

And for worn out barrels and test firing, I cover the receiver with a white piece of cloth/towel, if the case does not seal the chamber because of low pressure the escaping gas darkens the towel, the M38 Japanese rifle has smoke holes in the top of the receiver, after testing the one thing you do not want to see is black soot looking stains on the white cloth..

As to using a heavy pad, when removing worn bearings from long heavy shafts in a press it is impossible to have all the fixtures, so I have wrapped the bearing with a heavy pad and busted/shattered the outside race with a sledge hammer, nothing escaped the pad, and 'no' I have never waited for a crowd to form first. and it does little good to ask for a remote bench at the range, the first person coming to the range out of curiosity takes the bench next to me after passing 10 empty benches.

And the first thing they say is "I don't do it that way"

F. Guffey

**Mike Irwin** · March 21, 2011, 09:26 AM

Measure the fired round after, measure the chamber before, it's all busy work.

Most people likely possess the means to accurately measure the fired cartridge more thoroughly and precisely than they do the interior of a chamber.

F. Guffey · March 23, 2011, 01:05 PM

"As to measuring after firing, that sounds like busy work, I measure before, I measure the chamber first, not much is dumber than chambering a round then pulling the trigger to see what will happen"

"Measure the fired round after, measure the chamber before, it's all busy work"

I want to know what effect the chamber will have on the case when fired, I want to offset the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired by off setting head space of the chamber with the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder when sized..

Measuring the case length from the head of the case to it's shoulder after firing without a clue as to the length of the case before firing will give the reloader a value of nothing, that information is not even nice to know.

It is not me that determines the limit of skills and knowledge a reloader can accomplish or obtain. I recommend if one is going to measure the length of a case from the head of the case to it's shoulder do it correctly.

Practice does not make perfect.

F. Guffey

**Mike Irwin** · March 23, 2011, 01:25 PM

"Measuring the case length from the head of the case to it's shoulder after firing without a clue as to the length of the case before firing will give the reloader a value of nothing, that information is not even nice to know."

Maybe I'm unsual in this manner, but I've never gone to the range with but a single cartridge.

An unfired, factory loaded cartridge provides all the data points that you need to determine if you have anything unusual going on with the chamber.

Or, any comprehensive reloading manual.

Or a trip to the SAAMI website's section on cartridge dimensions.

Using a caliper to measure a fired case, I was easily able to determine that my Type 38 Arisaka has an overlength chamber AND an out of round chamber near the case head (later confirmed with a chamber cast).

Neither dimensional variation was egregious, though, so I was able to fireform the rest of my cases to move the shoulder forward enough that I had no problems with it.

Had I not determined that my chamber was over length and just reloaded the cases in standard format, pushing the shoulder back to close to factor specifications, I likely would have lost most to head separations in very short order.

Not something a 15-year-old wants to really contemplate when staring at a box of $30 Norma ammo.

F. Guffey · March 30, 2011, 09:33 PM

Mike, "to the range with a single cartridge"? I do not go to the range with a single rifle, more times than not I go with 10 rifles, with 5 of them Mausers in 8mm57 or M 1917s chambered in 308 Norma mag., 303 British 30/06 etc..

I determine the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired, I do not fire first then determine the effect the chamber had on the case.

I start reloading by using cases that is too long to chamber, I do not waste my time going to the range and fire form, I form first then fire, after firing formed cases I get once fired cases.

As to the model 38 and case head separation, there is a technique/method that can be used to determine if the potential of risk of case head separation is possible but when discussing these matters the first response is 'Hatcher said". not easy to get past that on the Internet, but in the real world it just takes a few minutes plus mileage.

Again, I was told I was wrong, a man built 5 rifles using Remington 03A3 rifles, he made the reamer and built 5 magnificent rifles chamber in 7mm, when he attempted to fire form brass, 4 of the first 10 cases ripped, split and or separated. I ask the builder of the rifles to tell me everything he knew about the 03 type Springfield, when he got to "and that is it" I told him I could have told him what would happen before he left the shop, I told him if he had a problem at the range I could have fixed the problem long enough for him to form h8is cases, I told him I would have formed the cases before I left for the the shop, he then informed me he did not form first but did use another method.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · March 30, 2011, 09:41 PM

"Or a trip to the SAAMI website's section on cartridge dimensions"

Again I have an Eddystone M1917 with .016 thousands head space, SAMMY has nothing to do with that rifle, I form cases for that rifle that fit the first time I fire it and no even if I fired minimum length cases in that rifle the case does not stretch in front of the web, that is something Hatcher could not get a grip on because he assumed the head of the case would seperate with .080thousands head space?

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · March 30, 2011, 09:46 PM

Mike, I do not shoot gages, I shoot ammo that fits the chamber, If I size cases to fit SAMMIES chambers I wound up with cases for a rifle chamber I do not have, there are not many of us, in the real world of reaming chambers and sizing cases to fit I only know of one other.

