WWII aircraft armament machine guns and cannon

[davidsog]

how did US fighters shoot down so many?

By catching the Me-262 when it was trying to land after it extended its landing gear and dropped it flaps. The Me-262 could not retract it flaps, gear, and accelerate fast enough to avoid such an attack.

Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds.

The Me 262 was difficult to counter because its high speed and rate of climb made it hard to intercept. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target

Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land... On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets.

The British Hawker Tempest scored several kills against the new German jets, including the Messerschmitt Me 262. Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest—extremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed." Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration.

https://history.stackexchange.com/qu...-me-262-in-wwi

[davidsog]

I'm so sad that Germany won the war with their vastly superior equipment.

Objectively speaking, the Germans had very good reasons for their engineering prowness.
They were factually on the cutting edge of modern aerodynamics.

Guess who ran the RLM facilities at Göttingen during WWII....

Ludwig Prandtl (1875–1953) has been called the father of modern aerodynamics. His name is associated most famously with the boundary layer concept, but also with several other topics in 20th-century fluid mechanics, particularly turbulence (Prandtl's mixing length). Among his disciples are pioneers of modern fluid mechanics like Heinrich Blasius, Theodore von Kármán, and Walter Tollmien. Furthermore, Prandtl founded the Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt (AVA) and the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut für Strömungsforschung in Göttingen, nuclei for the growth of fluid mechanics in Germany. In this article I trace this development on the basis of my recent biography of Prandtl.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...31072117300815

The Germans had transonic, supersonic, and even hypersonic wind tunnels. We did not get those until after the war started.

They were correcting for compressibility while NACA was still wondering why they couldn't nail down their velocity measurements. The Germans wrote the book on Compressible Aerodynamics.

https://medium.com/@devavratatripath...y-9f3fbf2c363c

Once more, they had full sized wind tunnels that could put entire aircraft into and study them at wind velocities we could not. That ability alone allowed them to tweak their engine installations and aerodynamics to a high level.





There is a good reason why every allied nation raced to get German Aerodynamicist and Scientist at the end of the war. We would not have made it to the moon without them.

[Pumpkin]

Another occasion when 262’s were shot down at altitude.

I have STILL not read or seen what speed the Me 262’s flew at when attacking bomber formations?

If they slowed down at all, their slow engine response would have left them without their main advantage, SPEED.

To add, 1,200 bombers would have been a target rich environment, would it not.


“During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large-scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. [emphasis added]”

[davidsog]

Another occasion when 262’s were shot down at altitude.

It does not say they were shot down at altitude by Allied fighters.

It says they lost 3 Me262's.

That could be bomber defensive fire, flak, mechanical failures, or shot down on landing.

You do realize that. Of course, 37 vs 1850 isn't good odds.

[Pumpkin]

“But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills:”

This is the heading of the next paragraph pertaining to… air to air kills.

By your way of thinking, maybe half the bombers shot down where by friendly fire, and the others by flak? I’m being a wise arse ;-)

I’m not saying the Germans weren’t awesome engineers and scientists, they were and are.

What a large segment of the population seemed to lack was the ability to be free thinkers.
Too bad more didn’t see through the error in their governments ways, Erwin Rommel comes to mind.

Americans seem to have the knack of being able to adapt and make do with what was commonly available. We might not have the best but there’s a good chance we will have what ends up being good enough.

Ford beating Ferrari at LeMans comes to mind. Don’t reinvent the wheel, just grab a bigger one.

Another Example:
If your fishing boat stopped 20 miles from the shore who would you rather have;
A engineer/scientist or a good mechanic/fabricator?

[davidsog]

“But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills:”

This is the heading of the next paragraph pertaining to… air to air kills.

Your history wiki absolute says that however, The Luftwaffe source they quote does not say a thing about that. It quotes a status report and assumes the losses are air to air.

No doubt the Me-262 experienced air to air losses. It was deployed under simply impossible odds.

Stack Overflow is a question-and-answer website for computer programmers.

