12 vs. 20 ga for self defense

bbqbob51 · August 26, 2006, 09:33 PM

I got into a conversation with a buddy of mine about the ultimate self defence weapon. He feels that a 12 ga pump action with buck shot is the best, "Just work the action and most would be attackers will flee. If not, one shot will blast them into oblivion and if any others are around they will be out of there" he stated. I told him that I was considering a 20 ga so my wife would be able to shoot the thing. I figured that 20 ga with buck shot would ruin anyone's day an would knock down any sized man. Of course Dudley totally disagreed telling me that pump action shotguns absorb recoil better than single/double barreled guns and that my wife would have no problem with them.
My experience with both pump and single shot guns in 12 ga still left me with a bruised shoulder if I did some serious shooting. My problem is I never did comparison shooting side by side. I do know that the 20 ga never left me with a bruised shoulder.
My contention is that the 12 ga is unnecessary and the 20 ga would work just fine. Of course I have never had to try to defend myself in real life with either. Any opinions?

22-rimfire · August 26, 2006, 10:10 PM

I think the 20ga is just fine for your wife in a home defense scenario. Guns are lighter than 12ga for the most part; hence easier for her to wield. I would not necessarily limit your ammo choice to buckshot. Consider No. 4 shot and larger. Plenty of penetration and more pellets. You can mix the loads.

Police use 12 ga. Must be a reason. (More ammo choices and more pellets.) Also, you don't usually go to the range and practice with buckshot very often. Few like the recoil. But in an emergency, you most likely will never even notice the recoil.

Bill DeShivs · August 26, 2006, 10:41 PM

Either is fine. Pumps do not "absorb" recoil any more than a fixed breech gun, as the breech is fixed when firing. Automatics may kick a little less, as a small portion of the energy is used to work the action.
Bill

bbqbob51 · August 26, 2006, 11:14 PM

Maybe he was thinking of automatics, we had drank a few beers when this conversation came up.

DOCSpanky · August 26, 2006, 11:52 PM

There are usually two trains of thought in this debate.

#1. 12 guage has the best ammo selection and availability, from many low recoil loads and a wider variety of readily available upgrades that can be made to the gun.

#2. A 20 guage has very nearly the same felt recoil as most 12 guages of similar design for a simple reason. The gun is typically a pound or two lighter and therefore transfers more of the recoil into your shoulder versus having the higher weight of the 12 guage gun absorb more of the felt recoil.

But I favor the 20 guage for a simple reason. And your wife may or may not be in this same boat. I am a man of small stature. 5"4" with a very broad chest and an overall unusual body type (Built like a whisky keg), that makes the actual handling of a fullsize 12 guage shotgun somewhat more difficult. I have a hard time reaching the rear of the forward hand grip on many standard size shotguns. I find myself grabbing the back end, and worrying that in a crisis with sweaty palms, I may loose my grip and not be able to work the action! After trying many many 12 guages in both standard and youth designs, I settled on a 20 guage automatic for a simple reason. It fit me and I am totally comfortable with it. Secondly, I have NEVER had a misfire, the action has continually proven itself to be ULTRA reliable, and I do not have to worry about my hand coming off the front grip. Finally, I could afford it, I either had to settle for a youth 12 guage which was a little too small, or go out and buy an adjustable stock on top of the purchase price of the gun itself. I found an off the shelf 20 guage that fit perfectly, and with no modifications. Done deal.

And as for me and my house, we sit around with the shotgun loaded with 5 rounds of #6, backed up by a Glock 23 with 14 rounds of 180 gr. Hydrashocks. I figure if your still coming for me after that, then you deserve it!

But I digress, and all I can say is that if you are buying this gun with the intent of your wife using it to defend herself in a crisis, then the most important factor is fit and functionality. The gun should fit her, and she should be able to work all controls easily. If you are married to Geena Davis, then you will probably need a full size gun, but if your wife is like me or my wife, then a giving her a full size shotgun in 12 guage might as well equate to asking her to hand carry a howitzer!