F. Guffey

March 16, 2011, 02:56 AM	#1
ks_wayward_son Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2007 Posts: 332	The ole "Tire Fire Testing" I was wondering how many of you actually use the method of securing your C&R rifles to a tire and using string to stand safely away in order to discharge the gun...and thereby ensuring it is "safe" to fire from then on? Is this truly reliable, because if it is, I'd rather do that and save some dough on having to buy all the necessary components for head-space checking and/or taking it to a smith for safety verification.

March 16, 2011, 08:18 AM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,428	Me. Either a tire or a tree. I've done it with several rifles. In order to do it properly, though, you need a good caliper to do some careful measurements on the fired case to see if anything is unusual. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 17, 2011, 07:14 AM	#5
DrLaw Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Wild Western Illinois Posts: 559	Didn't have a tire So I bungee-corded my restored 1800's shotgun to a shooting bench at the range, covered the barrel with towels, and ran a string to the rear of the building from the trigger (It's kind of a lean-to building on our range). I stood next to one of the former telephone poles that make up the rear supports of the building, which was conveniently next to the window and pulled. It worked. Gun did not fall off. It did not explode after several shots, and I was a happy camper. The Doc is out now.

March 17, 2011, 08:11 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,428	You can get technical data for cartridge dimensions from most any reloading manual or even online. A good set of calipers can be had for not a lot of money from a place like Home Depot, or even mail order from Harbor Freight. A fired case will have dimensional changes over an unfired factory case. What you're looking for is anything that is grossly excessive, such as the shoulder moving forward or the case head expanding more than .005 or so. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 17, 2011, 06:28 PM	#10
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	If you are afraid to shoulder the gun with that round that round does not belong in your gun. I have this thing about blowing up perfectly good firearms for no good reason other than you don't trust the ammunition but want to shoot it anyway. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

March 16, 2011, 02:41 PM	#3
tater134 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: NE,PA Posts: 390	Most of the time I just shoot my rifles and carefully inspect the cases afterwards but I did do the tire test recently for the first time. I bought a Zulu shotgun which is a musket converted to a breech loading rifle then converted to a 12ga shotgun. Due to the age (between 1840-1860s) and condition I decided to fire it remotely to make sure there werent any issues.

March 17, 2011, 02:50 AM	#4
ks_wayward_son Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2007 Posts: 332	what type of measurements do you need? where can I get the technical data for comparison and what would be a "good set" of calipers...thanks.

March 17, 2011, 05:19 PM	#8
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	I've used the "Goodyear headspaace test" in one form or another for all my milsurps. Haven't had one blow up, or have a tight bolt issue yet. No fired cases have shown any signs of problems. I think the military surplus rifle stretching to cause a headspace problem is way overblown. If you are really concerned, get a headspace gauge and do it right.

March 17, 2011, 09:08 PM	#11
sliverflinger Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Posts: 18	Tire fire test It's not trying to destroy a good weapon. It's trying to find out if the great deal you just got really is, or if he just knew more about it than you do. I have grown rather fond of this tattered hide over the years.

March 18, 2011, 08:19 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,428	My cheap-ass Chinese digital from Harbor Freight shows great fidelity with the measurements I get from my Grandfather's Starrett dial caliper. These days, manufacturing these things isn't rocket science to get something that provides the kind of accuracy a hobbyist needs. If I were a gunsmith, or if I were doing serious manufacturing, I would invest roughly 10 to 20 times the amount of money and get a Starrett. But for this? Harbor Freight Chinese is more than good enough. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 18, 2011, 08:20 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,428	With most old rifles, especially surplus military rifles, there's less of a chance of blowing the gun up vs having a case or primer failure that dumps hot gas and fragments back into your face. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 18, 2011, 02:25 PM	#14
deadcoyote Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2009 Location: northern CA Posts: 676	I did this once with a shotgun we found in a barn. It worked fine.

March 19, 2011, 11:57 PM	#15
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,537	Couple or three years ago a friend from Europe was visiting. While in the U.S. he wanted to get a good electronic caliper for home gunsmithing. He had decided he needed a Lyman. (Yes, I know it's not a Starrett, but Lyman is a well-respected name in reloading circles.) So we got him one. A few months later, in deference to my progressing presbyopia, I decided to treat myself to a digital as an upgrade to my two dial calipers (actually three, but one measures only to hundredths, so I don't count that one). I settled for a Chinese Cen-Tech from Harbor Freight. It's the same exact instrument as the Lyman -- that cost three times as much. It also registers well compared to the two dial calipers. I trust it for home gunsmithing and reloading.

