Are Switchblades like fornication?

[jimsbowies]

In August of 1958, our Congress enacted the law that became Title 15, Chapter 29....the infamous "switchblade" prohibition. While historians may disagree on the "why" of this, at least some suggest that it was in reaction to the hysteria over juvenile gangs and the public perception that switchblades were the weapons of choice of these punks and that a prohibition would make the streets safe....

Looking back now, don't we WISH that the street punks only had switchblades instead of the assault weapons they choose today? Of course, today they have the assault weapons AND the switchblades. I can't recall that I've heard of a drive-by "cutting" recently....

Okay buster, what's your point here? Okay, okay, I'm getting there.

While Congress outlawed the manufacture, sale and interstate transport of "switchblade" knives, and outlawed "ballistic" knives....another matter altogether, most states did not.

So now in this new century, switchblades abound! They are readily available in stores, gun and knife shows, through collectors, on the internet, from custom makers, etc. One can purchase one as easily as a new pair of shoes!

And, interestingly enough, most state laws don't address the legality of switchblades and if they do, in most cases it revolves around the statute dealing with "aggravating" circumstances or some such aspect of the criminal code.

So, in most states, it is perfectly legal to possess or carry a switchblade....heck, even California makes it legal under their statutes to possess and carry a switchblade so long as the blade is less than 2" in length!


So! It is perfectly legal in California to own, possess, carry and I guess...manufacturer a switchblade but its against the US Code to do so....?????????? Confused? So am I!

So that's why our switchblade laws are like fornication laws....on the books but ignored in most cases?

Some states provide for out and out prohibitions, some never address them in statute, some have exceptions for "collectors" of curios, some allow transportation intrastate if the "switchblade" is wrapped and secured......and yada, yada, yada....

Anyone else have an opinion on this idiocy?

[FrankK]

My wonderful state (NJ) has made it clear in their statutes (2C:39-9d) that the sale of switchblades is prohibited, and is a 4th degree crime..........

".... Any person who manufactures, causes to be manufactured, transports, ships, sells or disposes of any weapon, including gravity knives, switchblade knives, ballistic knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, billies, blackjacks, metal knuckles, sandclubs, slingshots, cesti or similar leather bands studded with metal filings, or in the case of firearms if he is not licensed or registered to do so as provided in chapter 58, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree."

[jimsbowies]

So in NJ, if one were to sell (without license as I read it) a custom Randall knife via e-bay, he'd be guilty of a Class 4 offense if the Randall was a "dagger".....oh ****!

And, which rocket-scientist in NJ gets to define and describe a "dagger" or "stilleto"? Oh joy, I can barely wait to see what fits in that definition up there! :barf:

Guess that goes to show ya that we are incredibly burdened with non-sensible laws passed by idiots who claim to represent us all.

I've spent my entire adult life (most anyhow) working as a lobbyist at state and federal levels.....I've always just grinned when some incident gains the media's attention and notoriety....next thing you know, some grandstanding legislator comes along and introduces a bill to "outlaw" some practice....

Just as after the Oklahoma City bombing, I'll bet there were a thousand bills introduced to outlaw "weapons of mass destruction".....I'm just betting you that some idiot will introduce one outlawing the use of airliners as weapons of "mass destruction". Want to call that bet?

:barf:

[Gusgus]

Are you putting forth the premise, that if all the States had outlawed switch blades, that they wouldn't be used by criminals today? If so, your premise is false. If I misunderstood you, please ignore the following.

Recreational drugs have been outlawed in this country for decades, yet their use flourishes. When probation was tried, the criminal and not so criminal element flooded this nation with illegal booze. Minors are not permitted to purchase firearms, yet many street gangs are heavily armed. We where told that Brady would keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But as all can see, that was nothing but a lie.

Banning or outlawing a product or tool, only affects those who care to abide by such law. A tool in of it's self is not evil. In the hands of a responsible citizen, a switchblade is no more likely to murder, then a Swiss Army Knife. In the hands of a responsible citizen, a select fire MP-5 is no more likely to create carnage, than a single shot .22. The heart of man is the real evil that must be dealt with. A tactical nuke, in the hands of a good man, will not be used for evil, yet a house hold screw driver, in the hands of a depraved man, can take the life of innocents.

BTW, you made mention of street punks with "assault weapons". An assault weapon by definition is a select fire combat rifle/carbine. I personally don't see too many street punks walking around with fully auto M-16A3s, M-4s, AK-47s, G3s, etc.

[Gusgus]

OK, I see by your second post, that I may have mis-understood what you where trying to portray. My deepest apologies.

As far as Jersey goes, this state is but a joke. You asked "which rocket-scientist in NJ gets to define and describe a dagger or stiletto". Simple, the prosecutor, or activist judge your case goes before. If it's a dagger or stiletto in their eyes, you haven't a chance.