The website serves as a platform for users to ask and answer questions, and, through membership and active participation, to vote questions and answers up or down similar to Reddit and edit questions and answers in a fashion similar to a wiki.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_Overflow#Reception

[davidsog]

Americans seem to have the knack of being able to adapt and make do with what was commonly available.

The information is not a dig or judgement. It is just a fact. The RAE, TSAGI, NACA, and everyone else put airplanes in the sky that flew.

I could share a modern fluid computation analysis of the P51D done by a team of engineers working on Strega for the unlimited racing category.

It is obvious how far our understanding has come when they start comparing data from the 1940's. Their understanding of incompressible aerodynamics was at the pinnacle of that field but compressible aerodynamics was a new frontier.

You see things like wind tunnel boundary layer interference corrections non-existant or wrong curve, data points that do not exhibit the correct characteristics of valid data, and so on and so forth. It does not mean that they were useless or stupid. It just means progress has occurred.

One day, men will look back upon our mighty works and think, "How Primitive they were...."

[davidsog]

Here is the Luftwaffe Claims for 18 March 1945:



Here is a list Luftwaffe ME-262 losses:

14.01.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 crashed after combat, pilot killed
16.01.45: Me 262 of II.K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack on Giebelstadt airfield
23.01.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot killed
29.01.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 damaged in strafing attack on Kitzingen airfield
08.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 damaged by friendly anti-aircraft fire, pilot unhurt
09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in combat, pilot wounded
09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
09.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt
09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
14.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt
14.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot killed
14.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot killed
14.02.45: Me 262 of III./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt
15.02.45: Me 262 of 11./N.J.G. 11 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt
16.02.45: Me 262 of III./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack on Obertraubling airfield
17.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
20.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in strafing attack on Giebelstadt airfield
21.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in strafing attack on Giebelstadt airfield
21.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 slightly damaged on mission by ground fire, pilot unhurt
21.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 lost on mission to Nijmegen 16:55-17:55, pilot missing
22.02.45: Me 262 of Stab J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot wounded
22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt
22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot killed
22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt
22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt
22.02.45: Me 262 of K.G. 51 lost on mission, pilot killed
23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in a bombing raid on Neuburg
23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg
23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg
23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg
23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg
23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg
24.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 damaged by enemy fighter on landing at Rheine, pilot unhurt
25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in bombing raid on Giebelstadt
25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 damaged in bombing raid on Giebelstadt
25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in bombing raid on Giebelstadt
25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 damaged in bombing raid on Giebelstadt
25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 damaged in strafing attack on Giebelstadt, pilot wounded
25.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
25.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
25.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
25.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
01.03.45: Me 262 of I./Erg.K.G.(J) shot down in combat, pilot killed
01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot wounded
01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
03.03.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot killed
09.03.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt
13.03.45: Me 262 of K.G. 51 shot down in combat with Thunderbolts, pilot missing
21.03.45: Me 262 of 1./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
22.03.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot wounded
21.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt
31.03.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed
07.04.45: Me 262 of 1./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot wounded
01.04.45: Me 262 slightly damaged in strafing attack on Schwäbisch Hall
01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen
01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen
01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen
01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen
01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen
01.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing on operation over Berlin
04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. destroyed in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. destroyed in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. damaged in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. missing after combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. missing after combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. missing after combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. destroyed in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. destroyed in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. lost in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. lost in combat
04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. lost in combat
05.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat
05.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat
05.04.45: Me 262 of Jagdverband Galland lost in combat
07.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat
07.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat
07.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat
10.04.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 shot down by enemy fighter while landing, pilot wounded
10.04.45: Me 262 of 3./K.G.(J) 54 shot down by enemy fighter while landing, pilot wounded
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps missing after mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps missing after mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps missing after mission
17.04.45: Me 262 of Jagdverband 44 lost on mission
19.04.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down by enemy fighter while landing, pilot killed
29.04.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack
29.04.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack
29.04.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack

SourcesGenst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. Luftwaffe Loss Material
Kampfgeschwader 54 – von der Ju 52 zur Me 262
Luftwaffe Situation Reports 1945

Most importantly, 18 Mar 1945 was the very first use by JG7 of the R4M rocket system.