FWIW

DOC

P.S. Worst bunch of meat on a slab I ever saw was 4 thugs who broke into an old dudes house, he had a 20 guage pump and killed four of them, and the fifth is pooping in a bag for the rest of his life!

banditt007 · August 27, 2006, 02:31 AM

Can you get #1 buck in a 20 gauge? anything larger?

DOCSpanky · August 27, 2006, 04:42 AM

I got some 0 and some 00 loads, they are just harder to find.

Lee Lapin · August 27, 2006, 08:29 AM

Terminal effect of a 20 ga. is completely adequate for HD at typical ranges encountered indoors. If the big issue is recoil, however, you might find that a typical 20 ga. pumpgun is apt to kick harder than a comparably sized 12 ga. simply because the gun itself is lighter. There is a far wider selection of ammo available for the 12 bore- including reduced recoil loads- that might well tilt the balance in pumpguns in favor of the larger bore. Experimentation is in order to determine what works best for your particular situation.

If you want reduced recoil in a 20 ga. you would be better advised to experiment with gas operated guns. Of course gas guns are more expensive at the outset than manually operated repeaters, but a good 20 ga. 1100 that is properly fitted to the shooter is hard to beat for the recoil sensitive.

My wife, all 5'4" of her, tried an 870 Youth Model in 20 ga. once and went back to her 12 ga. most ricky tick. House guns here are 12 ga. 870s with 18" barrels, full length field type forearms and 12.5" LOP stocks. She has no trouble handling one of these guns and shoots them well.

lpl/nc

bbqbob51 · August 27, 2006, 09:25 AM

She's 5'2" and all of 120 lbs. Don't want to knock her over!

cloudcroft · August 27, 2006, 12:43 PM

Then what you do, either with a 12 or a 20 -- since a HD gun is by definition a gun AT HOME and therefore, carrying weight is not an issue -- add some lead birdshot to the stock hole under the buttpad and/or the forearm...that'll reduce recoil just fine. A lightweight shotgun is for carrying, a heavier shotgun is for shooting.

Besides, in all the excitement of shooting intruders, recoil issues will be the LAST thing on her (or anyone's) mind and she won't even notice the recoil of ANY gun -- 12 or 20 -- I suspect.

Or, you can shoot it from the hip or just under the arm (wing-it)...another way of avoiding recoil to the shoulder (and yes, you really CAN hit something shooting it that way, same as with dual pistol-grip "shorty" shotguns...not hard to do at all).

Or, get one of those "famous" recoil-reducers for shoulder-stocked guns...don't know if they work, don't have one because the other solutions I listed work for me.

Good luck,

-- John D.

Jack O'Conner · August 27, 2006, 01:25 PM

Bolt action shotguns never really became popular despite a good design and very good workmanship. These shotguns are often sold quite cheap on the used-but-not-abused rack. I've seen Mossberg and Stevens models in 20 gauge recently selling within the $100. to $125. range.

One can certainly learn how to master this type of shotgun with a little practise. You might consider having the barrel professionally cut down to 18.5 inches and new bead soldered in place. For no other reason, the shotgun would be handier.
Jack

LSU12ga · August 27, 2006, 01:55 PM

I always felt the idea of racking a shotgun to scare someone off was kind of cowboyish and silly.

But i do remeber reading that 20ga loads carry the same amount of recoil as 2 44mag loads.

bbqbob51 · August 31, 2006, 09:48 PM

I think I have settled on the Stoeger Coachgun in 20 ga. The double barrel configuration appeals to me because of the ease of operation. In a panic situation I think you don't need to mess with too many options. These Coachguns seem nice and easy to maneuver as they are quite short and the price is good. Has anyone owned these Stoegers and what do they think of them?

DonR101395 · August 31, 2006, 09:53 PM

I've got one in 20ga. It's a good gun, I just wish now I would have bought it in 12ga. IMO The recoil isn't much different after shooting both, but I like it none the less.

cloudcroft · August 31, 2006, 11:36 PM

There are no two shots gotten off faster than from a double-barrel shotgun, but if you don't solve the problem with those two shots, you're in BIG trouble.

Consequently, I do not recommend a double-barrel shotgun for SD use.

If you DO get it for that purpose, good luck.

-- John D.