Not only are Jersey laws oppressive, but in most cases, not well defined. This many times leaves the interpretation to the judge. Recently, due to the loose definition of "destructive device", some prosecutors have been charging the mere possession of a simple fire cracker, with possession of a destructive device. In their eyes, a fire cracker deems the same punishment, as say, a pipe bomb.

But of course, due to all these oppressive laws, Jersey boasts some of the safest cities in the union. Right up there with Washington DC, Chicago, Detroit, LA, and NYC.

[FrankK]

Sell it? Uh oh, you mean you have one in your possession in NJ?? That's also a 4th degree crime if you can't provide a lawful explaination and purpose for it!

(2C:39-3e)......

"Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sandclub, slingshot, cestus or similar leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood, ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree."

[FrankK]

Gusgus hit the nail on the head. The way these laws are written they are subject to interpretation....i.e. "explainable lawful purpose".

[jimsbowies]

I guess if I moved to NJ, I'd be a criminal big-time....would possession of more than one dagger or stilletto increase the offense from 4th to "4th times the number I possess"? Ruh-ro....I guess I'd be convicted of a class 1000 or more offense....

IDIOTS....FOOLS......Like I'm about to use one of my high-dollar custom knives to go out and commit a convenience store robbery....

Sorry if I was not clear in my ironic and perhaps unclear remarks in the first posting...I was just trying to point out the idiocy we face in our laws and rules.......

And for any of you sneeky NJ "cops" who might be reading this...hoping to catch me if I come your way......good frigging luck!

[HiPowerAR]

Is there an actual description of what a "switchblade" is under that Federal Law? Is it a blade that shoots straight out? One that flings out from the side with the bladed edge???

I've seen side-folders that are spring-loaded that open with the blunt-edge first... are these illegal?

[jimsbowies]

Take a look and I'd guess that the knife you describe as opening from the side is still a switchblade.

The others you refer to are the "ballistic" knives.....a device that actually propelled the knife blade like a bullet.

Search USC, About Database, Download USC, Classification Tables, Codification



-CITE-

15 USC Sec. 1241 01/02/01

-EXPCITE-

TITLE 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE

CHAPTER 29 - MANUFACTURE, TRANSPORTATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF

SWITCHBLADE KNIVES

-HEAD-

Sec. 1241. Definitions

-STATUTE-

As used in this chapter -

(a) The term ''interstate commerce'' means commerce between any

State, Territory, possession of the United States, or the District

of Columbia, and any place outside thereof.

(b) The term ''switchblade knife'' means any knife having a blade

which opens automatically -

(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the

handle of the knife, or

(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.

-SOURCE-

(Pub. L. 85-623, Sec. 1, Aug. 12, 1958, 72 Stat. 562.)

-REFTEXT-

REFERENCES IN TEXT

This chapter, referred to in text, was in the original ''this

Act'', meaning Pub. L. 85-623, which enacted sections 1241 to 1244

of this title and amended section 1716 of Title 18, Crimes and

Criminal Procedure.

-MISC2-

EFFECTIVE DATE

Section 6 of Pub. L. 85-623 provided that: ''This Act (enacting

this chapter and amending section 1716 of Title 18, Crimes and

Criminal Procedure) shall take effect on the sixtieth day after the

date of its enactment (Aug. 12, 1958).''

SHORT TITLE OF 1986 AMENDMENT

Pub. L. 99-570, title X, Sec. 10001, Oct. 27, 1986, 100 Stat.

3207-166, provided that: ''This title (enacting section 1245 of

this title, amending section 1716 of Title 18, Crimes and Criminal

Procedure, and enacting provisions set out as a note under section

1245 of this title) may be cited as the 'Ballistic Knife

Prohibition Act of 1986'.''

[HiPowerAR]

Well, I guess by "manual" Benchmade side folder is still a switchblade because I can open it with inertia if I really try.

Gotta love overly ambiguous legal definitions.

[jimsbowies]

That some states have gone even further in defining "switchblades" with some including in that such things as a "balisong" design and some have attempted to define "one-handed" knives (which most are nowadays) as falling under that definition.

Like you, I've got "manual" knives that I can flick open with the "pop" of my wrist....so, I guess technically, some ******* might want to accuse me of carrying an illegal blade.....

Oh well, after September 11, you just wait.....soon your kitchen knife will be outlawed....we're just gonna have to re-learn how to chew meats like Cromagnon man and cut with shards of rock...

[ctdonath]

$25,000 fine and 5 years in federal prison.

Do not take that lightly.

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We *want* them broken. You'd better get it straight That it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
- Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged , Ch. III, "White Blackmail" (Dr. Ferris)

[FrankK]

To HiPowerAR.... NJ defines a switchblade as follows:

"Switchblade knife" means any knife or similar device which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife.
(2C:39-1p)


To jimbowies.... If you can open your pocket knife with the "pop of your wrist", it would be considered a gravity knife here and also be illegal.

"Gravity knife" means any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force. (2C:39-1h)

[Oleg Volk]

In other words, almost every knife.

Makes me wonder about being anywhere in proximity to NJ...and also "which other laws on the books don't I know...and would be used against me?"