On 18 March 1945 nearly 1,200 American heavy bombers attacked railway and armaments
factories in the Berlin area. They were escorted by 426 fighters. 9./JG 7 put up six Me 262s, each fitted with two underwing batteries of the new R4M rockets. The jets intercepted the bombers over Rathenow and a total of 144 rockets was fired into the American formation from distances of between 400 and 600 m. Pilots reported astonishing amounts of debris and aluminium fragments – pieces of wing, engines and cockpits flew through the
air from aircraft hit by the missiles.

Oberfähnrich Walter Windisch was one of the first pilots of JG 7 to experience the effect of the R4M in operational conditions. He recalled:

‘Flying the Me 262 was like a kind of ‘life insurance’, but I was on that first sortie on 18 March during which R4M rockets were used and I experienced something beyond my conception. The destructive effect against the targets was immense. It almost gave me a feeling of being invincible. However, the launching grids for the rockets were not of optimum design – they were still too rough and ready, and compared with conventionally powered aircraft, when you went into a turn with the Me 262, flying became a lot more difficult because the trimming was not too good.’

https://www.ospreypublishing.com/uk/...shock-and-awe/

Obviously JG7 had Me262's damaged that day. Most likely, the damage made it onto a status report for a short period of time and when repaired those aircraft came back as operational.

[davidsog]

Here is a list of all Allied Me262 kill claims. There are 4 P51 claims on the 19Mar1945 but nothing on the 18Mar1945.



Sources:
USAAF (European Theater) Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat, World War 2, Victory List No. 5, Frank J. Olynyk, May 1987.
USAAF (Mediterranean Theater) Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat, World War 2, Victory List No. 6, Frank J. Olynyk, June 1987.
USAF Historical Study No. 85, USAF Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft, World War II, Albert F. Simpson Historical Research Center, 1978.
Combat Squadrons of the Air Force, World War II, edited by Maurer Maurer, 1969. Air Force Combat Units of World War II, edited by Maurer Maurer, 1983.
Compiled by:

Patsy Robertson, Historian
Organizational Histories Division, Air Force Historical Research Agency March 2010

[44 AMP]

Interesting how the (partial) lists don't match up well. Not just the usual differences between claims and admitted losses, but also days when there were claims and no admitted losses, and days when there were losses and no claims.

I also found it curious that the list of Allied claims uses the German date system, (day/month/year) but without the periods between the numbers the way the Germans do it.


Fog of war, I suppose....

[davidsog]

Interesting how the (partial) lists don't match up well.

We are not lining up Allied losses with German Claims just the Me262 losses with Allied Claims. That would be listing the Allied losses from the units which we haven't done. If you have that data, please post it.

Lining up the Me-262 stuff is probably some of the most frustrating niche areas you can pick. Very few of the Allied claims line up with the Luftwaffe records.

There was combat on 19 March 1945 between JG7 and P-51's. They claimed one P-51 shot down.



Honestly, I highly doubt the German pilots, outnumbered by thousands would feel like:

‘Flying the Me 262 was like a kind of ‘life insurance’,

If they were getting shot down in droves by Allied fighters.

All the allied claims were made in good faith but you're talking a lot of fleeting snapshots.

We used to travel a lot slower than 100 mph down roads in Afghanistan with guys much closer than 400 yards who shot a lot of bullets without hitting any of us.....

[RC20]

There is a good reason why every allied nation raced to get German Aerodynamicist and Scientist at the end of the war. We would not have made it to the moon without them.

I would put it differently. Some of the "race" was to keep stuff out of Russian hands. Some of it was to see what the German Data was for the same investigations. Some like U boat (21?) was a mystery that the US/UK wanted resolved. Big battery with a different hull.

