Calling all Experts - Page 4

mykeal · August 3, 2012, 11:48 AM

No, no, no. Geez.

Rolling is for tobacco, not black powder.

Loading is for black powder.

Try not to get them mixed up. Putting tobacco in your black powder isn't a serious problem, but the other way around could be, well, exciting.

Doc Hoy · August 3, 2012, 12:28 PM

Mykeal DOES have a sense of humor!

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

Chowmif16 · August 3, 2012, 12:47 PM

Doc Hoy,
Sorry, I've missed the post for a few days. The grease cookie I use is not a felt wad soaked in lube, it is pure lube. I use a over powder card to protect the powder from the lube. It's a cardboar/fiber card, maybe 1/16th of an inch. You can get them from all the major BP sites. I still use the over powder card even if I don't use a grease cookie. It helps protect the base of the bullet from the heat, etc.
I do sometimes worry about the grease cookie sticking to the back of the bullet, and I'm pretty sure that has happened to me once, as I once found a small portion of the grease cookie lodged in the bullet hole at the target.
My overall intent is to get away from the grease cookie with .45 Colt, and am working up several loads to see which will work without. I ordered some Big Lube bullets, so we'll see.
I have not tried the paper over the primer, but I think you can probably dispense with that. If I find a load that shoots well for me, I may then try the paper over the primer to see if that reduces group size. That's a ways down the road.

Cheers,
chowmi

Doc Hoy · August 5, 2012, 02:53 PM

Do you expand your cases?

Tnx,

Chowmif16 · August 6, 2012, 05:48 PM

Doc Hoy,
right now I am expanding them only just enough to get the bullet in without difficulty. I try not to expand too much, as I have the entirely un-researched notion that it will shorten case life!

Cheers,
Chowmi

Hawg · August 6, 2012, 08:03 PM

You can anneal them now and then and they will last a long time. I don't aneal my thin 44-40 cases and they last a fairly long while. I could make them last longer but am too lazy.

Chowmif16 · August 6, 2012, 08:15 PM

Still trying to get over a stomach flu, but hoping to try out some new loads within a couple of days.
.452190's with SPG, over powder card and varying amounts of Goex 3F.
I will try 27.0, 28.0 and 29.0 gr 3F loads and see which my gun likes best.
I could probably get more powder in if I seat the bullets a bit higher, but this will serve as a starting load.
Once I get my Big Lube bullets, I'll try varying loads with those as well.

Hawg, I think I'm too lazy to anneal them as well. Haven't had any problems yet, so it must be okay, right???
Cheers,
Chowmi

Hawg · August 6, 2012, 08:36 PM

Yeah but I probably expand mine more than you do.

Chowmif16 · August 8, 2012, 09:30 PM

Hawg,
It occurred to me that I probably should expand them more than I do sometimes.
When I reload with my progressive, I let the bullet seating station compress my powder. In an effort to be precise while working up new loads, I went to a single stage press and a powder compression die. Since I didn't expand the case enought to fully seat the bullet by hand, I'm now relying on my measurements to insure that the bullet is firmly seated against the over-powder card. I have lost sleep over whether or not I have any air gaps in my newly loaded cartridges with varying amounts of powder (i.e. +/- 2 gr to see which shoots best).
I'd hate to blow up a gun I'm working up a load for...
Chowmi

Chowmif16 · August 9, 2012, 12:05 PM

Well,
my fears have been allayed. Shot those rounds this morning without incident.
I will post my results shortly.

Chowmi

Doc Hoy · August 9, 2012, 12:07 PM

When you load BP do you load by volume or by weight?

What I mean to ask is; Do you weight each load or do you use a volume measure like a spout or telescopic measure?

tater134 · August 9, 2012, 12:32 PM

Quote:

When you load BP do you load by volume or by weight?

What I mean to ask is; Do you weight each load or do you use a volume measure like a spout or telescopic measure?

I load BP shotshells and I've always loaded by volume.

