September 21, 2005, 05:14 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
Clays vs Tightgroup
I started loading with Bullseye then moved to Tightgroup. At the last IDPA match I was talking to a few shooters who were using Clays. Their reasoning was that they were able to make the powerfactor (165,000 fps) with less powder and therefore less recoil. Any ideas if this sounds correct?
|
September 21, 2005, 05:55 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,429
|
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/burnratechart.php
It's based more on burn rate. The faster the burn rate, the faster the gun comes back down. Check first that the load is within common sense pressure zones. If you use good brass in 9mm or .45, and the gun's chamber is tight enough, you have a little 'common sense' area just above SAAMI. I'm leery to load .40 to SAAMI specs in a tight gun even with slow powder. Eet skeeres me. The theory is that with heavy bullets and fast powders, the pressure curve is more steep, and drops faster, too. Too heavy and too fast is harder on your gun. I guess I just scare easily. ***EDIT*** I suppose I should add that I believe more in the gun's ergos and how it likes your hand. I've shot guns that are basically identical and using the same ammo, had MUCH more or less 'felt' recoil (Subjective.) than the other clone. Grips, grip angle, bore axis, hand strength, familiarity, spring tuning, training, etc. make more difference. There's also something to be said for the slow push of a .45 or the flip,flip of a 10mm.
__________________
I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.) |
September 21, 2005, 06:28 AM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
Quote:
BTW I'm shooting a 45acp 1911 and my loads are done using Federal 150 primers and 230gr lead round nose bullets with mixed casings. |
|
September 21, 2005, 07:42 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2002
Posts: 2,019
|
Shooter, 3.7-3.8 grains of Clays should make 165 pf with your bullet and is a fantastic load. As soft shooting as 45 acp gets. All my 45 acp USPSA loads are built with Clays and there are LOTS of guys using it. VV powders have some popularity too but Clays seems to be the powder of choice in 45.
|
September 21, 2005, 09:54 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 22, 2002
Location: In The Hardwoods
Posts: 1,188
|
Hey........Old Shooter which bullet you shooting?
|
September 21, 2005, 10:14 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 955
|
faster powder = more snap. slower powder = more of a push. i love Titegroup
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag Smith M&P 40 |
September 21, 2005, 01:18 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 401
|
I've only just purchased my first can of TG but have gone through about three cans of Clays so do take these observations as being relatively new to the powders.
I chrono'ed off some Clays 3.8 loads / 230 lead RN's last night. Pretty consistent velocities between 820 and 847 fps. That load makes power very easily. Recoil is definitely more snappy out of my 625 than compared to a load of Unique. I also shot a bunch of .38 specs with Clays and TG from my GP100 6". The difference in felt recoil was very noticable. TG was considerably softer shooting. 3.5 gr. TG chrono'ed at 950 fps and (kid you not) felt like I was shooting a .22 LR! Super soft recoil - if it were not for the chrono I would have seriously thought I was shooting at 700 fps! TG has a much softer recoil than Clays from my minimal experience so far. TG accuracy has been good with groups of 1" at 45 feet in the .38 spec. Honestly I can't wait to try it in my .45! |
September 21, 2005, 04:58 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2002
Posts: 2,019
|
That push sensation is exactly what you don't want in a competition load. The push takes too long to recover from, the snap comes back down a lot faster and on target for the next shot.
230 with regular Clays is FAR softer than any factory hardball load I have ever found. |
September 21, 2005, 05:37 PM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
Quote:
|
|
September 21, 2005, 05:44 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
rnovi
Apples to Apples, Grain for grain Tightgroup may be softer but to make major it takes me 4.4 grains. If Clays can make major with ~3.6 or .8 then it should be a softer recoil. I have no reference to Clays but 3.8 grains of Tightgroup only factors in the 150's for me. (factor = speed x bullet weight / 1,000) |
September 21, 2005, 05:52 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 401
|
Shooter,
What firearm are you using? Revo or Auto? Barrel Length? |
September 21, 2005, 06:20 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
5" S&W 1911DK modified with a Briley barrel and matching eliptical busihng
We also chronyed the Tightgroup through a 5" stock Para with little difference. |
September 21, 2005, 09:12 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2004
Location: NV
Posts: 215
|
Old Shooter I too have a SW1911DK, Nice Piece.
I'm not a competition shooter, but when posting a powder question HSMITH replyed with that load, 3.7-3.8 grains of Clays W/230RN. And man is he right. It's an accurate load and keeps your gun clean. Thanks again HSMITH. |
September 21, 2005, 10:48 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 1, 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 1,752
|
2 of the best powders for .45 ACP. Takes 3.8 of Clays and 4.3 of Titegroup to make around 168-170pf in Kimber 5".
|
September 22, 2005, 07:33 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 22, 2002
Location: In The Hardwoods
Posts: 1,188
|
Old Shooter................You did good.
|
September 22, 2005, 02:54 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
Thanks guys I think that I'll have to try the Clays - I'll pick some up over the weekend if I can and report back next week with a personal experience!!!!!
|
September 22, 2005, 03:23 PM | #17 |
Member
Join Date: May 11, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 29
|
I use 4.2 grains of Clays with a 230 LRN bullet. Great accuracy with a satisfying pop. Shoot them thru my Kimber 5" Gold Match and my S & W 625jm.
|
September 23, 2005, 07:29 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
joepa
What factor are you getting with that formula? |
September 23, 2005, 02:27 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2004
Location: Prosser WA
Posts: 103
|
I switched from TG to Clays behind 200gr LSWC's in my 45ACP for IPSC shooting, getting 170pf from 4.1 grains. I haven't shot the TG and the Clays side by side, but the gun seems to feel better with the Clays. The main reason that I switched was just to try something different, but I soon found out that the barrel doesn't lead nearly as bad as TG, there is much less powder residue left on the exterior of the gun, and my casings are no longer carboned up on one side. I like TG and use it for 9mm and 38 special, but I'm sticking with Clays in the 45 for now.
|
September 27, 2005, 10:21 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC
Posts: 281
|
As I listed in another thread, I just loaded about a dozen rounds of Clays with 3.6gr under my 230gr LRN. The round made IDPA major at 169K and is a nice soft load.
I'll try a few hundred rounds before committing to the powder but the initial test looks positive. |
December 4, 2005, 03:28 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 19, 2005
Location: nky
Posts: 263
|
thats a deal
old shooter...thats quite a deal .......1000 for $30.00.....i wish we had such suppliers here.
|
December 4, 2005, 07:39 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan
Posts: 353
|
My Clays loads for making major are: 4.3 w/200 LSWC, and 3.5 230LRN. The SWC is shot from a 1911 and the LRN from a 625.
|
December 6, 2005, 03:18 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2001
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 203
|
For caz223 re: "perceived recoil"
You say:
" I suppose I should add that I believe more in the gun's ergos and how it likes your hand. I've shot guns that are basically identical and using the same ammo, had MUCH more or less 'felt' recoil (Subjective.) than the other clone" *********************** Ive been told by my "Smith" ( and had it demonstrated to me with guns that HE had built), that the "perceived recoil" of identical ( parts wise) 1911s .... using identical ammunition, will vary greatly; according to the "fit" of the slide to the frame. A hand fashioned piece properly fitted by a good Smith, will have substantially less "perceived recoil" than a gun built with the same parts but not "fitted" as well. My "Smith" is building a custom 1911 [ BACUS Custom ] for me, as we speak. [ Or at least he will be ...if he ever gets the frame he ordered from Caspian ] |
|
|