Its not like the UK and the US did not have jet engines.

What we did not have was V2. And sadly Von Braun got out of the noose due to his background in rockets.

[RC20]

We used to travel a lot slower than 100 mph down roads in Afghanistan with guys much closer than 400 yards who shot a lot of bullets without hitting any of us.....

And some believe you could hit a specific part of a tank from an aircraft with a slow firing cannon!

[RC20]

I have a good read going by Bobby Oxspring. He mentions the 10 seconds of firing they had with the 303 guns.

I am still reading, not sure yet what his score was. His father was impressive in WWI though his career was cut short when he crashed after hitting another allied aircraft (he was cruising home and the other guy was climbing, wrong place at the wrong time)

He does say they were very happy with the bot the Spit Vb with two 20mm cannons.

[RC20]

It should be noted that the ME-262 had to engage to shoot down anything. They were not going to scare the allies out of the air!

So yea, be it a bomber or a fighter, engaged meant exposure.

That gets into how do you engage slower targets? If you go full out you get few shots, if you slow down then you are subject to getting targeted yourself.

The swept wings were not speed issues, it was a weight and balance as the original 262 was a tail drager (kind of a problem with the jet exhaust burning the ground and the tactic was to move around airfield to avoid the US/UK)

Its also noting that they needed two engines when the US and UK were getting power that matched the 262 with a single engine (interesting comparison of a P-80 and a 262).

Reality was the 262 engine were throw away. Reality of Germany and the precious metals they did not have at that time.

The 30mm cannons were also a reality of needing to combat the bombers, 20mm plenty for a fighter (well 4 to 8 50 cal were, 4 in the Pacific though 6 was prominent post the early Wildcat)

Interesting is the 262 did pioneer the axial flow engine and the centrifugal flow engine was a dead end. The MIG-15 was quite the dead end though.

[44 AMP]

Why does everyone today bitch so much about what the Me 262 wasn't??

It was a technology demonstrator, advanced enough that despite its development being retarded by the Nazi administration, was able to be turned into an effective combat weapon when it was finally put into production and get to service units.

Too little, too late to change anything major, of course, even if you are 100mph faster than your enemy, (in a straight line) when its 40 (or less) against 5-600 you aren't going to change the outcome of the war.

And I don't think the Germans consider their jet engines to be "throw away" items. Yes, they had short service lives, all the early jets did. The heavy cannon armament made sense for an aircraft who's job was to knock down heavy bombers, which were the primary threat to the Reich.

Friend of mine showed me an interesting book today, I will have a chance to read it soon, but a glance shows some interesting things.

GERMAN JETS VS US ARMY AIRFORCE
Wm N. Hess (Specialty Press 1996)

The book contains listings of every confirmed jet kill claimed by the 8th, 9th,15th and 1st Tactical Air Forces.

The first Me 262 listed was shot down was on 28 Aug 1944.

I'm sure it will be an interesting read when I get to it.
Probably raise as many questions as it answers, history is often that way.

[davidsog]

The book contains listings of every confirmed jet kill claimed by the 8th, 9th,15th and 1st Tactical Air Forces.

Please share.

The list I have says 157 claimed jet kills from:

Sources:
USAAF (European Theater) Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat, World War 2, Victory List No. 5, Frank J. Olynyk, May 1987.
USAAF (Mediterranean Theater) Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat, World War 2, Victory List No. 6, Frank J. Olynyk, June 1987.
USAF Historical Study No. 85, USAF Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft, World War II, Albert F. Simpson Historical Research Center, 1978.
Combat Squadrons of the Air Force, World War II, edited by Maurer Maurer, 1969. Air Force Combat Units of World War II, edited by Maurer Maurer, 1983.
Compiled by:

Patsy Robertson, Historian
Organizational Histories Division, Air Force Historical Research Agency March 2010

The first Me 262 listed was shot down was on 28 Aug 1944.