Fingers McGee · August 9, 2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Hoy

When you load BP do you load by volume or by weight?

What I mean to ask is; Do you weight each load or do you use a volume measure like a spout or telescopic measure?

Doc, effectively it is by volume, not weight. I load 38 special, 44-40, and 45-70 BP cartridges on a Hornady Lock-N-Load progressive press. I basically set the powder dispenser to throw enough powder to fill the case so when the bullet is seated I get between 1/16 and 1/8 inch compression on the powder.

I'm not shooting bullseye or long range BP silhouette or any of those precision shooting sports, so I don't have to be picky.

Doc Hoy · August 9, 2012, 01:42 PM

So the process is essentially the same as with cap and ball.

I was fooling with powder and scoops and spouts and found out how different the weights and volumes are. As an example, my 30 grain spout (at least that is what the package said it was) throws a charge of 777 that actually weighs about 17 grains.

I don't have any GOEX right now but I think that GOEX will be different from 777.

BTW, I picked up about 60 pounds of wheel weights yesterday. I am carefully keeping these weights (and the ingots I make from them) separate from the pure lead I am using for roundballs in C/B revolvers.

Fingers McGee · August 9, 2012, 02:40 PM

Doc,

Look at my response on the 'Conundrum of the day' thread for the differece between weighed chagres and flask spouts.

Hawg · August 9, 2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

I picked up about 60 pounds of wheel weights yesterday. I am carefully keeping these weights (and the ingots I make from them) separate from the pure lead I am using for roundballs in C/B revolvers.

If there's any stick on weights in there you can use those in C&B with no problems. Watch out for zinc ones tho. If you don't have your lead pot too hot they will float to the top.

Chowmif16 · August 9, 2012, 07:26 PM

Doc Hoy,
I generally load by volume for my .45 Colt. I have an RCBS progressive loader, and the Lyman BP powder measure fits on it, so I use that.
Since I am working up a new load right now, I weighed each powder charge to eliminate that as a source of error.
When I load 45-70, I weigh each charge.

Chowmi

Doc Hoy · August 9, 2012, 08:36 PM

Yes...

I will separate out the stick on weights and use them as more or less pure lead.

The clip on ones will go into the roughtly 95% pure ingots.

The zinc weights, which are pretty easy to spot will go into the trash.

Doc Hoy · August 9, 2012, 08:46 PM

Yep I read that.

Today I bought a set of those Lee scoops in the 83 different sizes measured in CCs.

The tab with the set does not list Triple Seven but it seems to match pretty close to real black in FFFg.

Doc Hoy · August 9, 2012, 08:50 PM

Finally I came up with some beeswax from a semi serious keeper.

He had a gallon bucket full of dirty combs which he just gave me.

They melted down into about a half pound of good looking wax.

I strained it through a cloth and it came out nice and light.

I am looking forward to making up some lube using one or another of the recipes y'all have posted.

Doc Hoy · August 9, 2012, 08:58 PM

I have the 234 mold from Lee. It is an RNFP 200 grain bullet w/ two rings.

First cartridge I put together was fine. Second one had lead all over the side of the cartridge.

I sat and thought about it for a bit and then measured the diameter of the slug.

It is supposed to be .452. Most of them were .452 on the seam diameter but if I measured ninty degrees off the seam I got consistently .456 to .457.

I did not squeeze the handles to get a tight mating but I did not think that was important. (No day is wasted upon which you learn something.)

Now I am going to try recasting the slugs with a clamp on the mold for consistent mating.

It is fun learning things everyone else already knows. And...No...I am not embarrassed.

B.L.E. · August 10, 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Today I bought a set of those Lee scoops in the 83 different sizes measured in CCs.

The tab with the set does not list Triple Seven but it seems to match pretty close to real black in FFFg.