Hmmmm...

[fix]

stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sandclub, slingshot...

SLINGSHOT???

Am I the only one that caught that???

[C.R.Sam]

fix....nope

[Monkeyleg]

A couple of years back we had a guy here in Milwaukee get arrested for having a "switchblade" while on a city bus. It was your garden-variety boxcutter, and he was a carpet installer on his way home from work.

[ATTICUS]

In Ohio, you can have one, but you can't use it....so maybe it is a little like fornification.

[illuminatus99]

I don't own a switchblade, it's a one-handed letter opener. that's what it's used for so that's what it is. anyone who claims it is carried as a deadly weapon can refer to my firearm.

[jimsbowies]

Fellows, here is the exact text of e-mail I sent to well-known attorney who is an expert on the federal code and is admitted to practice before the US Supreme Court, US Court of Appeals and the highest military courts in the nation:

MY QUESTION: Help me to understand here. These knives, the possession, manufacture and
transport of....are illegal...subject to $5000 fines, etc...prison sentences, are
ubiquitous....easily available....promoted by large well-known manufacturers
and custom knife makers in catalogs, websites, knife and gun shows, in most
every gun or knife store in the nation....but they're ILLEGAL?

Well, duh!

HIS ANSWER: Yes, that appears to be the story . . .

Attached is the entire statute entitled "Manufacture, Transportation, or
Distribution of Switchblade Knives." A close reading of it seems to imply
that the knowing introduction or manufacture for introduction or
transportation or distribution of switchblade knives in interstate commerce
is a federal criminal offense. There are a few exceptions - the most
notable of which is that a common carrier or contract carrier is exempt from
the criminal provisions of this act. So, the act targets the maker and the
individual who transports such knives across state lines. I didn't find
anything that indicated that this act was rescinded or held
unconstitutional.

So, in answer to your question, well, duh?

SO! Switchblade knives ARE like laws against fornication...

[Master Blaster]

Assinine laws.

In Delaware you can get a CCW carry permit after you jump through flaming hoops.

Problem is that it is illegal for a permit holder to carry within 1000 feet of the edge of the property, rented, owned, or used by any school or youth recreation facility. This is a state law. I challenge anyone to find me a spot in northern DE that is not within 1000 feet of the property of some school church or recreation field.

So the state issues carry permits knowing there is technically no where that you can legally carry outside your home.

If they enforced this law they would have to arrest every CCW holder in the state.

I discussed this with my CCW instructor (state approved) and he agreed that technically he is breaking the law every minute of every day, this is a class G felony.

Explain how this makes any sense??

[madmike]

The fed law outlaws imnportation and interstate commerce ONLY, not possession.
Parts may be legally imported.

28 states (at last count) prohibit possession, so NO, most states DON'T allow them.

Ohio does NOT allow possession. "Possession" includes "in your house," not just on the person.

The ONLY state to have a State Supreme Court hearing on it was Oregon, who said in effect, "technology improves, a knife is a knife, this ban is ridiculous and unconstitutional."

22 states ban gravity knives. This DID include the Buck 110 in many states, and especially if the cop sees you flip it open. Some states consider bali-songs ("butterfly knives" to the ignorant) to be gravity knives, but not all.

If you're a cop in Indiana, I hate to tell you this, but the law DOES apply to cops. If you aren't military on duty, you can't have one. So Greenwood PD, send that crate you issued back to Snitch and Wussy, you are breaking state law.

Several years ago in NC, a crooked cop who couldn't bust a guy for a concealed handgun (it was "partially concealed" under a newspaper on the passenger seat, but visible enough to be seen.) got a crooked judge to agree that a Buck 110 was "substantially similar" to a switchblade because it locked open.

California used to ban Spydercos as switchblades.

And it goes on for pages.

The 1958 Switchblade Act was started by a "mothers' forum" to congress to reduce availability to the "weapons of choice" of street gangs. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

To show the utter ignorance and stupidity of the SCOTUS, an actual finding was "these knives can be opened quickly, possibly as fast as 5 seconds."

They didn't even time it, nor did they compare it to a standard folding knife.

But it got knives off the street.

IT IS legal to buy a switchblade overseas and bring it home for personal use. But the customs people will take it away from you until you take them to court to get it. Only cost a few thousand.

And until recently, there was no exemption for dealers. You had to have a contract on hand to sell to a gov't agency, BEFORE you could get possession...hard to have dealer's samples, hey?

Knife laws are worse than gun laws.

[Navy joe]

Are switchblades like fornication???

Hmmm?

Yep, the trouble don't start until you whip it out!

[madmike]

Sometimes the trouble ENDS when you whip one out, Joe.

On the other hand, we wouldn't have cam/torsion/lever/etc (ILLEGAL IN MI!!) openers if it weren't for those silly laws.

There's no law they can pass that we can't think our way around. Note the new HKs being built in the US.


now, if someone would just invent (for the hell of it) a carbine that takes multiple, legal, 10 shot magazines...