The pilot Oberfeldwebel Hieronymus Lauer was on a ferry flight with an unarmed aircraft when was bounced on landing. In evading the P-47's he crashed his plane.

Credit for the first Me 262 be brought down in combat belong to Maj Joseph Myers and 2Lt Manford Crory of the P-47D-equipped 78th Fighter Group, who manoeuvred a 1./KG 51 machine into the ground west of Brussels on August 28, 1944. This occurred with a shot being fired by both sides. A similar thing occurred on October 2, 1944 when P-47D pilot 1Lt Valmore Beaudrault of the 356th Fighter Group ran an Me 262 out of fuel in a low-level pursuit into the ground near Dusseldorf. Astonishingly, the pilot of the jet on both occasions was Oberfeldwebel Hieronymous Lauer who survived both encounters.

https://donaldnijboer.com/who-shot-d...-world-war-ii/

[davidsog]

Its not like the UK and the US did not have jet engines.

We did, just not as refined...

The Germans knew of the benefits of swept wings on compressibility and transonic flight when designing the Me-262.

That is why the decision to go with sweeping the wing instead of moving the wing when the Jumo 003 engine was selected over the BMW.

In fact, a 35 degree sweep was decided on but not adopted as it would have been a major redesign. That prototype was not only built, it ready for flight testing at Rechlin when it was bombed in wars last few days.

By 1945 the entire German aircraft industry had a multitude
of experimental swept-wing aircraft and missile designs in a final
realization phase. Also, aMe 262 had been retrofitted with a 35-deg
arrow wing and was ready for first flight. A further version (Me 262
HG II) with 45-deg sweepback was under final construction at the
end of WWII. The first true industry project utilizing an aft-sweptwing
conceptwas the P 1101 designed by Messerschmitt in 1944/45
(Ref. 6).

1) German AVA/LFA/DVL wind-tunnel data gave proof in 1940
that Busemann’s 1935 supersonic swept-wing theory is also applicable
for subsonic compressibility effects.
2) The beginnings of area ruling can be traced back to Junkers’
patent in 1943.
3) Artificial stability (philosophy, Heinkel; theory, Fischel, 1940)
was first demonstrated by DVL’s rate gyro controlled yaw damper
(1944).
4) The existence of LFA Voelkenrode came as a complete surprise
to the Americans and British after WWII.
5) Only after von Karman and his scientific advisory team arrived
in Germany was the totality of the German aeronautical research and
design effort revealed.
6) German swept-wing wind-tunnel data dispelled U.S. doubts
regarding the validity of R. T. Jones’ theoretical work.
7) To preserve that scientific picture of LFA and AVA, every
hardware and technical data were boxed up and shipped off mainly
to Wright Field and to Bedford, United Kingdom.
8) Fairly extensive German wind-tunnel data were used for future
swept-wing designs in the United States, Russia, United Kingdom,
France, and Sweden.

From:

[davidsog]

Theodore Von Karman was our guy during WWII that basically pushed the NACA in the field of compressible aerodynamics. He was General Arnold's Science Advisor which saw him butting heads with NACA for much of the war trying to get them to as well as his colleges in the Royal Aircraft Establishment to pursue certain lines of research he knew Prandtl was pushing.

Theodore Von Karman was not only a friend to Prandtl, He was his student.

Von Karman was to study under the acclaimed Ludwig Prandtl, the distinguished professor of fluid mechanics and head of the Department of Applied
Physics who many would later acknowledge as the “father of aerodynamics.”