August 27, 2006, 01:25 PM	#11
Jack O'Conner Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Manatee County, Florida Posts: 1,976	Bolt action shotguns never really became popular despite a good design and very good workmanship. These shotguns are often sold quite cheap on the used-but-not-abused rack. I've seen Mossberg and Stevens models in 20 gauge recently selling within the $100. to $125. range. One can certainly learn how to master this type of shotgun with a little practise. You might consider having the barrel professionally cut down to 18.5 inches and new bead soldered in place. For no other reason, the shotgun would be handier. Jack __________________ Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.

August 26, 2006, 09:33 PM	#1
bbqbob51 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 775	12 vs. 20 ga for self defense I got into a conversation with a buddy of mine about the ultimate self defence weapon. He feels that a 12 ga pump action with buck shot is the best, "Just work the action and most would be attackers will flee. If not, one shot will blast them into oblivion and if any others are around they will be out of there" he stated. I told him that I was considering a 20 ga so my wife would be able to shoot the thing. I figured that 20 ga with buck shot would ruin anyone's day an would knock down any sized man. Of course Dudley totally disagreed telling me that pump action shotguns absorb recoil better than single/double barreled guns and that my wife would have no problem with them. My experience with both pump and single shot guns in 12 ga still left me with a bruised shoulder if I did some serious shooting. My problem is I never did comparison shooting side by side. I do know that the 20 ga never left me with a bruised shoulder. My contention is that the 12 ga is unnecessary and the 20 ga would work just fine. Of course I have never had to try to defend myself in real life with either. Any opinions?

August 26, 2006, 10:10 PM	#2
22-rimfire Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 5,323	I think the 20ga is just fine for your wife in a home defense scenario. Guns are lighter than 12ga for the most part; hence easier for her to wield. I would not necessarily limit your ammo choice to buckshot. Consider No. 4 shot and larger. Plenty of penetration and more pellets. You can mix the loads. Police use 12 ga. Must be a reason. (More ammo choices and more pellets.) Also, you don't usually go to the range and practice with buckshot very often. Few like the recoil. But in an emergency, you most likely will never even notice the recoil.

August 26, 2006, 10:41 PM	#3
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,997	Either is fine. Pumps do not "absorb" recoil any more than a fixed breech gun, as the breech is fixed when firing. Automatics may kick a little less, as a small portion of the energy is used to work the action. Bill

August 26, 2006, 11:14 PM	#4
bbqbob51 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 775	Maybe he was thinking of automatics, we had drank a few beers when this conversation came up.

August 26, 2006, 11:52 PM	#5
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	There are usually two trains of thought in this debate. #1. 12 guage has the best ammo selection and availability, from many low recoil loads and a wider variety of readily available upgrades that can be made to the gun. #2. A 20 guage has very nearly the same felt recoil as most 12 guages of similar design for a simple reason. The gun is typically a pound or two lighter and therefore transfers more of the recoil into your shoulder versus having the higher weight of the 12 guage gun absorb more of the felt recoil. But I favor the 20 guage for a simple reason. And your wife may or may not be in this same boat. I am a man of small stature. 5"4" with a very broad chest and an overall unusual body type (Built like a whisky keg), that makes the actual handling of a fullsize 12 guage shotgun somewhat more difficult. I have a hard time reaching the rear of the forward hand grip on many standard size shotguns. I find myself grabbing the back end, and worrying that in a crisis with sweaty palms, I may loose my grip and not be able to work the action! After trying many many 12 guages in both standard and youth designs, I settled on a 20 guage automatic for a simple reason. It fit me and I am totally comfortable with it. Secondly, I have NEVER had a misfire, the action has continually proven itself to be ULTRA reliable, and I do not have to worry about my hand coming off the front grip. Finally, I could afford it, I either had to settle for a youth 12 guage which was a little too small, or go out and buy an adjustable stock on top of the purchase price of the gun itself. I found an off the shelf 20 guage that fit perfectly, and with no modifications. Done deal. And as for me and my house, we sit around with the shotgun loaded with 5 rounds of #6, backed up by a Glock 23 with 14 rounds of 180 gr. Hydrashocks. I figure if your still coming for me after that, then you deserve it! But I digress, and all I can say is that if you are buying this gun with the intent of your wife using it to defend herself in a crisis, then the most important factor is fit and functionality. The gun should fit her, and she should be able to work all controls easily. If you are married to Geena Davis, then you will probably need a full size gun, but if your wife is like me or my wife, then a giving her a full size shotgun in 12 guage might as well equate to asking her to hand carry a howitzer! FWIW DOC P.S. Worst bunch of meat on a slab I ever saw was 4 thugs who broke into an old dudes house, he had a 20 guage pump and killed four of them, and the fifth is pooping in a bag for the rest of his life!