A CC is about 15 grains of black powder. Black powder subs must be measured by volume as if they were black powder. The actual weight will be considerably less than the volume weight.
Always measure black powder subs by volume unless the loading info specifically state "these charges are by weight".
30 grains volume of 777 does not equal 30 grains weight of 777.
30 grains volume of black powder is very close to 30 grains of weight. Most volumetric powder measures err on the light side, a liability thing I guess.

One example of a black powder substitute where the cartridge load info states that "these charges are by weight, not volume" is the cartridge data for Blackhorn 209 on their website. However, their muzzleloader info is strictly by volume.

What I'm tryin' to say is that when triple seven, pyrodex, et al, state "30 grains", they don't mean it literally.

Doc Hoy · August 10, 2012, 08:18 AM

Yes.... I am with you and I think you put it about as well (at least to me) as I have ever read it.

Loading cartridges this is really convenient.

I have this telescopic contraption which I cobbled together a coupla years ago which allows me to meter out fairly consistent charges of powder.

It is from a CVA 1400 brass flask and a piece of Lucite tube with a plunger that is marked for different charges.

The second mark (volume equal to 35gr.) fills the cartridge to a point where I get about 1/8 inch compression with this 200 grain bullet and a powder card.

I dump it in through a ten inch drop tube and the charge in the case appears to be very consistent from case to case.

Chowmif16 · August 10, 2012, 04:38 PM

Doc,
BLE is right, the subs were made in such a way as that they would deliver a similar charge to BP when measured by volume. The idea being that most ML'ers use volumetric loading practices.

If you are getting "flashing" on the side of your cast bullets, I wouldn't bother using clamps to hold the blocks tighter. It will slow your process, cool the mould blocks and fail to solve the problem.
Usually flashing on the side, or a mould line on the bullet means that you have a small amount of lead that has creeped onto the face of the mould block - either in the mating groove or on the flat. This prevents the blocks from closing completely and leaves a microscopic gap.
Check for a small bright silver-sish spot on the face of your mould blocks. I use either a hobby knife (carefully now...) or some fine steel wool to remove any errant lead on the mould block face.
Also, if this is your first experience casting, there are some excellent resources on various forums about casting. I am by no means and expert, but have been working on it for some time. Mould block temperature is a critical element, so if you can get the mould to a consistent, hot enough temp, you are well on your way.

Cheers,
chowmi

Doc Hoy · August 10, 2012, 06:02 PM

Unfortunately I did three things and I am note certain which one fixed the problem.

The expander die was adjusted incorrectly and so I was not getting enough expansion of the case.

Also, I used the clamp for 100 slugs and now they are measuring a more consistent diameter. (.452 - .454)

I also made a jig that I am using to lube and hand seat the slugs to get them started into the case.

I put the first round together and the lead smear is gone. Made a hundred good looking bullets.

I ruined one case in learning this process.

I have been casting my own round balls for as long as I have been shooting.

I have a good bit of casting experience. I have purchase a total of two boxes of Hornaday round balls in my entire life of shooting BP revolvers (about 35 years). I found I can get better consistency by casting my own.

The clamp adds no time to the process since there is some latent time in getting the slugs out of the mold.

August 3, 2012, 12:28 PM	#77
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Aaaaaapp !!! There we have it!!!! Mykeal DOES have a sense of humor! Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 3, 2012, 12:47 PM	#78
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Wad, grease cookie etc. Doc Hoy, Sorry, I've missed the post for a few days. The grease cookie I use is not a felt wad soaked in lube, it is pure lube. I use a over powder card to protect the powder from the lube. It's a cardboar/fiber card, maybe 1/16th of an inch. You can get them from all the major BP sites. I still use the over powder card even if I don't use a grease cookie. It helps protect the base of the bullet from the heat, etc. I do sometimes worry about the grease cookie sticking to the back of the bullet, and I'm pretty sure that has happened to me once, as I once found a small portion of the grease cookie lodged in the bullet hole at the target. My overall intent is to get away from the grease cookie with .45 Colt, and am working up several loads to see which will work without. I ordered some Big Lube bullets, so we'll see. I have not tried the paper over the primer, but I think you can probably dispense with that. If I find a load that shoots well for me, I may then try the paper over the primer to see if that reduces group size. That's a ways down the road. Cheers, chowmi