For the next few years, von Karman served as Prandtl’s
assistant at Gottingen.

https://www.aahs-online.org/pubs/jou...les/582082.pdf

From:

Theodore von Karman, the “Martian”
Who Changed the Way We Fly
An Aerodynamicist Used an Ercoupe to Jumpstart the U.S.
Missile and Space Programs

Authored by:

Author
Author Philip Handleman has been an active pilot for many
years. He currently owns and fl ies vintage aircraft including a
WWII-era Stearman biplane.
Mr. Handleman has written or edited 22 aviation books.
His Air Combat Reader (Potomac Books/Fall River Press) is
in its fourth edition. It was co-edited with retired Air Force
Col. Walter J. Boyne, the former Director of the Smithsonian
Institution’s National Air and Space Museum. This anthology
was selected by the Air Force Association as its offi cial gift
to the more than 50 speakers at its annual Air and Space
Conference in 2012 where presenters included the Chairman of
the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Air Force Chief of Staff.
Mr. Handleman has had nearly 100 articles published in
magazines and newspapers. His writing has appeared in a
diverse array of publications from the U.S. Naval Institute’s
Proceedings to USA Today.
Mr. Handleman is President of Handleman Filmworks that
has produced award-winning public television documentaries.
His production Remembering the Holocaust received the
Emmy for best documentary from the Michigan Chapter of the
National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. Also, Mr.
Handleman’s documentary about Vietnam-era MIAs/POWs,
Our Missing in Action, received the First-Place Award from
the Michigan Sesquicentennial Film and Video Festival.
Mr. Handleman’s still photography has been featured
on U.S. postage stamps, notably those commemorating the
50th anniversaries of the Air Force (1997) and the Air Force
Academy (2004). The stamps had print runs of approximately
45 million and 60 million, respectively.
The Tuskegee Airmen National Historical Museum
recognized Mr. Handleman with its Outstanding Achievement
Award in 1997 and its Lifetime Distinguished Achievement
Award in 2005. Mr. Handleman received the Harriet Quimby
Award from the Michigan Aviation Hall of Fame in 2008. Also,
Mr. Handleman received the Combs Gates Award from the
National Aviation Hall of Fame in 2010.
Mr. Handleman graduated from Washington University
and subsequently completed the Executive Academy at
the University of Michigan’s Graduate School of Business
Administration. He and his wife, Mary, divide their time
between their home in Birmingham,

[Pumpkin]

So let me ask, one more time in a different way.

Did the Me 262’s have a minimum speed allowed during engagement?

Again, I have my doubts they were at full speed during a good part of the interception.

If…they slowed down, wouldn’t this have created a less than optimum situation, I believe it would have.

[davidsog]

Did the Me 262’s have a minimum speed allowed during engagement?

Yes. All aircraft have performance numbers. Flying below them is not recommended and will not give you the maximum performance the pilot is seeking.

Airplanes are flown by their "numbers". Maximum performance occurs at specific airspeeds. Good Pilots know their aircraft performance numbers and use that to extract the performance they need.

If your aircraft's performance numbers are faster than your opponents and you fly those numbers then you have an advantage in the dogfight.

The P51's numbers are faster than the Spitfires in general making it the superior dogfighter despite not being able to turn as tightly at the slower speeds the Spitfire can attain. That depends greatly on which P51 and which Spitfire model. Piston engine fighters were at the pinnacle of their development at the end of WWII. There really isn't much to choose from no matter what as long as the aircraft were at that developmental level.

That is why the P51 has more kills than the Spitfire despite a much shorter time in combat.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...&postcount=484

If…they slowed down, wouldn’t this have created a less than optimum situation, I believe it would have.

It absolutely did. All aircraft have to slow down to land. That is the entire reason flaps are put there to help slow the plane down so it can stop once on the runway and lower the AoA enough for the pilot to see the intended landing site.

Jets have very different aerodynamic characteristics from propeller aircraft.
It's beyond the scope of this thread to teach an aircraft performance class.

Power Available to Power Required is the basis of all aircraft performance.

A propeller aircraft can hit the throttle at the stall and power out because it produces power. In fact, the slower a propeller aircraft goes, the more thrust it produces and a 180hp Lycoming O360A1A in a Cessna 172 makes as much thrust as most airliner Jet engines a 1 mph. At 2mph, it makes half that amount of thrust.