March 21, 2011, 09:12 AM	#16
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	As to measuring after firing, that sounds like busy work, I measure before, I measure the chamber first, not much is dumber than chambering a round then pulling the trigger to see what will happen, I check head space on rifles I do not have gages for three different ways without a gage. I have test fired rifles for strength, I have never used a tree or a tire, I use a heavy industrial quilt/blanket/moving pad, I fold it 4 times and lay it over the rifle and fire with an improvised trigger puller. And for worn out barrels and test firing, I cover the receiver with a white piece of cloth/towel, if the case does not seal the chamber because of low pressure the escaping gas darkens the towel, the M38 Japanese rifle has smoke holes in the top of the receiver, after testing the one thing you do not want to see is black soot looking stains on the white cloth.. As to using a heavy pad, when removing worn bearings from long heavy shafts in a press it is impossible to have all the fixtures, so I have wrapped the bearing with a heavy pad and busted/shattered the outside race with a sledge hammer, nothing escaped the pad, and 'no' I have never waited for a crowd to form first. and it does little good to ask for a remote bench at the range, the first person coming to the range out of curiosity takes the bench next to me after passing 10 empty benches. And the first thing they say is "I don't do it that way" F. Guffey

March 21, 2011, 09:26 AM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,428	Measure the fired round after, measure the chamber before, it's all busy work. Most people likely possess the means to accurately measure the fired cartridge more thoroughly and precisely than they do the interior of a chamber. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 23, 2011, 01:05 PM	#18
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"As to measuring after firing, that sounds like busy work, I measure before, I measure the chamber first, not much is dumber than chambering a round then pulling the trigger to see what will happen" "Measure the fired round after, measure the chamber before, it's all busy work" I want to know what effect the chamber will have on the case when fired, I want to offset the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired by off setting head space of the chamber with the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder when sized.. Measuring the case length from the head of the case to it's shoulder after firing without a clue as to the length of the case before firing will give the reloader a value of nothing, that information is not even nice to know. It is not me that determines the limit of skills and knowledge a reloader can accomplish or obtain. I recommend if one is going to measure the length of a case from the head of the case to it's shoulder do it correctly. Practice does not make perfect. F. Guffey

March 23, 2011, 01:25 PM	#19
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,428	"Measuring the case length from the head of the case to it's shoulder after firing without a clue as to the length of the case before firing will give the reloader a value of nothing, that information is not even nice to know." Maybe I'm unsual in this manner, but I've never gone to the range with but a single cartridge. An unfired, factory loaded cartridge provides all the data points that you need to determine if you have anything unusual going on with the chamber. Or, any comprehensive reloading manual. Or a trip to the SAAMI website's section on cartridge dimensions. Using a caliper to measure a fired case, I was easily able to determine that my Type 38 Arisaka has an overlength chamber AND an out of round chamber near the case head (later confirmed with a chamber cast). Neither dimensional variation was egregious, though, so I was able to fireform the rest of my cases to move the shoulder forward enough that I had no problems with it. Had I not determined that my chamber was over length and just reloaded the cases in standard format, pushing the shoulder back to close to factor specifications, I likely would have lost most to head separations in very short order. Not something a 15-year-old wants to really contemplate when staring at a box of $30 Norma ammo. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 30, 2011, 09:33 PM	#20
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Mike, "to the range with a single cartridge"? I do not go to the range with a single rifle, more times than not I go with 10 rifles, with 5 of them Mausers in 8mm57 or M 1917s chambered in 308 Norma mag., 303 British 30/06 etc.. I determine the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired, I do not fire first then determine the effect the chamber had on the case. I start reloading by using cases that is too long to chamber, I do not waste my time going to the range and fire form, I form first then fire, after firing formed cases I get once fired cases. As to the model 38 and case head separation, there is a technique/method that can be used to determine if the potential of risk of case head separation is possible but when discussing these matters the first response is 'Hatcher said". not easy to get past that on the Internet, but in the real world it just takes a few minutes plus mileage. Again, I was told I was wrong, a man built 5 rifles using Remington 03A3 rifles, he made the reamer and built 5 magnificent rifles chamber in 7mm, when he attempted to fire form brass, 4 of the first 10 cases ripped, split and or separated. I ask the builder of the rifles to tell me everything he knew about the 03 type Springfield, when he got to "and that is it" I told him I could have told him what would happen before he left the shop, I told him if he had a problem at the range I could have fixed the problem long enough for him to form h8is cases, I told him I would have formed the cases before I left for the the shop, he then informed me he did not form first but did use another method. F. Guffey

March 30, 2011, 09:41 PM	#21
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"Or a trip to the SAAMI website's section on cartridge dimensions" Again I have an Eddystone M1917 with .016 thousands head space, SAMMY has nothing to do with that rifle, I form cases for that rifle that fit the first time I fire it and no even if I fired minimum length cases in that rifle the case does not stretch in front of the web, that is something Hatcher could not get a grip on because he assumed the head of the case would seperate with .080thousands head space? F. Guffey

March 30, 2011, 09:46 PM	#22
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Mike, I do not shoot gages, I shoot ammo that fits the chamber, If I size cases to fit SAMMIES chambers I wound up with cases for a rifle chamber I do not have, there are not many of us, in the real world of reaming chambers and sizing cases to fit I only know of one other. F. Guffey