August 27, 2006, 02:31 AM	#6
banditt007 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 694	Can you get #1 buck in a 20 gauge? anything larger?

August 27, 2006, 04:42 AM	#7
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	I got some 0 and some 00 loads, they are just harder to find.

August 27, 2006, 08:29 AM	#8
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Terminal effect of a 20 ga. is completely adequate for HD at typical ranges encountered indoors. If the big issue is recoil, however, you might find that a typical 20 ga. pumpgun is apt to kick harder than a comparably sized 12 ga. simply because the gun itself is lighter. There is a far wider selection of ammo available for the 12 bore- including reduced recoil loads- that might well tilt the balance in pumpguns in favor of the larger bore. Experimentation is in order to determine what works best for your particular situation. If you want reduced recoil in a 20 ga. you would be better advised to experiment with gas operated guns. Of course gas guns are more expensive at the outset than manually operated repeaters, but a good 20 ga. 1100 that is properly fitted to the shooter is hard to beat for the recoil sensitive. My wife, all 5'4" of her, tried an 870 Youth Model in 20 ga. once and went back to her 12 ga. most ricky tick. House guns here are 12 ga. 870s with 18" barrels, full length field type forearms and 12.5" LOP stocks. She has no trouble handling one of these guns and shoots them well. lpl/nc

August 27, 2006, 09:25 AM	#9
bbqbob51 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 775	She's 5'2" and all of 120 lbs. Don't want to knock her over!

August 27, 2006, 12:43 PM	#10
cloudcroft Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 565	Then what you do, either with a 12 or a 20 -- since a HD gun is by definition a gun AT HOME and therefore, carrying weight is not an issue -- add some lead birdshot to the stock hole under the buttpad and/or the forearm...that'll reduce recoil just fine. A lightweight shotgun is for carrying, a heavier shotgun is for shooting. Besides, in all the excitement of shooting intruders, recoil issues will be the LAST thing on her (or anyone's) mind and she won't even notice the recoil of ANY gun -- 12 or 20 -- I suspect. Or, you can shoot it from the hip or just under the arm (wing-it)...another way of avoiding recoil to the shoulder (and yes, you really CAN hit something shooting it that way, same as with dual pistol-grip "shorty" shotguns...not hard to do at all). Or, get one of those "famous" recoil-reducers for shoulder-stocked guns...don't know if they work, don't have one because the other solutions I listed work for me. Good luck, -- John D.

August 27, 2006, 01:55 PM	#12
LSU12ga Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2006 Posts: 407	I always felt the idea of racking a shotgun to scare someone off was kind of cowboyish and silly. But i do remeber reading that 20ga loads carry the same amount of recoil as 2 44mag loads.

August 31, 2006, 09:48 PM	#13
bbqbob51 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 775	I think I have settled on the Stoeger Coachgun in 20 ga. The double barrel configuration appeals to me because of the ease of operation. In a panic situation I think you don't need to mess with too many options. These Coachguns seem nice and easy to maneuver as they are quite short and the price is good. Has anyone owned these Stoegers and what do they think of them?

August 31, 2006, 09:53 PM	#14
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	I've got one in 20ga. It's a good gun, I just wish now I would have bought it in 12ga. IMO The recoil isn't much different after shooting both, but I like it none the less.

August 31, 2006, 11:36 PM	#15
cloudcroft Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 565	There are no two shots gotten off faster than from a double-barrel shotgun, but if you don't solve the problem with those two shots, you're in BIG trouble. Consequently, I do not recommend a double-barrel shotgun for SD use. If you DO get it for that purpose, good luck. -- John D.