A Jet engine produces thrust. A Jumo 004 in the Me-262 produced 1980lbs of thrust sitting still or going 500mph. Therefore its power changes with velocity. The slower a Jet goes, the less power it produces. At the stall, Thrust = Drag in a jet and it has no ability to power out of the stall. Now that is most jets, modern fighters produced more thrust than their weight so that gives them the ability to power out.

Most jets cannot do that and the Me-262 certainly could not. When it was configured to land, it had to land. If it went around the drag picture had to change either by lowering the nose to increase speed, retracting the flaps or gear to change drag. Just setting the throttles up would not do anything.

That made them very vulnerable when taking off or landing. Up until the 1980's, all jets were in that situation.

It's why jets can do the "Sabre Dance". A lethal situation caused by rotating too early where the jet does not have enough thrust to rise out of ground effect.

You can see this poor Sabre pilot hit the afterburner in a desperate attempt to save his own life after trying to force the aircraft to fly on an early rotation. He cannot make enough power to save himself.

https://youtu.be/Q2qqKwndFW0?si=oxdoyUjgn_TDw1Kp

[RC20]

So let me ask, one more time in a different way.

Did the Me 262’s have a minimum speed allowed during engagement?

Again, I have my doubts they were at full speed during a good part of the interception.

The answer above is not what you asked I do not believe.

If I have it right you are interested in if they slowed down deliberately for a firing pass.

I can't answer the question, I don't know enough about tactics of the ME-262.

I do know the Germans used head on attacks with their piston fighters but found it not effective as other aspect gun runs. From memory those were high and quarter passes. Only one turret would target them though waist gunners would have some angle. But then you have a whole formation of bombers to deal with. And then the bombers shooting each other, hmmm.

My best guess is they would not slow down as that negated an advantage in making turret firing solutions hard vs bombers.

Probably dive and zoom vs fighters. But keep in mind, end of war German pilots of any experience were getting scarce. So you would have rookie pilot errors.

I have watched a few of the Game of Typhoon vs 262 and have seen the players of the 262 slow down and get shot up. So even reading tactics bad move but also not just rookie pilots but low training time and no jet introduction, you got in and away you went.

To correct the engine issue. The Germans knew they were throw away engines, they knew they needed high temp metals they did not have.

Much like the Panther, you could make whole tanks or you could make parts but not production for both. So to at least mid 44 service broke down without spares.

Latter that was improved but production capability was limited so trying to make numbers and spare parts was a offset.

[davidsog]

I do know the Germans used head on attacks with their piston fighters but found it not effective as other aspect gun runs.

Exactly, the head on attack was the standard method the Luftwaffe used to normal fighter attacks. It was the most effective and most survivable.
The Sturmstaffel's used a rear attack and Me-262 pilots went back to using a rear attack method due to their high speeds. The closure rate was just too fast in an Me-262 for the normal frontal attack.

Since the jets were so fast, the closure rate from the rear was high enough to keep them safe while being lower than the normal frontal attacks using a conventional fighter.

My best guess is they would not slow down as that negated an advantage in making turret firing solutions hard vs bombers.

Slowing down would be a guaranteed death. It would be stupid flying a jet and they did not do that.

[davidsog]

One Luftwaffe pilot said that trying to attack a B-17 formation from behind was like “trying to make love to a porcupine that is on fire.”

“Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down, or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But to curve in towards 40 Fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes. And when you yourself have reached this state of mind, it becomes that much more difficult to have to drive every pilot of the Geschwader, right down to the youngest and lowliest NCO, to do the same.”

---Hans Philipp in a letter to Hannes Trautloft, 4 October 1943.

Philipp was KIA 4 days later, possibly By Robert S. Johnson, during a raid on Bremen.

https://warhistory.org/@msw/article/...he-german-side

[Pumpkin]

RC,

“The answer above is not what you asked I do not believe.”

You are exactly correct. I think I have grasped the taking off/landing vulnerability of the 262 from previous attempts ;-)

So how fast were the Mig 15’s going when attacking a B-29?

I seem to remember an attack from the rear could be deadly for the Mig.