August 5, 2012, 02:53 PM	#79
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	F16 Do you expand your cases? Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 6, 2012, 05:48 PM	#80
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Case expansion Doc Hoy, right now I am expanding them only just enough to get the bullet in without difficulty. I try not to expand too much, as I have the entirely un-researched notion that it will shorten case life! Cheers, Chowmi

August 6, 2012, 08:15 PM	#82
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Range tomorrow, I hope Still trying to get over a stomach flu, but hoping to try out some new loads within a couple of days. .452190's with SPG, over powder card and varying amounts of Goex 3F. I will try 27.0, 28.0 and 29.0 gr 3F loads and see which my gun likes best. I could probably get more powder in if I seat the bullets a bit higher, but this will serve as a starting load. Once I get my Big Lube bullets, I'll try varying loads with those as well. Hawg, I think I'm too lazy to anneal them as well. Haven't had any problems yet, so it must be okay, right??? Cheers, Chowmi

August 3, 2012, 11:48 AM	#76
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	No, no, no. Geez. Rolling is for tobacco, not black powder. Loading is for black powder. Try not to get them mixed up. Putting tobacco in your black powder isn't a serious problem, but the other way around could be, well, exciting.

August 6, 2012, 08:03 PM	#81
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,376	You can anneal them now and then and they will last a long time. I don't aneal my thin 44-40 cases and they last a fairly long while. I could make them last longer but am too lazy.

August 6, 2012, 08:36 PM	#83
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,376	Yeah but I probably expand mine more than you do.

August 8, 2012, 09:30 PM	#84
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Case expansion Hawg, It occurred to me that I probably should expand them more than I do sometimes. When I reload with my progressive, I let the bullet seating station compress my powder. In an effort to be precise while working up new loads, I went to a single stage press and a powder compression die. Since I didn't expand the case enought to fully seat the bullet by hand, I'm now relying on my measurements to insure that the bullet is firmly seated against the over-powder card. I have lost sleep over whether or not I have any air gaps in my newly loaded cartridges with varying amounts of powder (i.e. +/- 2 gr to see which shoots best). I'd hate to blow up a gun I'm working up a load for... Chowmi

August 9, 2012, 12:05 PM	#85
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Well, my fears have been allayed. Shot those rounds this morning without incident. I will post my results shortly. Chowmi

August 9, 2012, 12:07 PM	#86
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	chowmiF16 When you load BP do you load by volume or by weight? What I mean to ask is; Do you weight each load or do you use a volume measure like a spout or telescopic measure? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 9, 2012, 01:42 PM	#89
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Got it, Guys. So the process is essentially the same as with cap and ball. I was fooling with powder and scoops and spouts and found out how different the weights and volumes are. As an example, my 30 grain spout (at least that is what the package said it was) throws a charge of 777 that actually weighs about 17 grains. I don't have any GOEX right now but I think that GOEX will be different from 777. BTW, I picked up about 60 pounds of wheel weights yesterday. I am carefully keeping these weights (and the ingots I make from them) separate from the pure lead I am using for roundballs in C/B revolvers. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 9, 2012, 02:40 PM	#90
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Doc, Look at my response on the 'Conundrum of the day' thread for the differece between weighed chagres and flask spouts.

August 9, 2012, 07:26 PM	#92
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	weight or volume? Doc Hoy, I generally load by volume for my .45 Colt. I have an RCBS progressive loader, and the Lyman BP powder measure fits on it, so I use that. Since I am working up a new load right now, I weighed each powder charge to eliminate that as a source of error. When I load 45-70, I weigh each charge. Chowmi

August 9, 2012, 08:36 PM	#93
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Hawg... Yes... I will separate out the stick on weights and use them as more or less pure lead. The clip on ones will go into the roughtly 95% pure ingots. The zinc weights, which are pretty easy to spot will go into the trash. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 9, 2012, 08:46 PM	#94
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	fingers, Yep I read that. Today I bought a set of those Lee scoops in the 83 different sizes measured in CCs. The tab with the set does not list Triple Seven but it seems to match pretty close to real black in FFFg. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 9, 2012, 08:50 PM	#95
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Also scored some bees wax Finally I came up with some beeswax from a semi serious keeper. He had a gallon bucket full of dirty combs which he just gave me. They melted down into about a half pound of good looking wax. I strained it through a cloth and it came out nice and light. I am looking forward to making up some lube using one or another of the recipes y'all have posted. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 9, 2012, 08:58 PM	#96
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I cast some bullets using that Lee mold I have the 234 mold from Lee. It is an RNFP 200 grain bullet w/ two rings. First cartridge I put together was fine. Second one had lead all over the side of the cartridge. I sat and thought about it for a bit and then measured the diameter of the slug. It is supposed to be .452. Most of them were .452 on the seam diameter but if I measured ninty degrees off the seam I got consistently .456 to .457. I did not squeeze the handles to get a tight mating but I did not think that was important. (No day is wasted upon which you learn something.) Now I am going to try recasting the slugs with a clamp on the mold for consistent mating. It is fun learning things everyone else already knows. And...No...I am not embarrassed. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 10, 2012, 08:18 AM	#98
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	BLE Yes.... I am with you and I think you put it about as well (at least to me) as I have ever read it. Loading cartridges this is really convenient. I have this telescopic contraption which I cobbled together a coupla years ago which allows me to meter out fairly consistent charges of powder. It is from a CVA 1400 brass flask and a piece of Lucite tube with a plunger that is marked for different charges. The second mark (volume equal to 35gr.) fills the cartridge to a point where I get about 1/8 inch compression with this 200 grain bullet and a powder card. I dump it in through a ten inch drop tube and the charge in the case appears to be very consistent from case to case. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 10, 2012, 04:38 PM	#99
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Subs and Moulding Doc, BLE is right, the subs were made in such a way as that they would deliver a similar charge to BP when measured by volume. The idea being that most ML'ers use volumetric loading practices. If you are getting "flashing" on the side of your cast bullets, I wouldn't bother using clamps to hold the blocks tighter. It will slow your process, cool the mould blocks and fail to solve the problem. Usually flashing on the side, or a mould line on the bullet means that you have a small amount of lead that has creeped onto the face of the mould block - either in the mating groove or on the flat. This prevents the blocks from closing completely and leaves a microscopic gap. Check for a small bright silver-sish spot on the face of your mould blocks. I use either a hobby knife (carefully now...) or some fine steel wool to remove any errant lead on the mould block face. Also, if this is your first experience casting, there are some excellent resources on various forums about casting. I am by no means and expert, but have been working on it for some time. Mould block temperature is a critical element, so if you can get the mould to a consistent, hot enough temp, you are well on your way. Cheers, chowmi

August 10, 2012, 06:02 PM	#100
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Problem solved Unfortunately I did three things and I am note certain which one fixed the problem. The expander die was adjusted incorrectly and so I was not getting enough expansion of the case. Also, I used the clamp for 100 slugs and now they are measuring a more consistent diameter. (.452 - .454) I also made a jig that I am using to lube and hand seat the slugs to get them started into the case. I put the first round together and the lead smear is gone. Made a hundred good looking bullets. I ruined one case in learning this process. I have been casting my own round balls for as long as I have been shooting. I have a good bit of casting experience. I have purchase a total of two boxes of Hornaday round balls in my entire life of shooting BP revolvers (about 35 years). I found I can get better consistency by casting my own. The clamp adds no time to the process since there is some latent time in getting the slugs out of the mold. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

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